Author |
Message |
|
|
|
Advert
|
Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
- No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
- Times and dates in your local timezone.
- Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
- Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
- Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now. |
|
|
2024/04/29 15:30:54
Subject: Re:[LI] Thoughts on legions so far
|
|
Joined the Military for Authentic Experience
On an Express Elevator to Hell!!
|
SamusDrake wrote:Suggesting 3K points for a standard game also didn't help, when 2K was plenty.
Certainly at my local I haven't seen anyone wanting to play 3k. 1.5/2k is just possible to squeeze in before closing time, and the Legions guys are usually the last ones there playing (after the Necromunda guys, which is saying something!)
ccs wrote: General Kroll wrote:How are people finding Titans behave/perform in the game?
Is it better to have one big scary one, or multiple Warhounds or something?
I'll use them on occasion as I just like the models. But so far none of them have impressed me. The Reaver especially so. For the pts cost I'll just usually take more tanks.
I haven't used the Dire wolves yet though as they're sitting on my desk waiting to be built.
For me, the only purposes for Titans at the moment are 1) Helping to bulk up points if you don't have enough other units 2) look on the tabletop, as they look great.
I think I've had one instance where a Warhound has survived more than one round of stuff shooting at it, and there was more to do with the horrendous luck on my opponents part and some flukey armour saves on mine.
It's almost like they looked at Armageddon as a template for how Titans would work, as just a multi-wound weapons platform, but then didn't account for how much more deadly firepower is (and how much more of it there is) in this game. And I do miss the hit charts of Epic Space Marine, where you could end up with a Reaver with no arms trying to run around and stomp on stuff, or could equally go down to one lucky shot at the start of the game.
|
|
|
|
|
2024/05/06 12:06:57
Subject: [LI] Thoughts on legions so far
|
|
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon
|
For those with a fair few games under their belts? I’d like to talk Sponsons.
See, all my tanks that have sponsons I’ve given Lascannon Sponsons. Yes infantry get their full save, but the increased range and accuracy appealed to me more, as is the reliability to strip Void Shields and knacker Tanks.
But….Heavy Bolters of course have point defence. And not having played yet, I’ve no idea how desirable that trait is?
|
|
|
|
|
2024/05/06 12:21:21
Subject: [LI] Thoughts on legions so far
|
|
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
Point Defence is amongst the most desirable traits in the whole game, in particular when you're playing against infantry heavy lists.
LI is built with the paradigm that stuff will die and you will be shoveling models off the table. With Point Defence, particularly on stuff like Rhino Havocs, Sicaran HB's and so on, you get to throw out a lot of dice before the shooting phase proper begins or if you're being swamped by charging infantry. It's very economical in the activation war.
|
|
|
|
|
2024/05/06 12:32:25
Subject: [LI] Thoughts on legions so far
|
|
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon
|
Think I’ll have to equip my second Sicaran squadron with Heavy Bolters then. Plus a bit of variety never goes amiss.
|
|
|
|
|
2024/05/06 14:27:40
Subject: [LI] Thoughts on legions so far
|
|
Posts with Authority
|
From the last video I posted in the LI news thread, I got the impression than you will almost always want to max out on point defence, infantry and walkers/dreads. Warmaster is the only titan worth fielding, apparently.
Not a fan of the fact that a game which features such adorable lil tanks and vehicles.. has rules which make tanks not worth their points
|
"The larger point though, is that as players, we have more control over what the game looks and feels like than most of us are willing to use in order to solve our own problems" |
|
|
|
2024/05/06 21:25:31
Subject: [LI] Thoughts on legions so far
|
|
Esteemed Veteran Space Marine
UK
|
Talking of sponsons, the predator sheet gives the sponson 1 shot. Is that 1 shot or sponson, or 1 shot per model?
|
|
|
|
|
2024/05/07 05:41:40
Subject: [LI] Thoughts on legions so far
|
|
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
General Kroll wrote:Talking of sponsons, the predator sheet gives the sponson 1 shot. Is that 1 shot or sponson, or 1 shot per model?
One per model, cannon is the plural of cannon. You get precisely the number of weapons listed on the unit entry, no more.
|
|
|
|
|
2024/05/07 08:47:26
Subject: [LI] Thoughts on legions so far
|
|
Esteemed Veteran Space Marine
UK
|
Sherrypie wrote: General Kroll wrote:Talking of sponsons, the predator sheet gives the sponson 1 shot. Is that 1 shot or sponson, or 1 shot per model?
One per model, cannon is the plural of cannon. You get precisely the number of weapons listed on the unit entry, no more.
It’s very inconsistent in the rules though. Some sponson weapons are listed as “sponsons” others as singular. And if we look at things like heavy bolters, they generally get two shots a piece, the hull heavy bolter on a sicaran gets 2, if we take your view of the sponsons then the sponsons get one shot less.
Standard GW inconsistency, right?
|
|
|
|
|
2024/05/07 09:38:20
Subject: [LI] Thoughts on legions so far
|
|
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
the "so thats per sponson right?" question came up early on, the consensus is basically "don't think about it just roll the dice on the sheet"
which given how deadly the game is also works as the best outcome as it reduces firepower.
on "point defence" the fire during movement bit is very useful, e.g. pushing Rhinos forwards to at least try to take down some infantry before it gets to move/assault
I've gone with tank units having a mix of point defence and anti tank secondary weapons so all units have some point defence, its not worth going 100% point defence but the ability to split fire is very useful
|
|
|
|
2024/05/07 10:51:13
Subject: [LI] Thoughts on legions so far
|
|
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
General Kroll wrote: Sherrypie wrote: General Kroll wrote:Talking of sponsons, the predator sheet gives the sponson 1 shot. Is that 1 shot or sponson, or 1 shot per model?
One per model, cannon is the plural of cannon. You get precisely the number of weapons listed on the unit entry, no more.
It’s very inconsistent in the rules though. Some sponson weapons are listed as “sponsons” others as singular. And if we look at things like heavy bolters, they generally get two shots a piece, the hull heavy bolter on a sicaran gets 2, if we take your view of the sponsons then the sponsons get one shot less.
Standard GW inconsistency, right?
Actually, for once, it isn't. The rules corpus uses the same language for this particular thing very consistently throughout the whole book. As leopard says, this was discussed a lot after the initial release. For example, those Predators list "Sponson Mounted Heavy Bolters" (one weapon ruleswise, 2 Dice) and "Sponson Mounted Lascannon" (one weapon ruleswise, 1 Dice), from which you get to choose one. Where "sponsons" is used in plural, like the Baneblade, weapons like "Lascannon sponson turrets" or "Baneblade heavy bolter sponsons" are again single entries combining all the relevant sponsons of that type on the model. That classic English plural cannon is used in pretty much every entry in the army lists. Most clearly you can see the difference in the Imperial Fists special rule on page 159, where they list weapons as such:
- Legion bolters
• Legion combi-bolters
• Legion bolt pistols
• Missile launchers
• Plasma cannon
• Lascannon
• Autocannon
• Heavy bolters
And yeah, generally the combined sponsons fire as much as one hull-mounted weapon system of the same kind. That is the design choice they have gone with, possibly to represent the sponsons being limited to side arcs in-fiction while the game system only concerns itself with the front and rear arcs. It is similarly largely consistent throughout the lists and not at all unusual for games of this scale.
There is plenty of questionable design cunk in the game, but "do I get more weapons than is listed in the unit entry?" is not one of them. The answer is simply no, English is a silly language but you only get what is listed.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2024/05/07 10:55:54
|
|
|
|
2024/05/07 12:19:01
Subject: [LI] Thoughts on legions so far
|
|
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
the confusion came from some things that you have more than one of being described in the plural, and others that you have more than one of, in the singular
personally it stems from making individual weapons too powerful such that giving a predator both sponsons for the laser cannons starts to get silly, well sillier
would have helped for there to be a very quick example in the rulebook of say three predators shooting at something noting that they have three dice for the turrets, with the re-rolls then three for the sponson mounts, without re-rolls.
in effect each line being a weapon system, not an individual weapon, it could have been clearer - as evidenced by it even being a point of discussion.
it is however I think largely accepted water under the bridge at this point in how to run it
personally I'd have gone with "per weapon" and either a lower chance to hit on non-primary weapons or more restricted arcs (which the game used to have without any issues - and which can create some interesting tactics around forcing rear armour to be exposed to fire all guns or accepting fewer shots for better armour)
however it is very firmly what it is
|
|
|
|
2024/05/13 11:19:29
Subject: [LI] Thoughts on legions so far
|
|
Joined the Military for Authentic Experience
On an Express Elevator to Hell!!
|
Got to play in an event over the weekend, my takeaways:
- Not sure if anecdotal, but Legions is one of 'those games' (perhaps like 28mm Heresy) where people seem to take a lot of time painting and presenting their armies. I don't think there was any grey on display and you can see a lot of effort went into it, there is such a great visual aspect.
- I enjoy playing! The two armies, on nice terrain, has a wonderful aesthetic. If nothing else, you can take that away.
- It is not possible to play three games in a day and have them played through to anything like a satisfying conclusion. Despite 3hrs per game most people only played two turns, if that, with a couple that finished after 1 turn because of concession. And this was a 2k soft 'narrative' game where lots of rule disputes and queries got waved through or decided with a dice-off. I would say at full points and a more competitive tournament scenario? The game is absolutely not suitable and you would struggle to finish 2 games in a day.
- There is just way, way too much crunch and granular detail in not only the rules and weapons loadouts. So much of the playing time is spent looking up ("hang on..this vehicle has an auto cannon") and completely unintuitive (needlessly complex) special rules. I cannot understand how Jervis Johnson came up with such a wonderfully abstract mechanism for Armageddon (one weapon type is anti armour, one is anti infantry) and then for this to be completely ignored for a subsequent edition. It's like someone creating headlights for cars to stop them crashing at night time, and then a subsequent vehicle to be designed without them.
- the VP system needs to be reworked. This event had cut back on VPs per turn to allow people to catch up if they didn't have infiltrating armies, but a lot of the time you can see the result of the game by midway of turn 2. Did they not play any previous versions of Epic and see how it worked in SM 2nd for example?
- Titans are useful as a points sink if you are otherwise short and unable to play, but otherwise a waste of time. Mine didn't get anywhere close to making it's points back, everyone I spoke to said likewise. Think they need a major rework, beyond a rebalancing of their points and weaponry. Perhaps worst of all, other than their visual look on the tabletop, they are just boring to use.
Anyway just some more thoughts on the game. I still enjoy playing it, and it's great fun at the moment as you can get games and events easily, and we have the lovely new models range. But as a rules system, it has deep flaws that I would say put it below Epic Space Marine and it isn't worthy to even crawl in the shadow of Armageddon.
|
|
|
|
|
2024/05/13 13:23:18
Subject: [LI] Thoughts on legions so far
|
|
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon
|
On the pace of games, do you think that’ll improve as people gain greater playing experience?
|
|
|
|
|
2024/05/13 14:19:33
Subject: [LI] Thoughts on legions so far
|
|
Joined the Military for Authentic Experience
On an Express Elevator to Hell!!
|
It might come down a little, but I don't think significantly. A lot of the guys playing are 6 months in and 20+ games and were still not getting beyond turn 2.
Sorry another list! But a few of my thoughts as to why:
- Alternative movement activation. I know a lot of people prefer this (with good reason) but it is much slower to play.
Epic Armageddon had a much smaller model count so perhaps could get away with it.
- There are too many stat lines, even for a single vehicle profile, to remember without having to reference the rules. Stat lines in other versions of Epic were much smaller and simpler and could be remembered, and each check of an app or rulebook takes time. (I am referring to the general player here, not the person who will no doubt reply to this "I have no problem at all remembering 80 lines of stats and special rules")
Also the fact that all of the weapons have different special rules that apply in context. So you end up with a couple of dice that give -1 armour, this dice you have to re-roll successful saves, this dice is exploding 6s. All of this stuff slows down the flow of the game as you can't just roll dice and apply a result and it can take 5 minutes just to apply one units actions.
- Lots of very specific unit rules that have to do their own thing rather than being rolled up into other actions; my fliers are taking intercept shots, these tarantulas need to be activated and fire in a different way etc.
There is just so much granular detail of 'stuff' that I think you would usually see in a skirmish game, rather than massive battle.
I would say it's fine if you are happy to have an afternoon to knife and fork through a very detailed game, but it has made the game not really well suited to big event or tournie type games - perhaps a bit more like Necromunda, where you are playing one game as part of a campaign, and whoops we are still playing it's almost midnight (and if that doesn't matter that much to you).
|
|
|
|
|
2024/05/13 18:49:55
Subject: [LI] Thoughts on legions so far
|
|
Ork Boy Hangin' off a Trukk
Scotland
|
I love this game. I take on board a lot of points from above and concede that a tournament setting probably wouldn't suit this.
However I won't be going anywhere near any tournaments so I'm happy. This seems more suited to a relaxed game style with enjoyment the aim and not just winning. My group are partway through a narrative campaign and we're having a blast. I think we're lucky as most of us come.from a RPG background into wargaming. We have a few excellent storytelling players who are producing some excellent material for us.
After spending so long painting 40k models, I'm finding these a joy to paint. Enough detail to standout without making it difficult to paint.
I'm looking forward to the next releases and eager for the Mechanicus to appear.
My main scenery project is for further down the line when we start to play the assault on the Emperor's Palace. Lots of planning needs to go into this.
|
|
|
|
2024/05/14 07:54:24
Subject: Re:[LI] Thoughts on legions so far
|
|
Fixture of Dakka
|
I certainly wouldn't be going out of my way to make it work as a tournament game in it's current state.
I'm guessing that Legions will probably be relaunched as soon as GW can do so. Likely a revised core book and both AT and AI will be discontinued, to focus on just Heresy and Legions.
|
Casual gaming, mostly solo-coop these days.
|
|
|
|
2024/05/14 08:15:41
Subject: [LI] Thoughts on legions so far
|
|
Joined the Military for Authentic Experience
On an Express Elevator to Hell!!
|
Jaxmeister wrote:I love this game. I take on board a lot of points from above and concede that a tournament setting probably wouldn't suit this.
However I won't be going anywhere near any tournaments so I'm happy. This seems more suited to a relaxed game style with enjoyment the aim and not just winning. My group are partway through a narrative campaign and we're having a blast. I think we're lucky as most of us come.from a RPG background into wargaming. We have a few excellent storytelling players who are producing some excellent material for us.
I should have added the caveat that I do still enjoy playing the game (it is Epic!) but agree the sort of loose narrative game, bunch of close playing acquaintances with 4 or 5 hours to play on a weekend day is the best way to get the most of the game.
|
|
|
|
|
2024/05/14 08:34:02
Subject: [LI] Thoughts on legions so far
|
|
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon
|
Thankfully, my FLGS does £2 for all-day use of their facilities.
I need to go read the rules, start digesting and then see if there’s anyone locally that fancies a kicking. There must be, because I’m not the only one denuding its shelves of Legions Imperialis! Or Age of Darkness for that matter.
|
|
|
|
|
2024/05/14 13:24:52
Subject: [LI] Thoughts on legions so far
|
|
Regular Dakkanaut
|
I agree mostly with Pacific.
What surprises me is that games do not come to a conclusion. I have also played 20+ games, and by end of turn 2 there is a clear winner -> so all games are bellow the 2 hour duration.
Pacific wrote:Did they not play any previous versions of Epic and see how it worked in SM 2nd for example?
NO, they did not.
|
|
|
|
2024/05/14 15:56:57
Subject: [LI] Thoughts on legions so far
|
|
Joined the Military for Authentic Experience
On an Express Elevator to Hell!!
|
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Thankfully, my FLGS does £2 for all-day use of their facilities.
I need to go read the rules, start digesting and then see if there’s anyone locally that fancies a kicking. There must be, because I’m not the only one denuding its shelves of Legions Imperialis! Or Age of Darkness for that matter.
Hopefully Doc you shouldn't have much trouble getting a game. My place has had a lot of people come out of the woodwork when some posts were made on the store FB page. If you can get someone to run through something like a 1k or 1.5k game and a lot of the flow of the rules will make sense in context when you actually play.
Also get the Legion Builder app (or equivalent) with your list ready on your phone, as an absolute essential I would say.
|
|
|
|
|
2024/05/14 20:22:10
Subject: [LI] Thoughts on legions so far
|
|
Fixture of Dakka
|
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:On the pace of games, do you think that’ll improve as people gain greater playing experience?
Yes.
Things have sped up in the little group I play this with as we've played more.
It's still a bit slow as someone always seems to have to look something up (it's not our weekly game of choice), but it has sped up.
In general our games last 3 turns. By that point it's usually pretty obvious who'll win.
|
|
|
|
2024/05/14 21:50:23
Subject: [LI] Thoughts on legions so far
|
|
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
I might need to try out a funky hash of Epic: Armageddon GT scenario with LI one day and see if that'd solve some of the issues brought up here, in particular taking the pressure off the early game without swinging entirely on the last turn.
|
|
|
|
|
2024/05/16 13:45:11
Subject: Re:[LI] Thoughts on legions so far
|
|
Joined the Military for Authentic Experience
On an Express Elevator to Hell!!
|
These things are always subjective, but I would say Armageddon is just a better game mechanically. It also does a much better job of handling the abstraction of different weapon types and their efficacy against different targets - the anti-armour and anti-infantry specs are just such a clean way of doing that I can't understand why something similar wasn't used for Legions rather than the incredible special rules bloat.
CCS has made the point about learning the rules and specs but I would say it is almost impossible for this game, unless you live and breathe it or are some sort of savant. This gun is -1 but hang on I'm shooting infantry so no modifier. These dice you have to re-roll your armour saves, one moment the description (not the weapon listing) says I actually get 2 shots. All of these things need a rules check way above and beyond most other games, to the point where the meme from Always Sunny in Philadelphia and the crazed looking guy with the paper and bits of string on the wall writes itself. I would say Legions is more complex in this regard than even Infinity, a game famous for its complexity, but that game does at least use repeating elements and you only have 7-8 minis on the table.
To me it's such a shame, as the game returning felt like you had just read that Pink Floyd is reforming and going on tour. But then David Gilmour dies. Anyway I'm going to shut up now, as I think I'm sounding like a stuck record and don't want to ruin the enjoyment of the game who haven't experienced previous editions, and therefore aren't getting hung up on 'what could have been'.
|
|
|
|
|
2024/05/18 11:37:42
Subject: Re:[LI] Thoughts on legions so far
|
|
Regular Dakkanaut
|
Pacific wrote:These things are always subjective, but I would say Armageddon is just a better game mechanically. It also does a much better job of handling the abstraction of different weapon types and their efficacy against different targets - the anti-armour and anti-infantry specs are just such a clean way of doing that I can't understand why something similar wasn't used for Legions rather than the incredible special rules bloat.
Armageddon is more of a wargame than the typical miniature game and is probably why it failed becaus this isnt what the core audience of GW type games is interested in.
Which is better is down to someones personal taste is.
Pacific wrote:
CCS has made the point about learning the rules and specs but I would say it is almost impossible for this game, unless you live and breathe it or are some sort of savant. This gun is -1 but hang on I'm shooting infantry so no modifier. These dice you have to re-roll your armour saves, one moment the description (not the weapon listing) says I actually get 2 shots. All of these things need a rules check way above and beyond most other games, to the point where the meme from Always Sunny in Philadelphia and the crazed looking guy with the paper and bits of string on the wall writes itself. I would say Legions is more complex in this regard than even Infinity, a game famous for its complexity, but that game does at least use repeating elements and you only have 7-8 minis on the table.
Saying Legions is more complex or anything near that of anything in Infinity is hyperbolic. Its nowhere near it.
For just the weapons there is like around 160 different weapon profiles, they al have between 1-4 range brackets with modifiers, different dammage, different ammunition that either halv your armor, forces you to take saves on a nother stat or both and then you might have different extra effects on top of that.
And Infinity i played with 10-15 minis mostly different.
What infinity does really well in this regad is its exelnt army builder were everyting is fast and easyly available thanks to hyperlinks and the superb wiki.
Its easily the best army builder out there (that i know of) and its free
If Legion hade on that just lets you print out unit and wepaon profiles in the style of the reference in the back of the main book it would have been super heplfull to have.
Now you have to do it manually yourself as needed.
|
|
|
|
2024/06/14 11:33:41
Subject: [LI] Thoughts on legions so far
|
|
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
picked up "the great slaughter" last night, largely as youngest is getting into the game and the swine paints well and fast.
happy to use the Legion Builder for lists, prefer an actual book during actual games and have a game next week
not amazingly impressed I have to say, agree with points made previously that it feels like the unit stats were done by someone other than whoever did the first book
laughable how some units have cost upgrades for minor weapons but others get "yeah whatever you want"
also raised an eyebrow the land raider being one dice to hit with a "sponson mounted lascannon" (singular) when it clearly has two, obviously we have been through that and the description doesn't note it has two so its got one dice
seems weird the Land Raider being worse as a tank than say the Predator, can see it as a balance thing but just feels weird
also still think the lack of a Land Raider battle tank option (them limited to transports) sucks
|
|
|
|
2024/06/14 13:35:18
Subject: [LI] Thoughts on legions so far
|
|
Esteemed Veteran Space Marine
UK
|
leopard wrote:picked up "the great slaughter" last night, largely as youngest is getting into the game and the swine paints well and fast.
happy to use the Legion Builder for lists, prefer an actual book during actual games and have a game next week
not amazingly impressed I have to say, agree with points made previously that it feels like the unit stats were done by someone other than whoever did the first book
laughable how some units have cost upgrades for minor weapons but others get "yeah whatever you want"
also raised an eyebrow the land raider being one dice to hit with a "sponson mounted lascannon" (singular) when it clearly has two, obviously we have been through that and the description doesn't note it has two so its got one dice
seems weird the Land Raider being worse as a tank than say the Predator, can see it as a balance thing but just feels weird
also still think the lack of a Land Raider battle tank option (them limited to transports) sucks
I think that’s the case for all sponsons in the game apparently. The LR ones get accurate too though don’t they? So marginally better than the predator ones.
|
|
|
|
|
2024/06/14 19:26:18
Subject: [LI] Thoughts on legions so far
|
|
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
LR have accurate yes, but then the Predator has an accurate lascannon in the turret and normal on the sides - so two dice, one with a re-roll
v the LR with just one, with a re-roll
its not "wrong" it just feels weird that a vehicle that in 28mm is better is this much worse (though also costed in proportion to its abilities)
|
|
|
|
2024/06/14 19:53:01
Subject: [LI] Thoughts on legions so far
|
|
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon
|
Predator doesn’t have a transport capacity.
In LI, that matters. Not only are Infantry your best bet for taking and holding objectives, but the Landraiders provide said infantry with some reliable anti-armour firepower, whilst benefitting from the infantry’s own firepower.
|
|
|
|
|
2024/06/15 05:32:06
Subject: [LI] Thoughts on legions so far
|
|
Joined the Military for Authentic Experience
On an Express Elevator to Hell!!
|
Transport capacity matters much less in this game than previous Epic versions due to the high movement and triple movement rate of infantry. I can have no Rhinos and get my marines into buildings mid table on turn 1.
Meanwhile Rhino zerg squadrons are very effective - very few points to spam charge enemy vehicles, interfere with their firing and probably kill a few. Not exactly how you imagine things should work.. I have read some events are actually banning Rhinos from being issued with charge orders.
|
|
|
|
|
2024/06/15 21:06:14
Subject: [LI] Thoughts on legions so far
|
|
Ridin' on a Snotling Pump Wagon
|
Just being in a transport provides significant protection though, as your dudes are then immune to all Light Weapons, and highly resistant to Light AT.
Yes there’s a risk to the passengers if their Transport is shot out from under them, but we can’t have everything.
|
|
|
|
|
|