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So I am running a Noise Marine list right now at 1500. So far so good. I have 1 Lord in the List and 1 Sorc.

However I am not all that excited by the Sorc and am thinking of replacing him with another Lord character.

Here is the scenario:

Shooty Lord

Chaos Lord 1 - Warlord, Sigil of Corruption, Combi-Plasma, Mark of Slaanesh, Power Sword - 130
He would be in a unit of 5 Noise Marines with Blast Master, Sonic Blasters, Icon of Excess and Rhino.

Assualt Lord

Chaos Lord 2 - Steed, Burning Brand, Lightening Claw, Sigil, MoS
He would Outflank with a unit of 3-5 Spawn.

I would only run this at like 1850 or 2000, but the point here is that your Warlord stays safer in a shooty unit. With the second Lord rolling in on an assault.

Just curious if anyone has tried this?

Thulsa Doom wrote:
So I am running a Noise Marine list right now at 1500. So far so good. I have 1 Lord in the List and 1 Sorc.

However I am not all that excited by the Sorc and am thinking of replacing him with another Lord character.

Here is the scenario:

Shooty Lord

Chaos Lord 1 - Warlord, Sigil of Corruption, Combi-Plasma, Mark of Slaanesh, Power Sword - 130
He would be in a unit of 5 Noise Marines with Blast Master, Sonic Blasters, Icon of Excess and Rhino.

Assualt Lord

Chaos Lord 2 - Steed, Burning Brand, Lightening Claw, Sigil, MoS
He would Outflank with a unit of 3-5 Spawn.

I would only run this at like 1850 or 2000, but the point here is that your Warlord stays safer in a shooty unit. With the second Lord rolling in on an assault.

Just curious if anyone has tried this?

why would your shooty lord not have a burning brand?

why would any lord have a power sword. Lightning claws are much much better, especilly if you are taking a combi plas or burning brand

why would you run your lords(fearless) in fearless units. You are wasting the ability to make any unit he joins fearless.



what is this love of outflanking assault units? You outflanks, come in turn 2-3, cannot assault. You get shot up, or the enemy runs away from your unit. Turn 3-4 you possibly get to assault but high probabilty you just sit there and hope for linebreaker. Is that worth 350 points?

JUST BECAUSE YOU CAN OUTFLANK DOESNT MEAN YOU WANT TO OUTFLANK!

If you're running the steed lord, run him with some slaaneshi bikers, so they can mitigate the "run away" issue somewhat, and are slightly more resistant to shooting.

I'm curious what it is you don't like about the sorcerer.

Thulsa Doom wrote:
So I am running a Noise Marine list right now at 1500. So far so good. I have 1 Lord in the List and 1 Sorc.

However I am not all that excited by the Sorc and am thinking of replacing him with another Lord character.

Here is the scenario:

Shooty Lord

Chaos Lord 1 - Warlord, Sigil of Corruption, Combi-Plasma, Mark of Slaanesh, Power Sword - 130
He would be in a unit of 5 Noise Marines with Blast Master, Sonic Blasters, Icon of Excess and Rhino.

Assualt Lord

Chaos Lord 2 - Steed, Burning Brand, Lightening Claw, Sigil, MoS
He would Outflank with a unit of 3-5 Spawn.

I would only run this at like 1850 or 2000, but the point here is that your Warlord stays safer in a shooty unit. With the second Lord rolling in on an assault.

Just curious if anyone has tried this?

As far as I see it, the chaos lord has a few possible roles in an army. He can be your mandatory warlord, he can provide a unit with fearless and he can be a close combat monster.

Shooting is not something that they do well. For example, your "shooty" lord only has a combi plasma. So if you want shooting out of him, you're paying 130 points for 2 plasma shots at best. For that price you can get an auto cannon havoc squad and have points left over. The lord is further wasted because the noise marines are already fearless. So you're going to get very little return for your investment.

The lord on the steed seems to make more sense. If you give him a power fist then you gain the benefit of the extra attack for having two specialist weapons and can use either the claw to rip through weaker characters or the fist against vehicles and terminator armored foes. Losing the brand is no big deal. It's only S4 so you won't kill that many marines and if you do kill enough you might put yourself out of charge range. This guy could be a great counter assault unit to protect your noise marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 minigun762 wrote:
I'm curious what it is you don't like about the sorcerer.

My problem with the sorcerer is that he's not fearless, has two wounds and by the time you kit him out to be useful he costs almost as much as a heldrake. How have you used yours in a useful manner?

I've had success with a cheap telepathy Sorcerer. Keep him at mastery 2, Undivided with sigil and he is barely over 100 points.

 minigun762 wrote:
I've had success with a cheap telepathy Sorcerer. Keep him at mastery 2, Undivided with sigil and he is barely over 100 points.

So assault support then?

My idea was to roll on biomancy hoping for endurance so that I could have a noise marine squad advance and still fire their sonic blasters and blastmasters, plus have feel no pain.

Shooty : Lord on a bike with burning brand / SoC. It is a real pain that has to be dealt with. Moves a ton, fires at semi long range, cannot be caught in assault by most units. Can hide in or behind units.

I had a lot of success with a burning brand Nurgle biker, alone, running around burning things. A more or less 150 points unit that attract a lot of attention.

To your choice, you can make him a sorcerer that can shoot and cast a benediction / curse per turn (require specific power rolls!).

Assault : you want mobility, I think?
Steed (or a bike if you're cheap!) is mandatory. SoC also.
As for weapons : Black mace is crap ap AP 2. I'd use the dreaded PF / LC combo.
Another (much more expansive) option : MoS DP with wings, PA, Black mace. In the spawn unit.
Paf.

bogalubov wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:
I've had success with a cheap telepathy Sorcerer. Keep him at mastery 2, Undivided with sigil and he is barely over 100 points.

So assault support then?

My idea was to roll on biomancy hoping for endurance so that I could have a noise marine squad advance and still fire their sonic blasters and blastmasters, plus have feel no pain.

Yeah he is support. I haven't tried biomancy much but you'll need to consider if it just wouldn't be easier to run a lord instead.

I have been running a mastery 3 nurgle sorcerer with spell familiar along with typhus in a huge zombie unit. ( 3rd power rolled on telepathy)

I really like the nurgle powers, and having 4 total rolls on them between the 2 HQ's has been successful.

Making any units weapons gain "gets hot" has actually helped me kill some flyers, and gift of contagion from a possible 2 sources can really neuter an assault unit.

I made mistakes of kitting out the sorcerers too much at first, but with typhus in the unit as well as the 2+ LoS, you can keep them cheap.

 BarBoBot wrote:
I have been running a mastery 3 nurgle sorcerer with spell familiar along with typhus in a huge zombie unit. ( 3rd power rolled on telepathy)

I really like the nurgle powers, and having 4 total rolls on them between the 2 HQ's has been successful.

Making any units weapons gain "gets hot" has actually helped me kill some flyers, and gift of contagion from a possible 2 sources can really neuter an assault unit.

I made mistakes of kitting out the sorcerers too much at first, but with typhus in the unit as well as the 2+ LoS, you can keep them cheap.

I do like terminator armor on sorcs. Gives them a 2+, a 5++ and lets them change their staff to a force axe.

bogalubov wrote:

 minigun762 wrote:
I've had success with a cheap telepathy Sorcerer. Keep him at mastery 2, Undivided with sigil and he is barely over 100 points.

So assault support then?

My idea was to roll on biomancy hoping for endurance so that I could have a noise marine squad advance and still fire their sonic blasters and blastmasters, plus have feel no pain.

Invisibility > Endurance for CSM most of the time IMO.

Invisibility is godly. I'm contemplating adding Mephy to my IG army to improve my odds of being able to make a power blob invisible. Just have to plug in a Sanguinary Priest to give the unit ATSKNF and go to town. Stash 5 Scouts in the back to deck chair and Bob's Your Uncle.

Chaos Sorcerers can be Mastery Level 3 at 110 points. That's three chances at invisibility, or three rolls on the telepathy table.

Just one way to run him:

Level 3
No Mark -- All on Telepathy
Sigil
Spell Familiar
150

Now remember that marine players pay 150 points for their level 2 psykers (except for DA), and that's without any other upgrades. The sigil depends on where you're putting the Sorcerer -- if you give him Terminator Armor instead, you may not want to spend the points for the extra invuln. If he ever gets into CC, you'll probably be wishing he had that 4++ if you don't take it though. Yeah, you don't get divination, but most of the telepathy powers are at least situationally good, and Psychic Shriek isn't bad either.

Spell familiar -- I know it's not as awesome as a Ghosthelm or Runes of Witnessing, but if we're going Lvl3 on the sorcerer, you'll want it to make sure you don't perils to death, and you'll get your powers off basically all the time. It also gives you some insurance against eldar and nid psychic defenses, allowing you to function quite well even through their runes and shadows.

If you want a more fighty Sorcerer, try

Lvl 3 -- Biomancy
Terminator Armor (axe)
Spell Familiar
150

You're not at tough as TMC, but with biomancy and TDA, you're still reasonable.

As to Chaos Lords, there are so many ways to equip them, and many of them are actually viable. I run a NM list too, and it's got a Slaanesh lord with Brand, Sword (don't want to rip his arm off for a claw), sigil. It also has a power armored Khorne lord with the Axe, in a LR with Khorne Terminators.


The biggest thing about CSM HQs, and really most HQs, is that you need to ask the question: "What am I going to be doing with this HQ?" Is he a buffer, a debuffer, a combat dude, a schlub that you're taking to fill the mandatory HQ slot? This question is made harder by the fact that your choice of HQ both determines and is determined by whatever else is in your list. Even though I just threw out those sorcerer builds up there, you probably can't just slot him in to any list. You need to think about what he's buffing and debuffing, where you're putting him to keep him safe, what units he'll be dealing with. Chaos doesn't get universally useful HQs like Divination Librarians, or Big Meks with KFF, or Rune Priests; furthermore, your HQ choice does so much in determining what, if anything, you unlock as troops, and thus the makeup of your army in general. Match your HQ to your force, and your force to the HQ.

Mastery Level 3 is the way to go on a sorcerer. Thariinye pretty much sums all my other thoughts up. Your HQ needs to fill the roll and fit into your list. If you're blowing a lot of points on a CC HQ and he sits with Noise Marines who shouldn't be moving you wasted those points.

Thulsa Doom wrote:
So I am running a Noise Marine list right now at 1500. So far so good. I have 1 Lord in the List and 1 Sorc.

However I am not all that excited by the Sorc and am thinking of replacing him with another Lord character.

Here is the scenario:

Shooty Lord

Chaos Lord 1 - Warlord, Sigil of Corruption, Combi-Plasma, Mark of Slaanesh, Power Sword - 130
He would be in a unit of 5 Noise Marines with Blast Master, Sonic Blasters, Icon of Excess and Rhino.

Assualt Lord

Chaos Lord 2 - Steed, Burning Brand, Lightening Claw, Sigil, MoS
He would Outflank with a unit of 3-5 Spawn.

I would only run this at like 1850 or 2000, but the point here is that your Warlord stays safer in a shooty unit. With the second Lord rolling in on an assault.

Just curious if anyone has tried this?

Yup. Love doing it. As an alternative consider the Bikes too. Here's an article on Slaanesh you might find fun:
http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2013/02/6th-edition-chaos-space-marine-cults_18.html

 Exergy wrote:
what is this love of outflanking assault units? You outflanks, come in turn 2-3, cannot assault. You get shot up, or the enemy runs away from your unit. Turn 3-4 you possibly get to assault but high probabilty you just sit there and hope for linebreaker. Is that worth 350 points?

JUST BECAUSE YOU CAN OUTFLANK DOESNT MEAN YOU WANT TO OUTFLANK!

You're spending so many points on outflanking when you buy the steed, so I can imagine its easy to feel obligated or forced to outflank to make full use of it.

That said, I came to the same conclusion as you did. I think I'd rather take the steed for the extra attack and extra movement and just run him with spawns. Same basic idea as a juggerlord. Not quite as good since you lose out on the T5 and extra wound but it is cheaper.

 Exergy wrote:

 BarBoBot wrote:
I have been running a mastery 3 nurgle sorcerer with spell familiar along with typhus in a huge zombie unit. ( 3rd power rolled on telepathy)

I really like the nurgle powers, and having 4 total rolls on them between the 2 HQ's has been successful.

Making any units weapons gain "gets hot" has actually helped me kill some flyers, and gift of contagion from a possible 2 sources can really neuter an assault unit.

I made mistakes of kitting out the sorcerers too much at first, but with typhus in the unit as well as the 2+ LoS, you can keep them cheap.

I do like terminator armor on sorcs. Gives them a 2+, a 5++ and lets them change their staff to a force axe.

Sorcerers come stock with a force weapon. If you want an axe you don't need terminator armor.

 BarBoBot wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 BarBoBot wrote:
I have been running a mastery 3 nurgle sorcerer with spell familiar along with typhus in a huge zombie unit. ( 3rd power rolled on telepathy)

I really like the nurgle powers, and having 4 total rolls on them between the 2 HQ's has been successful.

Making any units weapons gain "gets hot" has actually helped me kill some flyers, and gift of contagion from a possible 2 sources can really neuter an assault unit.

I made mistakes of kitting out the sorcerers too much at first, but with typhus in the unit as well as the 2+ LoS, you can keep them cheap.

I do like terminator armor on sorcs. Gives them a 2+, a 5++ and lets them change their staff to a force axe.

Sorcerers come stock with a force weapon. If you want an axe you don't need terminator armor.

i know they come stock, but giving them a force axe with their 3+ save and 2 wounds means they might not get to strike in a challenge. With a 2+/5++ I feel more confident chaning the force staff into a force axe.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 minigun762 wrote:

 Exergy wrote:
what is this love of outflanking assault units? You outflanks, come in turn 2-3, cannot assault. You get shot up, or the enemy runs away from your unit. Turn 3-4 you possibly get to assault but high probabilty you just sit there and hope for linebreaker. Is that worth 350 points?

JUST BECAUSE YOU CAN OUTFLANK DOESNT MEAN YOU WANT TO OUTFLANK!

You're spending so many points on outflanking when you buy the steed, so I can imagine its easy to feel obligated or forced to outflank to make full use of it.

That said, I came to the same conclusion as you did. I think I'd rather take the steed for the extra attack and extra movement and just run him with spawns. Same basic idea as a juggerlord. Not quite as good since you lose out on the T5 and extra wound but it is cheaper.

I run my MoS lord on a bike, but a steed is nice if you want to model it. What you want to do is run them with bikes. Bikes can use fearless, CSM bikes are good in assault. CSM bikes dont need MoN to avoid ID problems. Bikes can take 2 plasma and a combi plasma and actually outflank and scare something. 12" move and 12" rapid fire(24") 6 plasma shots and 0-14bolter + burning brand is scary. That might be worth outflanking with to ensure the alpha strike. If the enemy runs to the center, you still have 36" range if you dont rapid fire so you can do something.

Well, CSM ICs should be good at killing things, especially in challenges. I mention this a lot in other threads and on my website.
This is the list of traits you want your lord to have.
- AP 2 weapon
- 2+ Armor save
- 4++ or better save (or 5++/FNP which is 55% save)
- EW
- T5 or greater
- 4 wounds
- Lots of attacks (at least 5)
- Ability to cause ID through by doubling out people (power fist)
The more of these traits one possesses, the better they will do.

How does this effect CSM?
* A 2+ save is required. Having a 2+ save means ICs like Mephiston, Vect, or Draigo will bounce off you. Since this is only available though terminator armor or warpsmiths, your going to want to take terminator armor.
* An AP2 weapon is a huge advantage. Just like bringing a 2+ armor save to the fight is huge, so is bringing a weapon that can pierce 2+ armor. That LC wont do anything to Vulcan, but power axe will double your total amount of wounds to him. If your going Khorne, the Axe of Blind Fury is a great way to complete this. It also brings a ton of attacks.
* Getting a T5 is a nice bonus. This can be done through a juggernaut or MoN. Both are very valid choices, and will help to limit the ways you can face ID.
* Being able to insta-gib heros is very important. A power fist completes this goal nicely. (You could also do a chainfist to give you options to rip up vehicles)

What Lords do I bring?
Quite often I will take Abbadon. Hes an amazing beatstick. He matches all the required criteria to be a beatstick. Seriously, he will go 'fruit ninja' on nearly everything that gets close. His only problem is you need to either run non-cult CSM or fit in another lord to unlock troops.

Aside from Abbadon, this is my standard lord. He's about 147-163, depending if you gave him a chain fist and BoM. .
- Terminator Armor
- MoN
- Lighting Claw
- Power/Chain Fist
- Boon of Mutation
He will beat the snot out of most enemy ICs. Heavy hitters like Swarmlord will gib him. ICs with STR 10 weapons like ork warbosses/Thunderwolf Lords will cause him problems.
Remember, having 2 specialist weapons means he gets 4 attacks base, 5 on the charge.

Lab, what's your thinking on the black mace for none princes?

No AP2 but easy wounds, many attacks and a chance for instant death.

The mace is a specialized weapon. Your trading out your ability to penetrate armor for the ability to cause ID.
This is great when your going into large groups of MEQ. Toss your nurgle lord into a 50 man guard blob squad and watch them rush to die like mosquetos to a bug zapper.

When going after ICs, its a bit less effective. Look at what it will do to Azrael. You will be doing ~.62 wounds per turn to him. This is because 5/6 of your hits will bounce off his armor, and your hitting half the time. Even if you roll well and get 5 extra attacks, that's just not enough to cut it.
One failed roll does mean a 1/3 chance of the MEQ HQ popping, but its not really something you can guarantee.

That's why I think of the black mace as a specialized. It mows through squads of MEQ/IG like they are butter. It gives some excellent tools to handle problems like beast packs. What it does not do is crack open heavy hitter ICs. Therefore if you bring it, make sure you have someone like old' man Abbadon to shout "Get off my lawn!!" at anyone who gets to close.

 labmouse42 wrote:

That's why I think of the black mace as a specialized. It mows through squads of MEQ/IG like they are butter. It gives some excellent tools to handle problems like beast packs. What it does not do is crack open heavy hitter ICs. Therefore if you bring it, make sure you have someone like old' man Abbadon to shout "Get off my lawn!!" at anyone who gets to close.

I agree that it helps thin the ranks of infantry well, but I'm curious how it stacks up when fighting other ICs. For comparison, I'm going to test it against the claw & fist combination as it is almost the same point total and is a popular alternative to demon weapons.

For testing, I'll use a "medium" target with T4 3+/4++ (basic Captain or Chaplain) and a "hard" target with T4 2+/3++ (TH/SS Terminator).
The attacker in all cases will be a basic Chaos Lord.
For simplicity, I'll assume you roll average (4) on the demon weapon and not add in any kind of charge bonus.

Claw vs medium
4 attacks = 2 hits = 1.5 wounds = 0.75 unsaved wounds
Fist vs medium
4 attacks = 2 hits = 1.67 wounds = 0.84 unsaved wounds (chance for instant death but striking @ I1)
Mace vs medium
9 attacks = 4.5 hits = 3.75 wounds = 1.24 unsaved wounds (chance for instant death)

Claw vs hard
4 attacks = 2 hits = 1.5 wounds = 0.25 unsaved wounds (unrealistic scenario, you would have used the fist)
Fist vs hard
4 attacks = 2 hits = 1.67 wounds = 0.56 unsaved wounds (chance for instant death but striking @ I1)
Mace vs hard
9 attacks = 4.5 hits = 3.75 wounds = 0.63 unsaved wounds (chance for instant death)

In this scenario, it looks like the mace wins out.

Is Lucius any good? I quite like the idea of running him to unlock noise marines rather than a lord. His stats look good on paper, but I've never been that good at evaluating these things!

 Shredder wrote:
Is Lucius any good? I quite like the idea of running him to unlock noise marines rather than a lord. His stats look good on paper, but I've never been that good at evaluating these things!

Lucius has some interesting stats and weapons; he is a decent MEQ and TEQ IC fighter and does own a S5, AP 3 template weapon to go along with a noise marine list but against a proper CC monster, he has no shot.

Lucius is a beast. Very good character fos Slaanesh.

Sorcerors are excellent ive had one in every game of 6th ive played so far and he has never let me down last game i got endurance invisibillty and psychic shriek the sorceror kept my noise marines shooting my cultists invisible and he destroyed a unit of 7 nurgle bikers single handedly with psychic shriek he's a wonderful investment and worth his points.
If your wanting someone different try blackheart infiltrating noise marines or a giant unit of assaulty CSM with a badass lord is hilairiois

Lord on Juggernaught w/ Axe of Blinding fury, sigil, votlw is what we call the machine, put him in a unit of spawn, and see him eat everything he touches...

Or Lord of Nurgle on bike, w/ Pwfist, Brand, sigil, votlw in spawns of nurgle, this really does ugly things...

Chaos is jumpin' A lot of fun stuff to play now.