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Sorry if this has been posted before, my search-fu is weak.

Networked markerlights in a squad of Tau. Can the markerlights be fired before the rest of the weapons roll to hit so that the markerlights can be used on the rest of the squads' hits? Otherwise why have the rule that differentiates them from regular markerlights that the firing squad can use the light tokens generated from networked lights.

Same thing with Black Knights for DA. Can the grenade launcher rad grenades be fired before the plasma talons to lower toughness for the incoming plasma hits, thereby increasing the likelyhood of being double toughness and inflicting ID?

If the book allows firing different weapons in the same squad at different times can someone give me a page number?

Thanks

No, the unit fires all weapons at the same time.

The Rad 'nade effects are on a unit hit by, not wounded by, so you hit with everything at the same time and wound with everything after, as the unit has already been hit with the rad grenade they are now -1 toughness.

The network marker light specifies it may be used by the firing unit though does it not?

 Massaen wrote:
The network marker light specifies it may be used by the firing unit though does it not?

Yes it does, but if you resolve them at the same time as your weapon hits you do not have the marker tokens to spend before to hit rolls are made as the markerlight section in the codex states. The codex says you must declare you are using markerlight tokens before hit rolls are made...so how do you use them on the same squad that generates them as networked lights say you are allowed to do?

MarkyMark wrote:
No, the unit fires all weapons at the same time.

The Rad 'nade effects are on a unit hit by, not wounded by, so you hit with everything at the same time and wound with everything after, as the unit has already been hit with the rad grenade they are now -1 toughness.

Except in the case of Tau Networked Markerlights. They fire immediately before the other weapons in a squad so that ML tokens are generated on the squad, and may then be used by the squad containing the networked ML.

Tau Codex, page 29, "Networked Markerlight" heading, lines 6&7.

--edited with page Codex page info.

Did they change that at all with errata?

NO, the NML has always been a first-fire weapon. It is also the only one I can think of off hand.

In the case of NORMAL markerlights (I.E. those carried by pathfinders, and firewarrior sergeants) you cannot do this. The firing squad cannot benefit from the ML hit.

in the case of NETWORKED markerlights, yes you can do this. First you fire the ML, then the rest of the squad can use that ML token to better their shooting.

This is why marker drones are SO DAMN EXPENSIVE, because they carry the NETWORKED version.

Cheesedoodler wrote:
In the case of NORMAL markerlights (I.E. those carried by pathfinders, and firewarrior sergeants) you cannot do this. The firing squad cannot benefit from the ML hit.

in the case of NETWORKED markerlights, yes you can do this. First you fire the ML, then the rest of the squad can use that ML token to better their shooting.

This is why marker drones are SO DAMN EXPENSIVE, because they carry the NETWORKED version.

Still too expensive.

page 13 upper left corner second bold sentence "...all of the models in the unit fire at the same time..." I don't know if marker lights can be used for your unit's rolls. One would think that if all weapons are fired at the same time that no, you couldn't, however logic and GW often aren't used in the same sentence.

Nonowho, why are you jumping in late with incomplete information? As already discussed in the thread, regular Markerlights cannot be applied to benefit the other models firing in the same unit, as you say. But Networked Markerlights are a special exception.

In general never but in this one very specific example there is a specific permission to override the general rules.

tidalwake wrote:
Yes it does, but if you resolve them at the same time as your weapon hits you do not have the marker tokens to spend before to hit rolls are made as the markerlight section in the codex states. The codex says you must declare you are using markerlight tokens before hit rolls are made...so how do you use them on the same squad that generates them as networked lights say you are allowed to do?

Because pretty much everything related to markerlights (especially seeker missiles) is broken RAW. You can't apply the rules strictly, you have to play some kind of RAI and allow markerlights to break the rules, otherwise you can't use them at all.

 Peregrine wrote:

tidalwake wrote:
Yes it does, but if you resolve them at the same time as your weapon hits you do not have the marker tokens to spend before to hit rolls are made as the markerlight section in the codex states. The codex says you must declare you are using markerlight tokens before hit rolls are made...so how do you use them on the same squad that generates them as networked lights say you are allowed to do?

Because pretty much everything related to markerlights (especially seeker missiles) is broken RAW. You can't apply the rules strictly, you have to play some kind of RAI and allow markerlights to break the rules, otherwise you can't use them at all.

I'm curious why you say so. I don't own a Tau Codex but the snippets I've glanced at during games don't seem to have any issues...

 Peregrine wrote:

tidalwake wrote:
Yes it does, but if you resolve them at the same time as your weapon hits you do not have the marker tokens to spend before to hit rolls are made as the markerlight section in the codex states. The codex says you must declare you are using markerlight tokens before hit rolls are made...so how do you use them on the same squad that generates them as networked lights say you are allowed to do?

Because pretty much everything related to markerlights (especially seeker missiles) is broken RAW. You can't apply the rules strictly, you have to play some kind of RAI and allow markerlights to break the rules, otherwise you can't use them at all.

You're right and Tau are so broken we cannot play their RAW and must go with RAI.... oh no wait this is the ONE thing an army with no CC potential can do. Tau shoot, they've done that for 3 editions, they don't do combat they shoot. Quit crying that the shooty army is too shooty.

That's like saying Necrons are too powerful due to unforeseen interactions in their rules, or a black mace winged daemon prince is too broken or any good unit is too good.

 Peregrine wrote:

tidalwake wrote:
Yes it does, but if you resolve them at the same time as your weapon hits you do not have the marker tokens to spend before to hit rolls are made as the markerlight section in the codex states. The codex says you must declare you are using markerlight tokens before hit rolls are made...so how do you use them on the same squad that generates them as networked lights say you are allowed to do?

Because pretty much everything related to markerlights (especially seeker missiles) is broken RAW. You can't apply the rules strictly, you have to play some kind of RAI and allow markerlights to break the rules, otherwise you can't use them at all.

The rules for networked markerlight specify that it is fired before the remainder of the unit fires.

I can understand the hate towards seeker missiles (my laser guided missile cannot lock on, what?). I'm unsure as to how markerlights break the rules, can you elaborate please?

 liturgies of blood wrote:
You're right and Tau are so broken we cannot play their RAW and must go with RAI.... oh no wait this is the ONE thing an army with no CC potential can do. Tau shoot, they've done that for 3 editions, they don't do combat they shoot. Quit crying that the shooty army is too shooty.

That's like saying Necrons are too powerful due to unforeseen interactions in their rules, or a black mace winged daemon prince is too broken or any good unit is too good.

Maybe you should read more carefully before you make an embarrassing "poor me!!!!!!!!" rant? I said that markerlights are broken, not overpowered. As in the rules do not function properly. You have to go with RAI instead of RAW to make Tau function at all, not to make them weaker because we hate Tau. And I don't know about you, but as a Tau player I'd much rather play RAI and have the ability to use seeker missiles than play RAW and not.

 Happyjew wrote:
The rules for networked markerlight specify that it is fired before the remainder of the unit fires.

But the main rules don't like this. For example, if the networked markerlights shoot first are they required to fire at the same target? After all, they're firing separately from the rest of the unit, so why should they be bound by its choices?

I'm unsure as to how markerlights break the rules, can you elaborate please?

Networked markerlights and their special "shoot first" rule, and everything to do with seeker missiles. Using Pathfinders to boost BS might be pretty straightforward, but try using seeker missiles RAW and you'll discover new levels of hatred for GW's poor rule quality. And then for bonus fun try to use a markerlight to reduce the cover save for a Sky Ray using its own markerlights to fire a seeker missile.

 Peregrine wrote:

I'm unsure as to how markerlights break the rules, can you elaborate please?

Networked markerlights and their special "shoot first" rule, and everything to do with seeker missiles. Using Pathfinders to boost BS might be pretty straightforward, but try using seeker missiles RAW and you'll discover new levels of hatred for GW's poor rule quality. And then for bonus fun try to use a markerlight to reduce the cover save for a Sky Ray using its own markerlights to fire a seeker missile.

There are a lot of weapons/special rules that override the normal rules. For example, Hammerhand (GK psychic power) specifically says the +1 modifier applies before a x2 modifier. Bounding Leap (Hormagant special rule) says to roll 3 dice when running, taking the highest (same as the Move! Move! Move! order from IG). Dark Angels use Azrael's Leadership instead of the highest in the unit. The list goes on.

Regarding Seeker Missiles - if you are talking about not needing LoS there are other weapons that do not require LoS. If you are talking about only having a 1/36 chance of hitting a zooming flyer/swooping fmc...I agree that that is messed up.

 Peregrine wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
You're right and Tau are so broken we cannot play their RAW and must go with RAI.... oh no wait this is the ONE thing an army with no CC potential can do. Tau shoot, they've done that for 3 editions, they don't do combat they shoot. Quit crying that the shooty army is too shooty.

That's like saying Necrons are too powerful due to unforeseen interactions in their rules, or a black mace winged daemon prince is too broken or any good unit is too good.

Maybe you should read more carefully before you make an embarrassing "poor me!!!!!!!!" rant? I said that markerlights are broken, not overpowered. As in the rules do not function properly. You have to go with RAI instead of RAW to make Tau function at all, not to make them weaker because we hate Tau. And I don't know about you, but as a Tau player I'd much rather play RAI and have the ability to use seeker missiles than play RAW and not.

I did read it and you are forgetting specific beats general. This is a specific rule to override the general restriction. I play against tau all the time. It's not broken, it's one of their few tricks that they can bring to bear. They function perfectly fine within the rules and you're only playing RAI to avoid the fact the rules work.

LoB, you're misreading him. He's not complaining that they're good, he believe the rules are poorly written in the sense that they don't actually function if read literally, without filling in some gaps by using intent.

I am looking at the codex now and I cannot see any problems with how a unit can use a networked marker light and then gain the benefit of it.
I cannot see any issue with a unit using it and launching a missile.

Where is there a problem with the markerlight being used in the rules?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Pg 29 of codex tau empire is very clear if not easy to browse.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
I am looking at the codex now and I cannot see any problems with how a unit can use a networked marker light and then gain the benefit of it.
I cannot see any issue with a unit using it and launching a missile.

Where is there a problem with the markerlight being used in the rules?

Because apparently being given specific permission to override general rules with an advance rule breaks the game.

Indeed. Nothing about networked marker lights struggles with the rules

Pergrine - because they have specific permission to fire "before" the unit, but not specific permission to fire at a different target. Problem solved. So far you havent raised a single issue....

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Pergrine - because they have specific permission to fire "before" the unit, but not specific permission to fire at a different target. Problem solved. So far you havent raised a single issue....

If they fire before the unit they are not firing with the unit and form a separate set of shooting attacks. Therefore why should we assume that they are bound by the rest of the unit's choices? In fact, RAW all it says is they fire before the unit, not necessarily immediately before the unit. So RAW there's nothing wrong with shooting my marker drones, shooting everything else in the army, and then finally going back to finish the rest of the unit. For example, I can attach marker drones to a crisis suit squad, boost a broadside's shooting to kill a transport, and then shoot the crisis suits at the now-disembarked passengers.

Obviously RAI this is absurd, but RAW the rules are broken.

I cannot see any issue with a unit using it and launching a missile.

Ok, then tell me exactly who fires a seeker missile and when do they fire it?

For example, a fire warrior shas'ui with a markerlight scores a hit. This is the only markerlight in your army. Now, RAW a model with a markerlight must request the missile (whatever that means). The shas'ui (who does not have a networked markerlight) has already shot, so it's way too late to go back and declare a missile from his unit. The Devilfish that carries the missile does not have a markerlight and so can not request the missile. So who is actually shooting it?

Now, RAI you can pretty easily come up with an answer that functions. But RAW it is broken.

Youre missing the first part of shooting, which is picking a unit to shoot with. You pick the unit, not the models in it, as a whole (hence "unit")

So yes, they ARE bound by it, as you still must declare A target and then fire - which you are allowed to break into two substages

Your incomplete reading of the whole set of rules doesnt mean something is "broken", just that you havent actually read and applied all the relevant rules.

 Peregrine wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Pergrine - because they have specific permission to fire "before" the unit, but not specific permission to fire at a different target. Problem solved. So far you havent raised a single issue....

If they fire before the unit they are not firing with the unit and form a separate set of shooting attacks. Therefore why should we assume that they are bound by the rest of the unit's choices? In fact, RAW all it says is they fire before the unit, not necessarily immediately before the unit. So RAW there's nothing wrong with shooting my marker drones, shooting everything else in the army, and then finally going back to finish the rest of the unit. For example, I can attach marker drones to a crisis suit squad, boost a broadside's shooting to kill a transport, and then shoot the crisis suits at the now-disembarked passengers.

Obviously RAI this is absurd, but RAW the rules are broken.

Why is it absurd? What's "broken" about that? Aside from the fact that the crisis suits don't have any rule allowing them to split fire, so the drones firing at the transport means the suits must as well.
They're bound by the rest of the shooting rules because they don't have an exemption from them.

 Peregrine wrote:


Ok, then tell me exactly who fires a seeker missile and when do they fire it?

Tau Codex wrote:

...counters may be expended by subsequently firing Tau..
...To allow a vehicle to fire a single seeker missile at the marked unit....

Well, it would appear the vehicle fires it, subsequently (that means after).

Most problems with seeker missiles were induced by edition changes. Notably, they are:
1) Do seeker missiles fire at BS5 from a snapfiring vehicle,
2) Do seeker missiles hit flyers at full BS,
3) Seeker missile/cover problems.

All of those have been cleared up in the FAQ, some in slowed ways, but very clear none the less.

The "request a seeker missile" bit in the seeker missile section specifically says "as detailed in the markerlight rules", so, apparently, THAT is "whatever that means."

As for the transport scenario, yes, you can mark the Chimera, then waist a railgun on it. However, it has been long established that if you blow up a vehicle, the rest of the squad cannot fire at the occupants, because they are a different unit. In the scenario you put forth, nothing is granting you permission to fire at the occupants, so you have just wasted a turn of shooting for your XV-8s.

Now, with a sniper drone team, who all have individual target locks, you could have the spotter light up the transport, a Remora fires a seeker missile at it, and then the sniper drones shoot the guys who come out.

This is a good idea, I'm going to have to remember it.

maceria wrote:

Now, with a sniper drone team, who all have individual target locks, you could have the spotter light up the transport, a Remora fires a seeker missile at it, and then the sniper drones shoot the guys who come out.

This is a good idea, I'm going to have to remember it.

I would disagree with this interpretation. Nowhere in the unit or equipment rules does it allow you to break order of fire up so as to allow the Remora to interrupt the firing of the Sniper Drone team. Once you light up the transport with the Sniper Controller's NML the rest of the unit must complete their firing before you move onto another unit firing. As the ML rules clearly state that the unit housing the SM fires it at a later time I would say you have to complete shooting action 1 (sniper drone team) before moving onto shooting action 2 (remora)

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Youre missing the first part of shooting, which is picking a unit to shoot with. You pick the unit, not the models in it, as a whole (hence "unit")

But I shoot first with the networked markerlights. That means I resolve the markerlights entirely before I go to the first part of shooting for the rest of the unit.

maceria wrote:
Well, it would appear the vehicle fires it, subsequently (that means after).

Now read the rules for seeker missiles. It specifically says that a model with a markerlight must "request" the shot. If you interpret "request" to mean "shoot" then unless we're talking about a Sky Ray or Remora the vehicle can not be the unit doing the shooting.

As for the transport scenario, yes, you can mark the Chimera, then waist a railgun on it. However, it has been long established that if you blow up a vehicle, the rest of the squad cannot fire at the occupants, because they are a different unit. In the scenario you put forth, nothing is granting you permission to fire at the occupants, so you have just wasted a turn of shooting for your XV-8s.

Wrong. I shoot first with the networked markerlights, which means I resolve all of their shooting before I do any shooting with the rest of the unit (including picking targets for it).

Now, with a sniper drone team, who all have individual target locks, you could have the spotter light up the transport, a Remora fires a seeker missile at it, and then the sniper drones shoot the guys who come out.

RAW yes. However, RAI no. I'm not pointing this out as a viable strategy, I'm using it as an example of how the markerlight rules are broken and require some degree of RAI/house rules to make them function properly.

 Peregrine wrote:

As for the transport scenario, yes, you can mark the Chimera, then waist a railgun on it. However, it has been long established that if you blow up a vehicle, the rest of the squad cannot fire at the occupants, because they are a different unit. In the scenario you put forth, nothing is granting you permission to fire at the occupants, so you have just wasted a turn of shooting for your XV-8s.

Wrong. I shoot first with the networked markerlights, which means I resolve all of their shooting before I do any shooting with the rest of the unit (including picking targets for it).

The model with the networked marker light is part of a unit.
A model in the unit fires at target A.
Find permission to not fire at target A for the rest of the unit.

Relevant comparison - Jaws of the World Wolf. As a PSA it is declared and resolved entirely separate from normal shooting. Since it targets the first unit it hits, the rest of the unit must fire at that same unit.