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What I understand is that:-

1. One Relic may be taken per army
2. "A model may replace one weapon with the following......"

So almost anyone can take a Relic?

Therefore, can my Sergeant take the "Monster Slayer of Caliban" Relic?

If Belial is in play, he carries with him the Sword of Silence + a regular Storm Bolter. Can I swap his Storm Bolter for the "Foe Smiter" (S 4 AP 4 Assault 3, Master Crafted)?

Can I do this?

No , only models who have the option to take them in their unit entry(Librarian,Tech marines etc),

No. If you read the army list section, different unit entries will tell you if the have the option to take a Chapter Relic. For example, the regular Chaplain does not, but the Interrogator Chaplain does.

Most special characters hav a specific list of equipment which they can never change. Belial actually has two option to swap his weapons, but can't take Chapter Relics other than the one he comes with.

Crap... that was pretty obvious.

Thanks for the info and sorry for the bother. I was getting excited over the prospect of Belial carrying 2 Master-Crafted Weapons of Mass Destruction!

I assume you are referring to page 91 of the new DA codex.

1) Actually you can have as many relics as you con buy in your army, so long as the same relic is not used more then once.

2) No, any weapon can be replaced for one of the relics in the list, but the model needs access to chapter relics first.

A Sargent does only has access to the melee and ranged wargear,

Beliel has access to none of the relics on this page.

You could could replace a company master's storm bolter with The Monster Slayer and his power sword with The Mace of Redemption. Neither are specialist weapons so you get the extra attack but you can only use one profile per turn.

Ahh... the Relics are unique... so we can get one of each, but NOT 2 or 3 of the same Relic.

Noted on the Sergeant.

Noted on Belial :-(

For the sake of discussion, my Company Master is Balthasar from Dark Vengeance. In accordance with WYSIWYG, I can get him: (a) Lion's Roar (a combi-plasma) as well as the Monster Slayer of Caliban (a power sword)

True?

That's right, but for the price that he'll cost (don't forget the artificer armor that he'll need), you're better off playing him as Azrael ...
you gain 1W, 1A, a better CC weapon, a bolt pistol for +1A and all the army wide buffs of Azrael for about .... 35 points if I'm correct ?

TanKoL wrote:
That's right, but for the price that he'll cost (don't forget the artificer armor that he'll need), you're better off playing him as Azrael ...
you gain 1W, 1A, a better CC weapon, a bolt pistol for +1A and all the army wide buffs of Azrael for about .... 35 points if I'm correct ?

I'm looking at it right now since you mentioned it.....

Azrael
No pistol
Fragg & Krakk
Artificer armour + Feel No Pain (6+)("the Protector")
Combi-Plasma ("Lion's Wrath")
4+ Invul Save ("Lion's Helm")
Master Crafted Power Sword +2 Strength ("Sword of Secrets")

+1 W +1 A

Rites of Battle Special Rule

TOTAL 215 PTS

Generic Company Master Base 90 pts
Artificer upgrade +20 pts
Boltgun to Combi-Plasma (Relic) +20 pts
Chainsword to Power Sword +15 pts (Or the Monster Slayer for 45 pts)

TOTAL 145 PTS/165 PT (depending on which Relic, the Lion's Roar or the Monster Slayer)


After looking at this the difference the difference between the costs of the 2 is about 50-70 PTS (depending). By the looks of it, Azrael is only marginally more advantageous compared to the Generic Company Master.

Belial on the other hand.....

Well, Azrael has the sword AND the combi plasma, both being master crafted
He does have a bolt pistol (FAQs are your friends )
His 4++ is granted to his whole unit, as well as fearless and Preferred Enemy CSM

Belial is much less interesting

Pros :
His sword is slightly better than Azrael's (the 2+ being a bit more useful than the potential ID vs T3)
Precision shots on 5 or 6 (with a SB, woohoo !)
Pinpoint accuracy (that one is actually really good, but expensive to use with a 10-man unit)
Can Deep Strike

Cons :
His gun is way worse than Azrael's
He has minus 2A (1 on profile, one due to 2 weapons for Azrael)
he has minus 1W
Doesn't grant a 4++ to his whole unit
Has a crappy warlord trait
Doesn't make Ravenwing troops

I didn't include Belial's homer because it's only useful if he's on the table in a Land Raider driving all ahead full on T1 for a DWA on T2 with the rest of the Terminators, not really useful thus

Belial has obviously a better synergy in a Deathwing heavy army, but for a balanced one ? Azrael is way better (especially if you put him in a big Guard / Death Company blob)

Belial gets precision in CC as well. So if you use a Sargent to accept a challenge he has a good chance of moving his attacks to a powerfist/thunder hammer etc...

Crap.... you're right! I missed out 2 vital points here.....

The Lion's Helm grants a 4+ Invul Save to both Azrael + his UNIT... and the bolt pistol? Pg. 53 of the new Codex states that... but pg. 92 does not! WTF mate....

Thanks for all this feedback... I would still be in the dark if not for all the discussion!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Azrell wrote:
Belial gets precision in CC as well. So if you use a Sargent to accept a challenge he has a good chance of moving his attacks to a powerfist/thunder hammer etc...

Are you sure about this?

The Codex mentioned that 'Marked For Retribution' is only applicable for Belial's shooting attacks. It says nothing about close-combat.

He gets his normal precision shots for being a character.

Not to mention Azrael gets to pick his warlord trait, so free FNP for all units near an objective... is kind of good. Azrael kind of gives you the most bang for the buck of all the SCs, however he can get insta-deathed so... Sammael probably is more points efficient, at the end of the day, Since he's effective from turn 1 with his 36" reach out and touch you plasma cannon. Also better against 2+,


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've never like Belial, he always seems so underpowered compared to what you could have instead. Although when he was 130, he was a steal.

Being able to drop a terminator squad precisely where you want it to be is the most awesome ability ever. Deep striking units already affect your opponents deployment and battle plans. No scatter makes it even harder for them to control the battlespace.

This discussion needs to be moved to the Tactics.

@ Brother Elric: How do we do that?

I agree with the comment on Belial's under-poweredness. I've played a few games with Belial already and he was crappy in terms of SC killing.

Deep striking without scattering is awesome beyond words. The Deathwing Assault is a close second. In my games, I give up the initiative to go first just to mess with their early formations.

I'm working on Belial's Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield to get his weakness' sorted out. That should put a dent or 2 in a HQ or 3.

I have seen TH/SS Belial raped by Kharn, who also killed an interrogator chaplain the next turn. The guy playing him did make an amazing number of tinny dice rolls however.

However his roll for Abaddon using his daemon sword over on my side of the board against my Blood Angels was epic, he got a 1...... bye bye Abaddon....

I've been there.... 3 Deathwing wiped out by a single dread with a flamer, drop-podded next to my boys thanks to three '1's