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Hi I am considering adding Forge World to my Eldar army and was wondering if Hornets, Shadow Spectres or Warp Hunters are the most viable?

I like them all model wise but not sure what would add most to my army. I usually play a mix of foot and mech.

BTW, I have no plans to get a Wraithseer as I don't have the required Wraithguard unit and don't want one until they hopefully get done in plastic.

The floor is yours Eldar generals!

I think Hornets and Wasps are fantastic!

i would load the Hornets out with double Pulse Lasers. 4 Str 8 AP 2 shots at BS 4 for 125 pts? I like!

Wasps are 10 points more expensive than regular War Walkers, but are jump infantry. i usually load my Walkers out with Cannons, so the extra movement really helps them get into range while still keeping their cost low (150pts).

Personally, I am not a fan of the Warp Hunter. I know I may be in the minority here, but I dont dig the 36'' range. I much prefer the Night Spinner and the 72'' range. Now, I know plenty who have used the Warp Hunter, and loved it. You can definately test it out and try it. I am sure YMMV.

I personally feel the warp hunter is over powered! The range is not a big deal especially because your moving for that jink anyways. At 125 points I cant see a reason you wouldnt take one.

II use one as as allied choice when I use eldar with my DE. There quite good.

As far as the eldar book is a little lacking their forgeworld choices are top notch!

The reason you don't take them is because you only get 3 Heavy Support choices. Between them you have Wraithlords (arguably the nest unit in their codex - it has pretty allowed a nearly 6 year old codex remain playable by itself). As well as Fire Prisms and War Walkers.

Hornet are amazing models and look great, but they are very expensive in point cost so they are something I would stray from, perhaps playing Swooping Hawks instead.

Wasps however are a great option and since they are a troops choice, they are almost a must. 2 squads of 3 wasps can hold an objective pretty well if done right, and they can lay down a hail of fire

Nightwing is probably the best unit the eldar have period.

The warwalker and farseer is what allows the eldar to stay "relevant" not the wraithlord, Not even close (I wish I love the unit and have 3 wraithlords and only 1 warwalker).

Th wasp is actually alright but doesn't really do anything the codex doesn't already have.

Out of the options listed the wasp is okay but needs alot of support so the list has to be right for it.

Hornets are great but they need at least 2 for them to work.

Warp hunters are just awesome. If you have something to break transports (you are bringing S6 en mass right?) then they are a star unit that will devour anything on the field.

I have no experience with shadow spectres but the model looks awesome. They seem decent but not great on paper so it is a hard call.

If you have the money go with 2 wasps with pulse lasers. If you only can get one option then warp hunter. and if you are open to suggestion then nightwing; 2+ cover when jinkings, 2 shurcannons, 2 brightlance, vector dance, and flier, make the thing an absolute beast even if the opponent did manage to bring the necessary anti air to even hope to kill it.

Nobody likes the wraithwall list?
Avatar
Wraithseer - d-cannon
Baron
10 WG conceal
3 Wraithlords
2 Nightwings
fill in the cheaper troops ... at least 3 of the 5 MCs will get into cc - you cannot stop them and you will control the center of the table.

Warp Hunters are your army's best unit.

Use them.

Agreed. That's the point I was making.

Wraith lords are super mediocre unfortunately.

I would take 9 war walkers over 3 wl anyday!

Night wings and warp hunters are all you need.

 felixcat wrote:

Nobody likes the wraithwall list?
Avatar
Wraithseer - d-cannon
Baron
10 WG conceal
3 Wraithlords
2 Nightwings
fill in the cheaper troops ... at least 3 of the 5 MCs will get into cc - you cannot stop them and you will control the center of the table.

How are you getting 2 Nightwings?

EDIT: I guess you could do:
Avatar
Wraithseer - d-cannon
10 WG conceal
4 Wraithlords (sword+ Shuri Cannon)
5 Pathfinders
Baron
20 Warrirors (2 Cannon)
1 Talos (HW+Flail)
Void Raven
<points to spare for options>

 whembly wrote:

 felixcat wrote:

Nobody likes the wraithwall list?
Avatar
Wraithseer - d-cannon
Baron
10 WG conceal
3 Wraithlords
2 Nightwings
fill in the cheaper troops ... at least 3 of the 5 MCs will get into cc - you cannot stop them and you will control the center of the table.

How are you getting 2 Nightwings?

EDIT: I guess you could do:
Avatar
Wraithseer - d-cannon
10 WG conceal
4 Wraithlords (sword+ Shuri Cannon)
5 Pathfinders
Baron
20 Warrirors (2 Cannon)
1 Talos (HW+Flail)
Void Raven
<points to spare for options>

Why can't he take 2 Night Wings? looks legal to me once you add in every thing that is mandatory.

I think he is getting confuesd with nightwing and razorwing. The Nightwing is the Eldar flier from Forgeworld.

 zephoid wrote:
I think he is getting confuesd with nightwing and razorwing. The Nightwing is the Eldar flier from Forgeworld.

Oops... yeah, my bad.

I, on occasion, run 9 Hornets, just for S&Gs. I've since swapped that out for 3 Nightwings, though I may have to bring them back. Put 9 Hornets with 9 WWs, all with scatter lasers? Buckets of dice.

They're made of paper, or some other weak substance. (Like Raditz)

You really can't go wrong with Hornets and Warp Hunters. They're perfect and very Eldary.

Wraithseers are nice, but you have to take a lot of stuff you potentially don't want just to use them. (and must take a bunch of garbage).

Shadow Specters are just junk.

DarknessEternal is the comment about shadow spectres experience or paper judging? I would really like to hear someone with experience (as I know of no one who has used them, as yes they look bad on paper, I agree)

Wraithseers are nice, but you have to take a lot of stuff you potentially don't want just to use them. (and must take a bunch of garbage).

Because you dislike the Wraithwall. It is however a pita to get rid of and it controls center table very well. Nids play a 5 MC list ... we can too. It indeed might not be your cup of tea but it can be effective.

Well, when Nids play a ton of MCs they all either fly or make tiny monsters for free. I'm not sure that's an apt comparison.

I've never played v a Wraithseer list but I don't really like Wraith-star. I don't know how similar they are exactly, but Wraiths are slow and have such short range that they are easy to avoid and just crunch up the rest of the army.

And speaking of eldar FW, I find the corsair list pretty fun. Only list in the game that has jetpack troops

Might be interesting to take an ally detachment of them with a normal craftworld list


Although I do feel that it is a some weird mix of Craftworld and Dark Eldar. Craftworld weaponry on venoms is kind of weird

 felixcat wrote:

Because you dislike the Wraithwall. It is however a pita to get rid of and it controls center table very well

It's neither of those things. I haven't seen an army in years that wouldn't annihilate wraithguard at their leisure.

You have not been up against the new lists then. With conceal and stealth and FNP (Wraithseer and Baron) those T6 models will survive against most armies when marching forward supported by 3 WLs - Seer has a D-Cannon of course. The four MCs are T8. I'm not saying you cannot get rid of them - I'm saying you make it sound a lot easier than it is. In 5ed without allies and Wraithseer it was a heck of a lot easier. But yes you can kill them all and then have in some lists up to 6 MCs in your face ... Avatar, Wraithseer, 3 WLs and a Talos ... with counter charging Scorps all at 1750.

No it is not the most competitive list out there but it is not garbage either. We will agree to disagree. I've had a few quite interesting battles with them playing both my GK and my SW.

I am big proponent of the wraithwall but too often do people see it as troop WG with supporting WLs and WS to direct them. I love the combo and works great for certain situations, but toss 2 WG units in wave serpents flanking and have 2 WL and a WS walk up the middle beside a Farseer (equip what you desire) with a Warp Hunter covering you and the enemy simply does not know what to shoot first. In 2k point games, support it with 2 Dire boats and a Nightwing for good measure (optional: replace Dires for jetbikes and use the points left over to add something like a pair of hornets) . I personally like to throw star cannons on my stuff and give my lords a sword too.

My list I used tonight at 2.5k was

Farseer + Spirit Stones + RoWard + RoWit + Singing Spear + Fortune + Guide
Warlock Council x5 + Spears + Enhancee +Destructor x4

Wraithseer + D-Cannon

Wraithguard x5 + Warlock +Conceal
Wave Serpent + TL Starcannon + Shuriken Cannon

Wraithguard x5 + Warlock +Conceal
Wave Serpent + TL Starcannon + Shuriken Cannon

Jetbikes x6 + 2 Shuriken Cannons

Dire Avengers x10 + Exarch + DSC + Bladestorm
Wave Serpent + TL Starcannon + Shuriken Cannon

Hornet + 2 Pulse Lasers

Hornet + 2 Pulse Lasers

Nightwing

Wraithlord + Sword + Starcannon

Wraithlord + Sword + Starcannon

Warp Hunter + Shuriken Cannon

This list is designed so that no matter what scenario we are officially playing, it is initially treated as an annihilation mission and THEN worry about objectives. It doesn't look like much on the table but when your enemy sees what you have to work with, they will most likely focus down on one aspect of the front because it is durable enough to take a lot of punishment and still stalk forward menacingly.

The wraith bomb can work but for a normally fast army, you are trading in your strengths (range and speed) for durability. 18" threat range and max 10 shots from the WG ranks means you will be undergunned in many situations unless you have good support. Dropping off a handful next to a Land Raider or Leman Russ will usually pop it and unlike fire dragons who are wiped out in the next turn, WG prove durable enough to board again and make it to another target or hoof it there if need be especially if the WL, WS, WH core are drawing enough fire away.

PS Shadow Spectres are very good using their Ghostlight from afar to pop heavy stuff but become useless in almost any other situation.

Wow I didn't expect this thread to have so many replies already!

The responses seem to have confirmed what I was thinking anyway.

The Wraithseer is mainly good in a Wraithwall list which I have no intention of building even if they make Wraithguard in plastic. Maybe another Wraithlord someday and poss 10 Wraithguard in plastic but that would be it.

The Warp Hunter is awesome, I will have to save up and get me one of them.

Also 2-3 Hornets with pulse lasers. I was thinking star cannons but the pulse lasers have all their benefits with higher strength and longer range so is a bit of a no brainer really.

Knowing my luck though I will get the Hornets with pulse lasers then GW will release the next Eldar codex and make starcannons awesome again!

 ansacs wrote:
DarknessEternal is the comment about shadow spectres experience or paper judging? I would really like to hear someone with experience (as I know of no one who has used them, as yes they look bad on paper, I agree)

Only used them once, I bought them because the models are awesome.

If you want to use ghostlight for killing tanks from range, you are paying upwards of 250 points for 1 shot.
If you get in close, you die very easily to anything.
Any model lost is going to hurt it's ghostlight ability, quickly rendering it weak.

There really isn't much to playtest IMO, it just can't be good for it's points. If you have an awfull lot of line of sight blocking terrain, they could be ok, because then you could rely on them to stay alive. It's still 250 points though.

rohansoldier wrote:
Wow I didn't expect this thread to have so many replies already!

The responses seem to have confirmed what I was thinking anyway.

The Wraithseer is mainly good in a Wraithwall list which I have no intention of building even if they make Wraithguard in plastic. Maybe another Wraithlord someday and poss 10 Wraithguard in plastic but that would be it.

The Warp Hunter is awesome, I will have to save up and get me one of them.

Also 2-3 Hornets with pulse lasers. I was thinking star cannons but the pulse lasers have all their benefits with higher strength and longer range so is a bit of a no brainer really.

Knowing my luck though I will get the Hornets with pulse lasers then GW will release the next Eldar codex and make starcannons awesome again!

Be careful not to get caught up in the "no brainer" choices between weapons. The Pulse Laser is a good weapon, for sure, but it is super expensive in points. One of the biggest strengths of the Eldar warhost is their access to S6 weapons. they can spam them pretty effectively. If you are using hornets as FA options, they are already pretty pricey, and adding Pulse Lasers can more than double their cost.

If you instead give each hornet a pair of scatter lasers, much like you would equip a squad of war walkers.... you are actually more likely to kill vehicles with AV or 12 and under by virtue of the number of dice.

That is a good point Excelsis. I might have to do some playtesting to see what I want to get.

It will be a while before I have the money for the forgeworld bits anyway (I will want to get it all in one go to save postage) so I can think it over and proxy some models in the meantime.

I agree that the eldar can spam a lot of s6 shooting but there are times that you need something a bit heavier and the hornets are one of the few eldar vehicles (fire prism and wraithlord being the others) that can get bs4 so is a good candidate for the heavy hitter weapons like pulse lasers.

I know wraithlords aren't vehicles, but they are bs4 and can take bright lances/missile launchers at a reasonable cost.

I would like to see cheaper weapons plus the ability to take two of the same without twin linking in the next codex though.

En Excelsis wrote:

If you instead give each hornet a pair of scatter lasers, much like you would equip a squad of war walkers.... you are actually more likely to kill vehicles with AV or 12 and under by virtue of the number of dice.

This is factually incorrect.

Even if you had 2 Hornets with scatter lasers compared to 1 Hornet with pulse lasers, the pulse lasers are still better at killing AV 12.

That being said, I'm not clamoring for "always pulse lasers". It absolutely depends what the rest of your army consists of as to which weapons you want on your Hornet.

There is no exact science to it, since chance will always be a factor in a game that ultimately comes down to rolling dice.

It has been my experience that a higher volume of S6 shots is preferable to a lower volume of shots with a great S value. This was not formerly the case in older editions. S6 can glance AV12 and penetrate AV11 and 10. Because all vehicles now have HP (hull points) and the Vehicle Damage Table has been altered, even a very powerful weapon has about a 50% chance to destroy an enemy vehicle with only 1 shot. those are pretty poor odds IMO.

I've had better luck running a guided squad of 3 War Walkers with 6 scatter lasers between them. That's 24 shots (with rerolls) at S6. Out of my recent games that has been enough to kill an AV12, 3HP vehicle in a single shooting phase and often times with overkill.

As well, that same squad can then obliterate infantry of any caliber by raining fire on them.

Most weapons like Bright Lances and Pulse Lasers are much more costly in points, have markedly few shots, and are not able to perform other roles as well. They are ultimately less versatile.

Mind you, this does not apply if your enemy is playing any models that have higher than AV12. If they drop a Predator, LR, Leman Russ, or Monolith on the table, your scatter lasers are not much use against them, but they can still clean house against infantry. Bright Lances are your only real defense against AV13+.

It sounds to me though like you are just getting started, and can expect to play lower point value games. In these scenarios, you will get more mileage out of the dual Scatter Laser setup by quite a lot.

What DarknessEternal is saying is dead on correct. The decision whether to take the Pulse Lasers or not is not really about chance. Do the math real quick. 125 points for a Dual Pulse Hornet vs 130 for 2 Shuriken Cannon Hornets. The Shuriken Cannons score more successful results of glance or better on AV 10 & 11 through volume of fire. The Pulse Lasers are marginally better against AV12. But the difference isn't so big that it should be a no-brainer.

If your army packs 50-70 S6 shots without the Hornets and 0-5 S8, the Pulse Lasers are likely to give you something you need more. Then you can threaten AV 13. Or take shots of opportunity at powerful units without cover. It entirely depends on what your strength spread looks like and what offensive power you're lacking.

Jumping in here:

I run a Wraithseer, Warp Hunter and FULL shadow spectre squad at 1500 points:

The wraithseer runs with 2 wraithlords and just smashes anything and everything. Mounted a D-cannon on her shoulder and she rips almost anything to pieces. The 4+ FNP drives everyone insane.

The Warp Hunter - for 125 points this bad boy is so cheap for what it does it's criminal. Pie plate D-cannons are nasty... torrent flamer template D-cannons are pure evil. Nuff said. This boy usually kills 200-500 points worth of stuff by itself.

Shadow spectres - for 247 points I have a 6 man unit that can:
S10 AP2 blast a tank/termi squad and ID them. (Cynosure allows rerolls on the scatter at BS5 - at ful strength this is also 36" range)
5x S6 Ap3 2x S7 AP2 shot MEQ usually killing combat squads/devastators and seriously hurting others (18" range BS4/5)
5x S4 AP5 blasts on guard/nid hoards or green tides. + The exarchs 2x S7 AP2 (18" range)
The unit can JSJ 12" / shoot / 6" move in the assault phase (detailed in IA11 that it is a 6" move, not a D6)
And they have a 5++ save, increasing to 4++ from 12"+

My spectres (aside from looking amazing on the battlefield) combined with the warp hunter, Bel Annath and the Wraithseer saturate priority targets all over the battlefield. My spectres often get taken out fast but not before they wreck a unit or 2. The Wraithseer usually goes down but not until turn 4-5 and a fairly insane amount of shooting at it. And the warp hunter has only ever been destroyed because it had 1 HP left and the D-cannon was destroyed so I tank shocked with it for gaks n giggles.