Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So, I was looking over the new CD dex (SO EXCITED) and was looking over the HQ choices....

what a disappointment...

First thing: And HQ that has T3? I was a little shocked with it. I am not one to always take the high cost "named" HQs....but it looks to me that you are only going to want to take them. Am I missing something about the Heralds? Is there a way to make them survivable and playable?

Demon Princes: God I love these guys...but if you want a Psyker, and just a level 2, you are paying and extra 100ish points, putting him close to some of the better, named HQs. The ONLY reason I can see that they did this is because you can take them as Heavy with certain leaders (and how "fair" would it be with 5 Psykers on the table of level2+ that can also survive?).

So to sum it up - are their viable ways to take CD HQs without resorting to either overpaying or resorting to some of the more expensive 'named' ones?

Well, the fact that you can take four Heralds per FOC is certainly something. And they can take 30 points in Daemonic Gifts each.

And you know Heralds are just slightly more exalted Lesser Daemons. They're basically just regular ol' troops, except they somehow won the favor of their patron god and get to be in charge now. If you want a big bad scary HQ, look at the Greater Daemons, like the Great Unclean Ones, Blood Thirsters, Keepers of Secrets, etc.

The heralds can:
a) be psykers (except Khorne)
b) get an AP2 weapon easily
c) can be mounted on something for a stat boost
d) generally have higher LD than the grunts, helping with instability
e) can be cheap

Have a look at some of the other threads, rather than me regurgitate a load of stuff here.

Suffice to say the new Daemons are incredibly dense, with all sorts of interactions that can make them horribly vicious, and that's why they can get expensive. Special chars are always better value as you don't have any choices, but there are many different options for the vanilla choices.

Except Karanak, who simply rocks all ways!

Just as an aside here:

HQ's with T3 are quite common, unless you are paying Space Marines. Almost all Eldar, DE, Guard (i think) etc HQ's are T3.

XSPYXEx pretty much has it.

Not every HQ has to be an indestructable murdermachine for cheap.

The heralds are ok. Not amazing (they aren't SM) , but not too bad, especially given that you can take a heap of them

 Ascalam wrote:
Just as an aside here:

HQ's with T3 are quite common, unless you are paying Space Marines. Almost all Eldar, DE, Guard (i think) etc HQ's are T3.

XSPYXEx pretty much has it.

Not every HQ has to be an indestructable murdermachine for cheap.

The heralds are ok. Not amazing (they aren't SM) , but not too bad, especially given that you can take a heap of them

Autarchs are T3. Eldrad, the most common Eldar HQ, is T4, as are all Phoeniz Lords. The Avatar is T6. So Eldar actually have some rather beefy HQ options.

DE HQ's are nearly all T3, but that is somewhat mitigated by the 2++ shadow field m ost of the ones actually worth fielding can take. Other, like Haemonculi, are simply not expected to survive if they get caught by the enemy (despite being T4).

IG HQ's, like the De described above, are not expected to live if caught. They do their job via support, sitting in a command tank or guarded ruin in the back.

Those are all different concepts than having T3 models that are expected to charge forward and wreck faces trusting a 5++ save.

TBH, I wouldn't be seeing the heralds as face wreckers, there are other options for that. Initially they seem to be force multipliers, via loci, at the head of a large group of Troops. With a possible side bar as hidden challenge traps. Anyone looking to kick ass with them is going to be sadly disappointed IMHO

Except Karanak.

 azreal13 wrote:
TBH, I wouldn't be seeing the heralds as face wreckers, there are other options for that. Initially they seem to be force multipliers, via loci, at the head of a large group of Troops. With a possible side bar as hidden challenge traps. Anyone looking to kick ass with them is going to be sadly disappointed IMHO

Except Karanak.

Except that Slaaneshii Heralds are likely one of the best character assassins out there...

Slap a HoS w/Beguilement + Greater Etherblade + Lesser Reward (aim for Cleaving Strike or else just take a basic Etherblade) + Steed in a unit of Fiends is simply ugly. On the charge you'll have either 7/S5 attacks with ap2 and re-roll misses, or else if you got Cleaving Strike, 6/S5 attacks with every 6 to-hit becoming S9!
And best of all, you can force you opponent into unwanted challenges since they can't refuse, AND you get to pick which character excepts. (IG & CSM's will hate you for life!)

Oh, and the Fiends of corse do their little dance and knock -5 to the enemy's initiative so yeah, pretty much nothing hits before your I7 Herald of epic-win!

I've decided to take a herald of nurgle on a planaquin with a greater etherblade and plague flail, simply for the extra attack. This means base the herald has 5 attacks at ap 2 and str 6. Pretty good.

Greater daemons are wonderful as well.

You can get around the toughness issue with loci.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
TBH, I wouldn't be seeing the heralds as face wreckers, there are other options for that. Initially they seem to be force multipliers, via loci, at the head of a large group of Troops. With a possible side bar as hidden challenge traps. Anyone looking to kick ass with them is going to be sadly disappointed IMHO

Except Karanak.

Except that Slaaneshii Heralds are likely one of the best character assassins out there...

Slap a HoS w/Beguilement + Greater Etherblade + Lesser Reward (aim for Cleaving Strike or else just take a basic Etherblade) + Steed in a unit of Fiends is simply ugly. On the charge you'll have either 7/S5 attacks with ap2 and re-roll misses, or else if you got Cleaving Strike, 6/S5 attacks with every 6 to-hit becoming S9!
And best of all, you can force you opponent into unwanted challenges since they can't refuse, AND you get to pick which character excepts. (IG & CSM's will hate you for life!)

Oh, and the Fiends of corse do their little dance and knock -5 to the enemy's initiative so yeah, pretty much nothing hits before your I7 Herald of epic-win!

That's kind of what I was alluding to. Nobody cares you're T3 if you hit them before they've got their pants on!

The only economical Special Character seems to be Epidemius.

He's exactly the same price as a Nurgle Herald on Palanquin with the Locus of FnP, but also comes with the Tally Special Rule.

I need to read more into the rest of them, but so far that's what I found.

Still not sure whether to take him though.

No no, skulltaker is the best of the best for named heralds.

While epi is pretty good still, the army is slower and thus harder to get his tally working.

With skulltaker being extra killy already and also immune to instant death, he's a winner in my book.

As for epi, the model I was using for him is now simply a herald on palanquin with grimore and loci of FNP.

My first game with new daemons I used skulltaker as an ally with my CSM. He completely outperformed every single thing ont he table, winning 4 challenges. The opponents never got to strike....

Skulltaker will wreck face until he runs into someone with a 2+ save.

he did just fine against azrael. Granted, i took him on a juggernaught,m so he was t5/5A/3w. So charging he got 7 WS9, S6 attacks , two of which caused instant death. He is pretty much murder in it's purest form. Also, he costs 145 points, killing 2 normal sergeants, a DWK character, and azrael. i think he got his points back

OK - so a couple things:

Yes, you can get 4 heralds and the like - they are basically 'lieutenants' that can either go solo (not recommended) or rip face from inside a squad...

But - the T3 kind of balance with such a cheap unit that gets some amazing bonuses...

And as Deamons, you don't just sit back - you have to be intelligently aggressive - don't wait for your opponent to bring the fight, or try to lead them all over the board (like Tau), but hit them hard and fast...and the heralds make this effective...

Is that about right?

 juraigamer wrote:
No no, skulltaker is the best of the best for named heralds.

While epi is pretty good still, the army is slower and thus harder to get his tally working.

With skulltaker being extra killy already and also immune to instant death, he's a winner in my book.

As for epi, the model I was using for him is now simply a herald on palanquin with grimore and loci of FNP.

He's good, but I don't think he's that good to earn the points back. Skulltaker is one of those uber killy units that either gets targetted all the time or gets in and gets a phantom power fist three times to the face.

There are ways of getting stuff in cc quickly for Nurgle. The fly units plus icons and deepstriking GUO or large units of Beasts of Nurgle in close looks good. Also the amount of damage these two units output and can take is insane.

In all Nurgle I might take Epidemius but the lack of loci of FnP hurts him despite the Tally.