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If I fire a blast weapon, let's say a vindicator round, at a target and it scatters onto a close combat, and I kill all of my own models/units that are in that combat, may I then shoot the enemy's unit since they are no longer locked in combat?

Seems so.

Page 23. 'Who can fight'

Since the unit no longer has models in base contact with enemy models, it is no longer 'locked in combat'.
There's no restriction on any phase of the turn, no timing. It's just a blanket statement.

It will depend on exactly how you treat being locked in combat.

Much the same as there is disagreement over whether a unit that has been charged can fire overwatch I believe there would be some debate surrounding this, hinging once again on whether the "locked in combat" rules being presented in the fight sub-phase means it's only checked during that sub-phase.

You could make a case for saying they continue to be locked until the next fight sub-phase.

I think they could be fired at. The key requirement for not being able to be fired as is being locked in combat. As soon as your unit has ceased to exist, the enemy unit can no longer be locked. The only alternative I can see is if the enemy unit remains locked in combat until the end of the next assault phase, but then it would be locked in combat for ever as there is no mechanism in that situation for them to ever win combat and become unlocked. They can't kill all the enemy or cause more wounds, because the enemy unit no longer exists.

Shooting is done sequentially.


First I will shoot a Basilisk: I cannot shoot at the squad of assault marines as they are in combat with a couple guardsmen. I can shoot at the Rhino that is a couple inches away. the blast scatters and kills the last of the guardsmen in the melee. The marines are no longer in combat with anything.

Now I shoot my second Basilisk: There is an enemy unit of Assault Marines who are not locked in combat. I can shoot them.

You check the eligibility of the target at the time you are shooting at them. So if a scattering blast removes the restriction that was preventing you from activly shooting a unit you will be allowed to shoot other stuff at them.

p 28 - "Models cannot shoot at units locked in close combat"
p 23 - "Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat"

Should this happy circumstance befall you (or should a Grey Knights army arrange such a circumstance via Karamazov) then your remaining units may indeed blast the crap out of the now unengaged enemy.

Following this train of thought.

1. If I do 25% casualties to my own unit, do I check for morale?

2. If the answer to 1 is yes, do I fall back? Do I make an opposed initiative test?

 kronk wrote:
Following this train of thought.

1. If I do 25% casualties to my own unit, do I check for morale?

2. If the answer to 1 is yes, do I fall back? Do I make an opposed initiative test?

1) No. P.28 for reference.

2) No, as units locked in combat can not move except for pile in moves.

I don't see a separation between failing out of combat from loosing a combat or loosing 25% or more in a phase. So yes they would fallback and the enemy must try to make their sweeping advance.

 Gravmyr wrote:
I don't see a separation between failing out of combat from loosing a combat or loosing 25% or more in a phase. So yes they would fallback and the enemy must try to make their sweeping advance.

No, they can not make a fall back move, as they are locked in combat, and P. 23 tells us that "While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot."

Is a Fall back move a Pile in move?

For Reference "Units make a Fall Back move immediately upon failing a Morale check" P. 30

They specifically call a fall back move a move.

They don't take a morale check for losing 25%, pg 28 "units locked in CC do not take morale checks caused by shooting" blah blah blah bottom right paragraph.

Then you never fall back out of combat. So no sweeping advances. Not gonna bother taking the tests from now on.

Edit: Good catch Lynch.

p 28 - "Units that are locked in close combat do not take Morale checks or Pinning tests caused by shooting and cannot Go to Ground; they are much too focused on fighting to be worried about being shot at."

 Gravmyr wrote:
Then you never fall back out of combat. So no sweeping advances. Not gonna bother taking the tests from now on.

Edit: Good catch Lynch.

Totally unsupported by the rules.

P. 29 specifies that a unit locked in combat, makes a fall back move if they lose an assault and fail their test. This specifically over rides the locked in combat rules about only making pile in moves.

"Losing an assault: Units that lose a close combat (usually from suffering more Wounds than they inflicted) must pass a Morale check to hold their ground. If they fail, they must Fall Back." P.29

Now didnt you just say they cannot fall back because that would be a "move" and you cannot "move" unless its to pile in? Funny charge move specifically states you can move into BTB with an enemy, but you seem to have an issue with that "specific" rule.

Fragile wrote:
Now didnt you just say they cannot fall back because that would be a "move" and you cannot "move" unless its to pile in? Funny charge move specifically states you can move into BTB with an enemy, but you seem to have an issue with that "specific" rule.

Pedantic and misrepresenting the rules much?

You charge into combat, once in combat the restriction on movement limits you to pile ins and fall backs at the end of the combat phase.

 liturgies of blood wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Now didnt you just say they cannot fall back because that would be a "move" and you cannot "move" unless its to pile in? Funny charge move specifically states you can move into BTB with an enemy, but you seem to have an issue with that "specific" rule.

Pedantic and misrepresenting the rules much?

You charge into combat, once in combat the restriction on movement limits you to pile ins and fall backs at the end of the combat phase.

Not quite. I know what Fragile is refering to. Death Reaper has stated, time and again that the word "cannot" always takes precedent over "must". DR has stated that once the first model has made BtB contact the reamining models in a unit can no longer move, despite specific instructions to the contrary.

It's an old argument. One that I would gladly join in on if anyone wanted to start a new thread.

Anyway, No you don't take morale or pinning tests(from shooting) as long a unit is locked in combat.
The rest of the issue. I don't know.
If there are any models reamaining in both units, then they would still be considered in close combat, even if they aren't in BtB as they still have to make pile in moves.
If no models are left in one unit or the other, then they are unengaged.

Seems like a fair way to play it.

No go on and tell me why I'm wrong to be fair.

I can see, and would be content to play, that if an engaged unit has it's opponent wiped out due to shooting, it would be immediately allowed a consolidation move. I can further see that If you didn't allow the consolidation, then the fighting unit is still engaged, they just don't realize that the guys that they are fighting are all dead.

Fragile wrote:
Now didnt you just say they cannot fall back because that would be a "move" and you cannot "move" unless its to pile in? Funny charge move specifically states you can move into BTB with an enemy, but you seem to have an issue with that "specific" rule.

"Units that lose a close combat (usually from suffering more Wounds than they inflicted) must pass a Morale check to hold their ground. If they fail, they must Fall Back." P.29

Notice the specific exception here.

Notice how P. 28 does not mention a specific exception to the locked rules like P. 29 does...

Lol! Yes I suppose you could fire at survivors, but I wouldn't rely on that tactic myself

 DeathReaper wrote:
No, they can not make a fall back move, as they are locked in combat, and P. 23 tells us that "While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot."

Is a Fall back move a Pile in move?

P. 29 specifies that a unit locked in combat, makes a fall back move if they lose an assault and fail their test. This specifically over rides the locked in combat rules about only making pile in moves.

"Losing an assault: Units that lose a close combat (usually from suffering more Wounds than they inflicted) must pass a Morale check to hold their ground. If they fail, they must Fall Back." P.29

Does it not seem these two statements are contradictory?

On a related note. Does the side that did not get wiped out from the shooting get to consolidate?

Similar situation came up in a game last night (Nids v Nids) where my Doom was locked in combat with a squad of Genestealers and in my opponents phase he life sucked the Genestealers to death, leaving hi out of combat. We played he could consolidate and any other unit (that hadn't shot yet) could shoot him.

Taking this one step further, if my scatter wipes out the enemy unit that my own unit was engaged with, can my surviving unit shoot?

Example: I have 6 marines locked in combat with 5 guardmen. My Vindicator blast scatters onto the combat and kills all of the guardsmen, leaving my marines alive (lucky invul saves or something). Can my marines fire in this shooting phase since they are no longer locked in combat?

 Flinty wrote:
I think they could be fired at. The key requirement for not being able to be fired as is being locked in combat. As soon as your unit has ceased to exist, the enemy unit can no longer be locked. The only alternative I can see is if the enemy unit remains locked in combat until the end of the next assault phase, but then it would be locked in combat for ever as there is no mechanism in that situation for them to ever win combat and become unlocked. They can't kill all the enemy or cause more wounds, because the enemy unit no longer exists.

This. If you shot a transport and the squad inside had to disembark, then you're obviously then allowed to shoot the former occupants with any remaining shooting you have.

tidalwake wrote:
Taking this one step further, if my scatter wipes out the enemy unit that my own unit was engaged with, can my surviving unit shoot?

Example: I have 6 marines locked in combat with 5 guardmen. My Vindicator blast scatters onto the combat and kills all of the guardsmen, leaving my marines alive (lucky invul saves or something). Can my marines fire in this shooting phase since they are no longer locked in combat?

Basically, yes. Shooting is sequential, you do not need to nominate all the shooting units in one go.

@HJ, the unit does not get to consolidate, as there are no rules saying they can consolidate after the enemy unit is wiped out through shooting.

The unit can shoot since it is no longer locked.

Fragile wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
No, they can not make a fall back move, as they are locked in combat, and P. 23 tells us that "While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot."

Is a Fall back move a Pile in move?

P. 29 specifies that a unit locked in combat, makes a fall back move if they lose an assault and fail their test. This specifically over rides the locked in combat rules about only making pile in moves.

"Losing an assault: Units that lose a close combat (usually from suffering more Wounds than they inflicted) must pass a Morale check to hold their ground. If they fail, they must Fall Back." P.29

Does it not seem these two statements are contradictory?

No, as the first of the quotes, the one i underscored, is in reference to a unit taking 25% casualties from shooting whilst locked in combat.

Also the rule about losing an assault is more specific than the locked in combat rules, therefore it over rides the can only make pile in moves from locked.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Fragile wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
No, they can not make a fall back move, as they are locked in combat, and P. 23 tells us that "While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot."

Is a Fall back move a Pile in move?

P. 29 specifies that a unit locked in combat, makes a fall back move if they lose an assault and fail their test. This specifically over rides the locked in combat rules about only making pile in moves.

"Losing an assault: Units that lose a close combat (usually from suffering more Wounds than they inflicted) must pass a Morale check to hold their ground. If they fail, they must Fall Back." P.29

Does it not seem these two statements are contradictory?

No, as the first of the quotes, the one i underscored, is in reference to a unit taking 25% casualties from shooting whilst locked in combat.

Also the rule about losing an assault is more specific than the locked in combat rules, therefore it over rides the can only make pile in moves from locked.

OFF TOPIC. If y'all want to discuss this start another thread. I'll join in. (and own!)

 Idolator wrote:
OFF TOPIC. If y'all want to discuss this start another thread. I'll join in. (and own!)

You missed the first part of my post...

"@HJ, the unit does not get to consolidate, as there are no rules saying they can consolidate after the enemy unit is wiped out through shooting.

The unit can shoot since it is no longer locked. " - me.

sirlynchmob wrote:
They don't take a morale check for losing 25%, pg 28 "units locked in CC do not take morale checks caused by shooting" blah blah blah bottom right paragraph.

Thanks!

Wow...never thought of something like this happening...

So some followup:

-In a scoring game, does wiping out your own unit give the enemy VP?
-What if you wipe your guys off before any other unit has (First Blood is still up) - Does your opponent get First Blood or is it still up? (I assume they do NOT get FB)
-Same with your Warlord...what if, chaos gods forgive, this were to happen to your warlord? Does the opponent get the point?

1) Yes, as it is units of yours killed during the game. Same as mishapping and being destroyed
2) Neither, as from memory it requires you to destroy an enemy unit before hte opponent
3) Yes, as StW simply requires the warlord to be dead.