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I'm an Ogres player and need some advice on building a list to go against WoC. My opponent likes to field large units of Warriors and Knights. I've also seen him use a Hellcannon but don't know what else he has available. I've not seen him use Marauders though.

I can do a Gutstar easily enough but I'm afraid that his knights will tear them apart or at least deny them the charge. Another option I've been thinking about is a gunline with Belchers, Noblars as weak shooting/redirectors and a Cannon or possibly two. I'd have to run units of Bulls to make up the points of Core and I don't know how well they'd do against WoC.

Advice, suggestions, experiences? Thanks.

It might be an odd time when the thundertusk and scraplaunchers work well. Hitting him with, admittedly wussy, KB templates, is exactly what elite units hate. And their super duper armor save does nothing. Thundertusks make anyone within 6" ASF, which really helps the ogres. And the stone thrower isn't terrible (at least no misfire).

I don't think the shots from the leadbelchers is enough to warrant the cost.

You could get wacky and throw a giant at him. If he lasts 2 rounds he'd probably make back his points. And he has the chance of doing something really good. Though he could also do something sucky.

Gnoblar Trappers could just be an annoying pest and whittle him down. If you did that twice it's easily worth it.

They're a hard fight. Ironguts are probably the way to go because you'll negate most of their chaos armor and be 2+ to wound. With a Thundertusk around you'll attck at the same time. Pretty sure you come out ahead on that fight.

Ironguts with a Thundertusk nearby.

And characters with high strength attacks. A BSB with the Ogre Blade thats got a TT nearby can do some serious damage before the enemy swings.


Also, how big are his Knight units exactly? Anything 10 or less should be easily handled by an Irongut unit. And I doubt he's running more than that.

Skullcrushers are a different matter. Use Sabretusks to block them off. Do not engage them if you can help it.

As a WoC player, I'm curious why you find the knights easy and skullcrushers terrifying, relatively.

-They go before him
-They still have a large armor resist if he doesn't go Irongut
-They negate his armor mostly
-Better LD
-Same S/T which is a big Ogre bonus
-1 less attack but also no stomp or impact
-Marks are really good

I get that they're great, I'm just wondering why knights are 'easily handled' whereas skullcrushers are 'don't engage'. Skullcrushers/knights have same initiative, same leadership, same weapon skill, same toughness, same armor. Reasonably close on attacks if knights are marked Khorne, just losing out on strength of the juggernauts (which have initiative of terrible), but that's made up partially by more rider attacks. No stomp on the juggernauts against ogres.

Oh, in case it matters, my opponent has been using Tzeenrch as his mark. I don't know if he has juggers or not. I do know he's been alternating his deathstart makeup between his knights and his Warriors so I might end up facing either.

I also need help with ogres vs woc.

I got stomped the other night by a chaos lord of khorne with 29 ahw warriors of khorne, 5 knights of tzeentch with level 1 sorceror, 6 skullcrushers led by khorne bsb on jugger and 6 trolls led by throgg in a 2500pt game.

I had a tyrant, firebelly, level 2 maw caster, 13 ogres, 8 ironguts, thundertusk, 8 leadies and 4 mournfangs.

I am considering dropping at least 4 of the leadies to get my ironblaster in once it is built and maybe proxying some maneaters to see how they run.

I would have to drop the ironguts and some bulls to proxy the maneaters as that is all the models I have currently.

 Evertras wrote:
I get that they're great, I'm just wondering why knights are 'easily handled' whereas skullcrushers are 'don't engage'. Skullcrushers/knights have same initiative, same leadership, same weapon skill, same toughness, same armor. Reasonably close on attacks if knights are marked Khorne, just losing out on strength of the juggernauts (which have initiative of terrible), but that's made up partially by more rider attacks. No stomp on the juggernauts against ogres.

Because the Knights only have 1 wound and far fewer attacks.

 Grey Templar wrote:

Because the Knights only have 1 wound and far fewer attacks.

Yea Juggs have 3W each so if you did 2 wounds in one round to them they're still at full fighting capacity while 2 wounds to 5 knights cuts them down to 3 guys

 Grey Templar wrote:

 Evertras wrote:
I get that they're great, I'm just wondering why knights are 'easily handled' whereas skullcrushers are 'don't engage'. Skullcrushers/knights have same initiative, same leadership, same weapon skill, same toughness, same armor. Reasonably close on attacks if knights are marked Khorne, just losing out on strength of the juggernauts (which have initiative of terrible), but that's made up partially by more rider attacks. No stomp on the juggernauts against ogres.

Because the Knights only have 1 wound and far fewer attacks.

I'd disagree on the far fewer attacks, but duly noted on the wounds.

For the attacks, let's say you have 6 knights and 3 skullcrushers (same frontage). If the knights are marked khorne to match the skullcrushers, the riders have 3 attacks each. That's 18 S5 attacks. Then the mounts have 2 S4 attacks each, so 12 S4 attacks. The skullcrushers have 9 rider attacks and 9 mount attacks. On the charge, that's 9 S5 attacks and 9 S6 attacks, then 18 S5 attacks every round thereafter. So the knights have the same number of S5 attacks if given the same frontage, plus 12 S4 attacks. That being said, a single wound will start whittling that down quickly, yes.

(edit)

Also, apparently he's facing Tzeentch knights. I don't really see the draw of Tzeentch knights, and yes, I'd be way less afraid of those than skullcrushers.

The draw with Tzeentch is the Blasted Standard. It basically makes the unit almost immune to cannons on a 2+, and practically immune to anything else.

ive played more then a few games vrs chaos using my ogres. and... some things i figured out. i also used to play chaos back in the day.

first and foremost. figure out your core. generally i like a big block of ogre bulls. why? well, you get more of them, and a parry save. that parry save is generally more useful then a higher str attack. (see below) i also go horde formation, usually 6 wide, and 3 deep. add in a BSB with a standard of discipline, and perhaps a butcher or SM. thats your anchor unit.

next, look for some ranged supoprt. leadies work very well, and 4 of them can dish out a decent amount of shots. you wont wipe out an enemy unit, but you WILL wear them down.

mournfangs are simply awsome. kit them up with HA/IF and a dragonhide banner. they can charge into just about anything in the chaos book short of the jugger calv, and win.

maneaters - pistols, scouts and poison make for a really good harrasment unit. if your opponent is nice enough to allow a spot in the backfield to set them up in behind his lines, do it. otherwise, they can bolster and support your ogre block. these guys are also pretty awsome in CC

as for characters.. the SM is a must take. i like giving him a greedyfist/hellheart combo, but any other setup is fine. he dosent need weapons or armor though. a lvl 2 beats caster will also provide much fun. wyssans wildform basically garentees you get +1 t and s. and takes some pressure off the maw caster for those buffs. and as the sig spell you can always have it. a bsb bruiser is pretty much a given on what he brings, and in larger games a tyrant with some kit will make a great beatstick.

i would stay away from larger units like giants, thundertusks and stone horns they look great, but in less then 2500 pt games they just tend to die rather quick. the points are better off on other things.

finally ironblasters are very worth it. they are great at sniping down his warshrines (a critical unit) cannon, or even his core selections. a well placed shot can take down 3-8 guys a turn, with no saves. (except ward/regen) if he likes to field hordes, a small unit of 10 gnoblar trappers can be super funny. use them a sa redirector, and whenthey get charged every model takes a DT test. your gnoblars will loose, break and or die, but no one else in your army cares. plus it might make him reconsider his charge, allowing your leadies and maneaters to sit back and blast away with impunity.

The Ironblaster can also take out Skullcrushers. You can easily take out a couple before they hit combat. And unlike the Knights they won't have the Blasted Standard.

4 leaddies get an average of 14 shots, which is 2 warriors dead a turn. Not great, but it does happen with no fear of retaliation. And remember, half the time you will get more than 14 shots.

Played 2000 points this weekend. I took a 9-man gutstar backed up with Firebellies, Thundertusk, Mournfang, an Ironblaster, a small Ogre unit for flanking/delaying, and some Gnoblars for redirect and support shooting.

Then we rolled Watchtower. :(

He got his 50-man Warrior unit inside with Tzeench and there was literally nothing I could do to cause enough wounds in sufficient time to evict him before the game ended. I did a good amount of damage to the unit, despite the added resilience but nowhere near enough to make any difference.

Assuming I mix up my list and use a couple of Butchers instead of the 'bellies, what lore would be useful in a Watchtower situation? Or am I going to have to resort to using allies like Skaven to get Bless with Filth?

The Watchtower is just a dumb mission all around because the only thing you need to do is be in the tower. a 50 man block of Tzeentch warriors isn't going anywhere.

 Grey Templar wrote:
The Watchtower is just a dumb mission all around because the only thing you need to do is be in the tower. a 50 man block of Tzeentch warriors isn't going anywhere.

It is such a dumb mission in fact that I have never seen it played. If it gets rolled everyone I know just rerolls.

 jonolikespie wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
The Watchtower is just a dumb mission all around because the only thing you need to do is be in the tower. a 50 man block of Tzeentch warriors isn't going anywhere.

It is such a dumb mission in fact that I have never seen it played. If it gets rolled everyone I know just rerolls.

Seconded.

Well, I've certainly learned that lesson.

Next game is against High Elves. 2000 points. Any mandatory units/characters I need to take for this?

as ogres, i have found a nice little combo for taking and then holding the tower. its a bit of a gamble, and really only works at 2500 or more.

tyrant, fencers blades, glittering scales.
slaughtermaster, lvl 4, talisman of preservation.
lvl 2 beast butcher with a hellheart
your bsb.
4 maneaters with brace of pistols, poison and stubborn.

i attach the tyrant and SM to the maneaters, and the other characters to a big unit of bulls.

i figured it out, but its best to play the scenario as if you dont control the tower at the start. if you have a choice, let the other guy have it.

use your army to go after the stuff protecting the tower. take out his core, use cannons to shoot down support, etc. the maneaters + SM+tyrant assault the tower. tyou get 3 guys who can fight - so send the tyrant and SM plus a ME. your tyrant will dish out the HURT and not take a hit back, while the SM and ME can add in some more. issue and accept challanges with the tyrant, and keep your beast/maw buffs going. it shouldnt be more then a few rounds before you win and force the other guy out. once inside, keep the unit there and just keep defending it. (the only combat res that matters in building assaults is kills, so 3 of the killiest units around in the fight is a good thing) and once inside, the enemy has to keep backing off, allowing you to stand and shoot everytime they charge. plus, with your army in support role, you should be able to limit the ability of the other guy to counter charge.

i lost 6 watchtowers in a row. then i tried the above, and its worked for my last 4 watchtower games. (its a fav for tourneys here and league games - plus all the test games i ran trying to figure this out, and confirm it. )

i go with maneaters because: 4 attacks profile, str 5, good WS, good BS, pistol brace counts as AHW, these guys are TOUGH and with stubborn, they wont care about loosing a combat. the tyrant is there to dish out attacks, 6 normally 9 with a particular beast buff in place, and with beast/maw he could reach str 10 T6 with only 2 buffs in place. and he hits everything on 3+, and is only hit back on 5+ at BEST. the SM joins the combo for buffs, plus he has a 4+ ward save to help absoarb some fire. (plus everytime he casts he can heal himself, so he can afford to take a few wounds) all 3 = REALLY tough unit to fight, and one that is pretty survivable as well. plus it has a bunch of decent ranged attacks to boot.