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Looking at a Dwarfen gunline list and tactic, I am debating on whether or not it would be better take Quarrellers or Thunderers. Now normally I take GW Quarrellers, and they are used to great affect. However, with a list that is mainly gunline, I am looking at taking Thunderers instead, or at least some. Would this be a better idea? Or just stick with all Quarrellers?

I am also considering taking a Master Engineer, and putting him 3in away from 2 Cannons. But again, this is only a consideration, and I am wondering if it'd be good to have one

Great weapon Quarrellers.
Way more flexible, and won't run when hit.

Mountain-Breaker wrote:
Looking at a Dwarfen gunline list and tactic

Mountain-Breaker wrote:
Looking at a Dwarfen gunline list and tactic

Mountain-Breaker wrote:
Looking at a Dwarfen gunline list and tactic

Hahahahaha XD

Seriously though: Stick with Thunderers and GW. They might not be as efficient in melee as your generic Clan Warriors, but they provide you with additional fire power.

The reason I like the GW Quarrellers is because they have a longer range, but still hit ar S4. Although they may not be quite as strong as Dwarf Handguns.

Also I guess this should be called, "Dwarfen Ranged List", rather than gunline.

But I feel like a small unit or two of Thunderers may be good as well.

Hmm while dwarf handguns are very nice, if you're spamming quite a few +S4 warmachines then I think it doesnt matter too much what the infantry use

Thats true. I am gonna stick with the GW Quarrellers. More worth it overall.

@ 2400, you can get 4 units of 30 crossbows with great weapons, 3 cannons, 2 grudge throwers and an anvil.

It's down right mean.

GW Quarrelers look great on paper, but my shielded Thunderers usually perform better. But if I may ask, why is it a question of either? Why not both? Could also go full out crazy gunline and have your core be all Quarrelers and Thunderers!

Well thats the debate I am really having is to take the shielded Thunderers or GW Quarrellers. I have found the Quarrellers to work very well, and they can hell in different fields. But the Thunderers also work well, but can get a bit pricey.

I may include both of them, some of each, and it will be effective im sure.

But I have also considered an entirely ranged list, it rwally does sounds awesome! And it would be interesting and fun to see how many enemies I could kill before they reached my lines, if they did. I feel as though that could work well, GW Quarrellers line in front, and Thunderers behind. Maybe a few Slayers inbetween to help with the brunt of the blow.

What about Rangers with GW and Crossbows? They can Scout into a forward position and hold stuff up nobly while the rest of your Gunline shoots the heck out of anything else? I have used this tactic before, and have done a similar thing with Slayers--if you have enough of them you can plonk them down in the middle of your gunline, advance (slowly...short legs) forward and create a roadblock that everything else has to go around...into your field of fire.

I have found that if you take Thunderers, you had better take a Horde of them...that way you can survive in combat. The drawback, of course, (same goes for Organ Guns) is the reduced range. 24" doesn't give you very much breathing space.

A horde of thunderers?! I've never seen that laid down. That's kinda bananas!

I've really liked my unit of 20 rangers with crossbows and greatweapons. Get to pepper units with shooting- and they can be great for scraping that last wound of a hydra or hellpit that your cannon left on a single wound. They won't carry the day on their own, but they'll whittle things down and threaten light units of chaff that can't take a hit.

My thoughts:

Why restrict yourself to just one or the other? Quarrellers are better in combat, so when (not if) they get hit they're going to cause a little more damage than the Thunderers. Also, you'll still want to have at least one big anvil to protect your war machines with a BSB and maybe lord in it. Ironbreakers are a good choice, but you have to take them really deep since they aren't stubborn. Or if you want to go for the "we're stubborn so we'll just cause a lot of damage", take a 10x4 of Hammerers.

Also, there isn't much of a reason to take your ranged in big blocks. Take them in small blocks of 10 and have the option of shooting at more things.

 PinkSpaceHippy wrote:
My thoughts:

Why restrict yourself to just one or the other? Quarrellers are better in combat, so when (not if) they get hit they're going to cause a little more damage than the Thunderers. Also, you'll still want to have at least one big anvil to protect your war machines with a BSB and maybe lord in it. Ironbreakers are a good choice, but you have to take them really deep since they aren't stubborn. Or if you want to go for the "we're stubborn so we'll just cause a lot of damage", take a 10x4 of Hammerers.

Also, there isn't much of a reason to take your ranged in big blocks. Take them in small blocks of 10 and have the option of shooting at more things.

Max unit size on hammerers is 30.
Max number of specials of the same type is 3.
No can do the 10x4.

Thunderers with shields need to be deep to hold out in combat. If deployed deep, you just spent a lot of points on shooting that isn't shooting.
On the other hand, Quarrellers deployed wide both shoot and fight effectively.

You don't need a deep block to defend warmachines.
Cannons, stone throwers and the anvil can all fire through your own troops without penalty.
"Defend" your warmachines with the quarrellers.
In the list I posted, you should get ~160 S4 shots, and maybe a stand and fire, and 6 cannon shots, 4 stone thrower shots, before the enemy goes into blocks of 30 S5 attacks.

-Matt

A horde of Thunderers would be quite the sight, but certainly not worth it. The GW Quarrellers would do much better. I often use the Ranger Quarrellers to great effect, and if they arent Rangers, I use them to guard the war machines. This usually works well, at least one round of shooting can get in, then thwy can take on scouts and skirmishers and the like.

I regularly run a double Hammerers list, it has 16 GW Quarreller Rangers, and they always comes in handy and work well. This is my most solid list.(at least for 2500pts)

Big blocks of ranged infantry though probably wouldnt be too good. In an entirely ranged army I can see it, smaller ones offer more options though.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Max unit size on hammerers is 30.

According to what? Not the Dwarf book. They're unit size 5+. And have been since about 2005...

He's thinking slayers.

Ar har! Makes more sense.

 Red_Zeke wrote:
Ar har! Makes more sense.

Yup. My bad.

-Matt

Yeah its 5+. Definitely wouldnt be good if not. As I usually do units of 35.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I am interested in the 10x4 horde block though. That sounds like it could be some fun.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

 PinkSpaceHippy wrote:
My thoughts:

Why restrict yourself to just one or the other? Quarrellers are better in combat, so when (not if) they get hit they're going to cause a little more damage than the Thunderers. Also, you'll still want to have at least one big anvil to protect your war machines with a BSB and maybe lord in it. Ironbreakers are a good choice, but you have to take them really deep since they aren't stubborn. Or if you want to go for the "we're stubborn so we'll just cause a lot of damage", take a 10x4 of Hammerers.

Also, there isn't much of a reason to take your ranged in big blocks. Take them in small blocks of 10 and have the option of shooting at more things.

Max unit size on hammerers is 30.
Max number of specials of the same type is 3.
No can do the 10x4.

Thunderers with shields need to be deep to hold out in combat. If deployed deep, you just spent a lot of points on shooting that isn't shooting.
On the other hand, Quarrellers deployed wide both shoot and fight effectively.

You don't need a deep block to defend warmachines.
Cannons, stone throwers and the anvil can all fire through your own troops without penalty.
"Defend" your warmachines with the quarrellers.
In the list I posted, you should get ~160 S4 shots, and maybe a stand and fire, and 6 cannon shots, 4 stone thrower shots, before the enemy goes into blocks of 30 S5 attacks.

-Matt

Thunderers aren't built for combat like Quarrellers are. That said, neither is going to cause a whole lot of damage in combat. They're there to soften things up and make big problems smaller. They're going to lose combat, period, unless you're taking a big block (which is bad because it restricts your shooting too much). If you have more than two ranks, you're wasting the entire point of them being in your list (their shooting). When they do get into combat, you're only likely to get steadfast against individual monsters/chariots because any combatty unit that hits them will cause enough damage to take out your second rank (if not put you under 5 models anyway). So, you want to slightly turn them in so they can still see and shoot things, but so that the enemy will need to stop and reform rather than overrun.

I didn't say you necessarily need a deep block to defend your war machines unless you're going to use Ironbreakers (they need steadfast). While quarrellers can cause some damage in combat, they can't cause enough to effectively defend your war machines. Odds are pretty good that if you deploy quarrellers in front of your war machines to protect them, they're going to send something big enough to charge in, kill them, and overrun into the war machines, or at least charge in, break them, catch them, and pursue to 1" away from your war machines. If you want something to protect your war machines, you need a big combatty unit (even long beards could do this, but hammerers are better since they're stubborn and Ironbreakers are better since they're 3+).

Mountain-Breaker wrote:
Yeah its 5+. Definitely wouldnt be good if not. As I usually do units of 35.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I am interested in the 10x4 horde block though. That sounds like it could be some fun.

While running 7x5 is optimizing base contact against a another 5-wide 20mm, going horde gives gives you another 50% attacks. That's huge for a hammer unit, especially when you're relying on killing more of them than you give up (which hammerers do).

I have been considering more and more to take Hammerer hordes. In fact I just made a list today with blocks of 30 Hammerers, in which I am debating whether to use them in 6x5 or 10x3. I see what you mean about them killing more and I feel like the horde option would be even better. But may have disadvantages.

Also I agree about the ranged business. I have used Ironbreakers in a small unit before to guard war machines and it works well, but I also have success in that area with the GW Quarrellers. And bigger blocks of ranged units is a total waste, unless they are Rangers, and in that case, in a Ranger based list.

At 30 I'm not sure. I don't like flimsy things in blocks of only 30 because you quickly start losing the point of the hoard (i.e., you lose your third rank). I'd try to find 120 more points for the fourth rank and run them that way. You'll start with max rank bonus (even until you lose 6 of them), but your horde will be protected. IMO stacking deep is only necessary when you need to maintain steadfast for quite a while. Hammerers are stubborn, so not important.

Another reason to go deep is to deny the other guy attacks. If you're 10 wide, you're getting 10 wide back at you (so 30) against other hordes. You can bring an enemy 20mm horde down to 21 guys swinging, or a 25mm horde down to 18. This can be pretty crucial if the combat is happening late in the game (so you might be able to run out the clock and save their points) or in a situation where you want to be sure help comes, or that the game is decided elsewhere before the nasties fighting your hammerers finish stomping them.

I run a unit of 29/30 pretty regularly. They're only going 10 wide about 25% of the time because a lot of things they face will kill enough off of the back to make that extra rank not worth it.

Ranking up to avoid losses if you're going against another horde is valid if you're tough enough to rely on your saves to get you through. Hammerers are not. They have to win via killing more than the other guys.

IMO hordes should never be taken in 30 unless they're tough as nails like Chaos Warriors. Things like Hammerers need to be in 40 for the point of getting too much killed off the back too soon, much as my last post said.

Clearly, I disagree with you. Hammerers aren't rock hard, but WS 5, T 4, 5+ armor save has some durability, ESPECIALLY because they're stubborn and usually aren't going to run away until every last one is dead.

I find that people who enjoy throwing out terms like "never" and "always" are approaching the game with far too little flexibility. If all you're doing in your gameplay is mashing hordes into each other, then yeah, bigger is going to better. But often I find the 120 points I could have spent to make them another 10 strong made another unit full on combat effective. 30 is enough if it means I can follow up with a bigger punch in the flank of the ongoing combat.

I will say, a horde of 40 anything is trouble, but 40 Hammerers is even more so. I understand the idea of having an extra rank for an advantage and safety, but I think that 30 against most enemies can do well.(Saurus, Chaos Warriors, Dark Elves, and some cavalry etc.)

Also that 120pts can be used for an Organ Gun. However I can also see how it would be good to take another full rank. I suppose it is a difficult decision.

Mountain-Breaker wrote:
However I can also see how it would be good to take another full rank. I suppose it is a difficult decision.

Totally agree. I think 40 makes for a really strong unit. I just don't think it is the only way to use them!

Yeah exactly. I think if there are 30 though, and they are in combat after the opposing unit has been shot up a bit, they will fare quite well, and there may be no need for 40.

Mountain-Breaker wrote:
Yeah exactly. I think if there are 30 though, and they are in combat after the opposing unit has been shot up a bit, they will fare quite well, and there may be no need for 40.

I'm just curious what's taking out 10 dwarves in melee before they swing.
Those Quarrellers go toe to toe with 8 iron guts and break even.

If they get to shoot at all, they come out well ahead.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Mountain-Breaker wrote:
Yeah exactly. I think if there are 30 though, and they are in combat after the opposing unit has been shot up a bit, they will fare quite well, and there may be no need for 40.

I'm just curious what's taking out 10 dwarves in melee before they swing.
Those Quarrellers go toe to toe with 8 iron guts and break even.

If they get to shoot at all, they come out well ahead.

-Matt

As a WoC player, almost everything I'm taking will probably kill at least 8 dwarfs on the turn they charge, if not more.