Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So an interesting rules question came up today that I would like to run by you.

Helical Targeting Array

IA Aeronautica

If the Contemptor-Mortis remains stationary in the Movement phase, it gains the Skyfire and Interceptor special rules for that turn

IAA 2nd Edition

...., its weapons count as having the AA Mount special rule for the rest of the player's turn

The AA Mount says that it can fire at normal BS at flyers.

So..... the issue is that people have been using the Interceptor rule in their opponents turn. When I first heard this dispute I was supporting this notion. 2 things changed my mind.

1. In the BRB it says turn means player turn unless specifically mentioned otherwise

2. If the aeronautica entry did not say Skyfire AND Interceptor the dread would not be able to fire at ground targets at normal BS (just like the Hydra).

#2 is really what did it for me because the rule seems very obvious until you bring that into light. It provides an explanation as to why it is incorporated in the rules because generally when we think of interceptor we think of it being only used in the opponents turn. However, in this case it is put in for another reason. That is my interpretation at this point.

Can we agree on this? Or is there somehow another side of the coin here?

Hmmm, it would appear that it does not have the Interceptor or Skyfire rule on your opponents turn.

Tell your friends who use them everybody because I really think it tones down their awesomeness considerably. LIke I said..... I was under the wrong impression as well until recently.

Valid rules from IA Aeronautica

If the Contemptor Mortis remain stationary in the Movement phase it gain Skyfire and Interceptor special rule for this turn

Rules from the IAA is not valid.

Read the FAQ. http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/v/vehicle6thupdates.pdf

Errata: When stationary gains the Skyfire and Interceptor special rule

A valid reason why forgeworld rules should be free and only available from their website, they screw and reprint them so much you leave a path of confusion. If its truly just for fluff gamers then it wont impact sales.

So because the errata does not mention the "for that turn" part does that mean they DO get interceptor during the opponents turn (ie game turn).

This is not so at all. Studio balances and fixes rules faster and faster than main company - GW, and writes them better. Units of the IA make the games more balanced.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Living Still wrote:
So because the errata does not mention the "for that turn" part does that mean they DO get interceptor during the opponents turn (ie game turn).

No, this is what means.

 Darog wrote:
This is not so at all. Studio balances and fixes rules faster and faster than main company - GW, and writes them better. Units of the IA make the games more balanced.

In $90 books, thats kind of my point, they invalidate and tweak so often that it gets rather pricey to stay current. If I could just get the latest and greatest rules freely available that would encourage the sales more. Forgeworld stands outside of GWs update system and is always behind for awhile anytime there is an edition or codex change. I'd still buy the books for the stories, campaigns and painting tutorials, I just think it makes more sense to keep something that you change so often out of books. And if something is broken you can fix it right away.

 Darog wrote:
Valid rules from IA Aeronautica

If the Contemptor Mortis remain stationary in the Movement phase it gain Skyfire and Interceptor special rule for this turn

Rules from the IAA is not valid.

Read the FAQ. http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/v/vehicle6thupdates.pdf

Errata: When stationary gains the Skyfire and Interceptor special rule

I disagree with you, for one, that document isn't Errata, it's a document designed to update vehicles for 6th edition, basically provide Hull Points and throw some new Special Rules to them, it's not to replace valid rules wording.

But even that is largely irrelevant in light of the fact, IA: Aeronautica was released after that document was.

 Living Still wrote:
So because the errata does not mention the "for that turn" part does that mean they DO get interceptor during the opponents turn (ie game turn).

In ANY turn where they remain stationary in the movement phase, they gain Interceptor and Skyfire.

So if you never move, you have both rules in each of your and your opponents turns

A terribly worded rule if I ever saw it.

In any movement phase seems to be a perfectly fine reading of that rule. So any opponents turn you can blast a flyer or model arriving from reserves but in your turn you need to remain stationary to hit flyers.

 Darog wrote:
Valid rules from IA Aeronautica

If the Contemptor Mortis remain stationary in the Movement phase it gain Skyfire and Interceptor special rule for this turn

Rules from the IAA is not valid.

Read the FAQ. http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/v/vehicle6thupdates.pdf

Errata: When stationary gains the Skyfire and Interceptor special rule

this is correct,
gotta keep up on the forgeworld FAQs as well,
they ahve FAQ'd it to have int/skyfire as in the newer book aeronautica

so even if they only last for one player turn,

fact is,

in the opponents turn,

if the mortis is stationary, in that movement phase as well

it gains interceptor/skyfire for that turn as well

Even if you argue that the rules imply player turn, he still gets skyfire/interceptor on your opponents turn, as he CERTAINLY didn't move in your opponent's move phase.

This has come up in our gaming group before.

Except that each player has their own movement phase. It is THE movement phase and they have skyfire/interceptor for THAT turn. Turn once again means player turn unless specifically said otherwise. It's not really possible to move in your opponent's movement phase so why make the distinction?

For what its worth Im actually pretty lost in this now and most of the arguments im bouncing off you guys are from local rules lawyers.... Playing devils advocate to see where this ends up. Im still very 50/50.

This is really very simple:

The 6th edition update was published BEFORE IA:Aeronautica, so IA:Aeronautica replaces it (along with the rules in IA:A2, of course).

The Contemptor gains Skyfire and Interceptor for the player turn. You get this so that you don't have to deal with a situation where you didn't move and get Skyfire but want to shoot at ground targets. You have both USRs so you can freely shoot at either ground or air targets if you didn't move. Blame GW for the pure idiocy of combining "may shoot at ground targets" and "may shoot at arriving reserves" into the same USR with no way to get either ability separately.

You do NOT get it during your opponent's turn since you only get the USRs if you remain stationary, and you can not remain stationary in your opponent's turn (since you do not take any action).

 Peregrine wrote:

You do NOT get it during your opponent's turn since you only get the USRs if you remain stationary, and you can not remain stationary in your opponent's turn (since you do not take any action).

The problem, though, is that not taking any action is a requirement for remaining stationary. You don't actively remain stationary, it's the state of being you exist in if you didn't move. You didn't move, thus you remain stationary and thus you gain Skyfire and Intercept.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The problem, though, is that not taking any action is a requirement for remaining stationary. You don't actively remain stationary, it's the state of being you exist in if you didn't move. You didn't move, thus you remain stationary and thus you gain Skyfire and Intercept.

"If the Contemptor remains stationary" means that it is taking an action (remaining stationary). You don't perform actions of any kind during your opponent's turn. If it said "did not move" (which is a passive state not an action) then you might have an argument, but that's not the case.

I do agree with Peregrine in regards to the reason for having interceptor/skyfire and that you only get it in your turn

 Peregrine wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The problem, though, is that not taking any action is a requirement for remaining stationary. You don't actively remain stationary, it's the state of being you exist in if you didn't move. You didn't move, thus you remain stationary and thus you gain Skyfire and Intercept.

"If the Contemptor remains stationary" means that it is taking an action (remaining stationary). You don't perform actions of any kind during your opponent's turn. If it said "did not move" (which is a passive state not an action) then you might have an argument, but that's not the case.

How is remaining taking an action? If I'm not jumping out a window, is that me taking an action? The act of remaining entails NOT taking action, remaining passive. Thus, you wouldn't have to do anything during your opponent's turn anyway. Besides, you DO perform actions during your opponent's turn: saves, Look Out Sir!, Leadership tests etc.

 Peregrine wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
The problem, though, is that not taking any action is a requirement for remaining stationary. You don't actively remain stationary, it's the state of being you exist in if you didn't move. You didn't move, thus you remain stationary and thus you gain Skyfire and Intercept.

"If the Contemptor remains stationary" means that it is taking an action (remaining stationary). You don't perform actions of any kind during your opponent's turn. If it said "did not move" (which is a passive state not an action) then you might have an argument, but that's not the case.

"remains stationary" is entirely passive; it is the absence of doing something (movement) causing you to remain stationary. "Remains falling" requires NO action on your part once you have jumped out of a high enough window.

RAW you get it in both turns if you do not take any action in that movement phase

did the dread move in the opponents turn?

no?

did it remain stationary?

yes


it now has sky/interceptor


despite trying to use tricks of the language, the dread has in fact remained stationary, weather due to lack of action, or for whatever reason, the fact remains it did not move that turn.

argueing about why it has remained stationary doesnt matter, even if you are right about it remaining stationary due to lack of action,

fact is it has remained stationary, which is the requirement to gain sky/interceptor

Question...

DID the Mortis move in the movement phase?

It does not say 'your movement phase' but instead 'the movement phase'

Seems like it would gain skyfire and interceptor...

yeah, the arguement over HOW it remained stationary is a non sequiter,

who cares HOW it remained stationary,

it DID, thats all that matters

I agree to disagree. The wording of the rule is complete gak though I will tell you that. Maybe I'll email FW about it and see what they say. Not that that is official, but I think it may take away some ambiguity especially if they side with the folks saying you get it for the "turn" no matter whose "turn" it is.

I'm honestly confused. I'm fine playing RAI instead of RAW, but I'm really not sure any more how they intended it to work.

One other thing to consider is that if we play it so that the movement phase = any movement phase then regardless if you move or not you will always have skyfire/interceptor in your opponents turn. That is pretty much the inverse and it sounds very wonky in my book. The more and more I think about this the more I think it is supposed to be in the owning player's turn only and that interceptor was included to prevent it being like the hydra (skyfire only).

RAW you are incorrect, as the rules are very clear that turn is player turn

 Living Still wrote:
One other thing to consider is that if we play it so that the movement phase = any movement phase then regardless if you move or not you will always have skyfire/interceptor in your opponents turn. That is pretty much the inverse and it sounds very wonky in my book.

I agree. I doubt that's what they intended.

The more and more I think about this the more I think it is supposed to be in the owning player's turn only and that interceptor was included to prevent it being like the hydra (skyfire only).

It is possible though, that they intended you to be able to intercept on enemy's turn if you didn't move on your own. That's how I assumed how it was until I read this thread. But obviously, that's not what the rules actually say.

The way I read that rule is similar to the Jink save granted by moving a bike. If you keep the Mortis stationary during your movement phase then it has Skyfire/Interceptor until your next Movement phase at which point you have the option to move or not again.

This would tie in with the Jink rule, if Movement phase is any players movement phase then no bike/jetbike/skimmer would have a jink save during your opponents turn as they have not moved that turn.

EDIT: Pulled up both IAA2 and the 6th Ed. FAQ, by the IAA2 wording it stops with your turn, the 6th Ed update looks like it was intended to update to the new USR without giving Interceptor during your opponents turn.

IIRC jink specifies that the skimmer moved in the previous turn i believe, dont have BRB infront of me though