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Hello Dakka,

I have been playing against a Chaos Space Marine player who feels like hes always one step ahead of me to the point where if he goes first I feel like I just have to sit there for an hour or so before I loose. I was hoping to get some input on what weakness I can use to topple him. I would post a list but he always has a different one every game.

He frequently uses: Thousond Sons, Berzerkers w/ Rhino DT, Forgefeind & Maulerfeind, Raptors w/ melta-guns , and Heldrake with the Baleflamer.

I play Tau in case if there is something army specific I'm missing.

Not sure I really see the problem.

Bring a Bastion or an ADL with the Icarus Lascannon and leave the HQ commander with a TA on the gun. That should make quick work of the Heldrake the turn it comes in.

Thousand Sons and Berzerkers are expensive and generally useless against Tau. Thousand Son bolters aren't going to do much damage to justify their points and Berzerkers are as effective as regular CSM against most Tau units.

Forgefiend and Maulerfiends are easily dealt with using missile pods and Railguns. I'd focus on Maulerfiends since they can move dangerously fast and start mowing down suits.

What does your list consist of?

Massed S7 shooting will handle everything. Direct melta (fusion?) Weapons against the fiends to kill them in a timely fashion.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Not sure I really see the problem.

Bring a Bastion or an ADL with the Icarus Lascannon and leave the HQ commander with a TA on the gun. That should make quick work of the Heldrake the turn it comes in.

Thousand Sons and Berzerkers are expensive and generally useless against Tau. Thousand Son bolters aren't going to do much damage to justify their points and Berzerkers are as effective as regular CSM against most Tau units.

Forgefiend and Maulerfiends are easily dealt with using missile pods and Railguns. I'd focus on Maulerfiends since they can move dangerously fast and start mowing down suits.

What does your list consist of?

My last list:

HQ
Shas'O: Plasma Rifle, Missilepod, Positional Relay, HW Multitracker, 2 Shield Drones

Shas'el: Burst Canon, Plasma Rilfe, Targeting Array, 2 Shield Drones,

Troops

12 Firewarriors: One Shas'ui
12 Firewarriors: One Shas'ui
12 Firewarriors: One Shas'ui

Elites

Two Crisis Suits both FK
Six Stealth Suits: All have Targeting array& Burst Canons, Shas'vre has two Shield Drones

Fast Attack

Six Pathfinders Devilfish had Disruption Pods

Heavy Support

Railhead with multitracker, disruption pods, and target lock

1 Broadside shas'vre multitracker and 2 shield drones

One Sniper Drone team

I used the Shas'el attached to the stealth team and deep striked close to his commander hoping to use it as a diversion and disrupt him from moving forward.

Pathfinders where used as an ineffective lure.

His berzerkers went after my firewarriors and cleared them out leaving my suits without a firewarrior screen and the thousond sons made short work of that. Later the heldrake killed my infiltration team and by the time it was my turn I had half of a fire team and my hammerhead / broadside team.

What list do you run? That might be the problem. I have never had a problem with Chaos.

ADL with quad or ic, forcing the flyer to snap so he cant use the bale works well.

also for the lulz you can also stick some photon and emps on your fire warriors for the lulz if the mauler fiends get close.

otherwise the tactics never actually change for tau.

sit back and focus fire one target at a time and then mad land grab near turn 4-5. works basically every time.

Ok, first off I'd get rid of the Positional relay, the burst cannons on suits, and the stealth suits. Positional Relay I don't even see the point of since you wouldn't have that much to deepstrike.

Elite suits are best run as twin-linked missile pod and flamers. Good accuracy, shot volume, and strength of hits for most of your issues to be dealt with.

Firewarriors I'd trim down to 9 man squads, without the Shas'ui upgrade. A Ld8 FW is not worth 20 points.

The idea of deepstriking the 'el with stealth suits to gun down the HQ seems kind of silly to be honest. That is a lot of points, A LOT OF POINTS. You're practically spoon feeding it to him to take them down, and you're not going to cause much damage output from the unit to justify their lose.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Ok, first off I'd get rid of the Positional relay, the burst cannons on suits, and the stealth suits. Positional Relay I don't even see the point of since you wouldn't have that much to deepstrike.

Elite suits are best run as twin-linked missile pod and flamers. Good accuracy, shot volume, and strength of hits for most of your issues to be dealt with.

Firewarriors I'd trim down to 9 man squads, without the Shas'ui upgrade. A Ld8 FW is not worth 20 points.

The idea of deepstriking the 'el with stealth suits to gun down the HQ seems kind of silly to be honest. That is a lot of points, A LOT OF POINTS. You're practically spoon feeding it to him to take them down, and you're not going to cause much damage output from the unit to justify their lose.

That particular game his commander was guarded my a cultist screen so I figured Id use mass volume of shots to get rid of them and the warlord.

What is the idea behind a 9 person fire team?

You all make it sound so easy.

What gun emplacement ever exists after turn 2? Like he said, he has problems going second. Turn 1 light it up with 4 autocannons from havoks or obliterators or both. It only takes 6 wounds to kill it (if not using AP3 guns). And Chaos has easy access to S7 or better guns.

Let me guess, his raptors DS in and blow up any railguns you might have, regardless of what platform they are on? Now, suddenly those Fiends and Heldrakes have very little to worry about.

Heldrakes roast the suits with their fast movement and torrent flamers. There is no hiding. Zerkers wreck any vehicles and then easily chew up what ever is inside. As such, the cover save that so many Tau players hold onto is useless. As for the Thousand Sons - yeah, those guys are probably wasted points against Tau. But hey, its still more AP3 bolters and that pretty much is all you need against Tau, 30" walk and shoot from 10 guys will remove the straggler from a picked on unit of suits.

Sadly at this point in the game, Tau suck, and have sucked for a long time. The boons we got from 6th is nothing special because everybody got them. There was nothing that showed up that seemed to help specifically Tau vs what other people might bring to the table. You have an uphill fight against you, its sad but true. And I feel your pain. I've got 2000 points of Tau myself that have done very little the last few years.


Now that I've seen your list, its easy to see why your having trouble. Your playing a army with either the models you have or went for some sort of theme. As such its is very much less than optimal or even focused. I never run "Net" lists myself because I do not wish to field 9 crisis suits and if your choosing not to do so either, then more power to you, but you will need to recognize that it will have some struggles. On the whole, your list has far too much S5 shooting and not nearly enough S7-10. This is where Tau can really up their game. You need the bigger guns to play competitively. Volume of fire works, it really does, don't let anyone say otherwise. If you can force enough saves and you can kill anything eventually over time. However, this is a timed game (in turns) and as such you may not have the time to get the job done.

Your list only has 3 scoring units and those are exposed from the get go, and sadly (again) the Fire warrior is probably the worst troop unit in the game at actually doing its job. You need to give those guys some protection. Be it devilfish, ADL, Bastion, or even Fortress. But out in the open, they are actually more of a liability than asset to the Tau army.

 Desubot wrote:
ADL with quad or ic, forcing the flyer to snap so he cant use the bale works well.

Can't make a heldrake snapfire they have 5++ (unless you score a penetrating hit, and end in a 1-3 result and then the heldrake rolls a 1 for his daemonic possession)

R3YNO wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Not sure I really see the problem.

Bring a Bastion or an ADL with the Icarus Lascannon and leave the HQ commander with a TA on the gun. That should make quick work of the Heldrake the turn it comes in.

Thousand Sons and Berzerkers are expensive and generally useless against Tau. Thousand Son bolters aren't going to do much damage to justify their points and Berzerkers are as effective as regular CSM against most Tau units.

Forgefiend and Maulerfiends are easily dealt with using missile pods and Railguns. I'd focus on Maulerfiends since they can move dangerously fast and start mowing down suits.

What does your list consist of?

My last list:

HQ
Shas'O: Plasma Rifle, Missilepod, Positional Relay, HW Multitracker, 2 Shield Drones
Drop to a Shas'o, save 25pts. Also the Pos.Relay - 15pts so a single unit a turn can come in on a 2+, completely not worth it. Replace with Target lock, for 30pts less, you have an as effective shooty commander.

Shas'el: Burst Canon, Plasma Rilfe, Targeting Array, 2 Shield Drones,
This is fine, but I wouldn't really bother till you have sets of 3 suits in troops. Cheaper means more stuff.
Troops

12 Firewarriors: One Shas'ui
12 Firewarriors: One Shas'ui
12 Firewarriors: One Shas'ui
This is fine, though personally, I would run it as 6x6 instead of 3x12
You get to shoot at more targets, and when he hits one with a CC nasty, it takes down less.

Elites
Two Crisis Suits both FK
Fine. But if you drop the Shas'o to a Shas'el, and drop the existing Shas'el, you should easily be able to afford 2 more suits.
Six Stealth Suits: All have Target Lock & Burst Canons, Shas'vre has two Shield Drones
You're spending 30pts to allow the 6 suits to shoot at 6 targets... why?
Also, Shield Drones are a waste outside of CC with Stealth + Shrouded giving them a 4+ cover out in the open.
if you made it 3 suits with 2 gun drones each, you have a very resilient speedbump unit that's just shooty enough to be a threat and in the enemies face, while not being so expensive as to take away from the rest of the army.
Alternatively, take less Battlesuits, and 2 squads of 3+6 Stealth Suits.

Fast Attack

Six Pathfinders Devilfish had Disruption Pods
I've stopped using pathfinders, mostly because they died so damn fast and never did anything useful, but whack them behind an Aegis, or on top of a Bastion and go to town.

Heavy Support

Railhead with multitracker, disruption pods, and targeting array
This is fine, though you must take, Burst Cannons and it has a targetting array built in anyway so you can't make it BS5

1 Broadside multitracker and 2 shield drones
Unless this has been made a team leader / shas'vre, how does it have a Multitracker AND Shield drones?
If it isn't - you can't have both, drop the multitracker.
If it is. Drop the Multitracker, it'll save you 10-15pts, and be exactly as effective.

One Sniper Drone team
Love Sniper teams. If you take an Aegis or Bastion, the Drone Spotter is just about the best thing in the Tau army to man the gun emplacement, what with the drones being able to shoot at different targets, and him being BS4 anyway.

I used the Shas'el attached to the stealth team and deep striked close to his commander hoping to use it as a diversion and disrupt him from moving forward.

Pathfinders where used as an ineffective lure.

His berzerkers went after my firewarriors and cleared them out leaving my suits without a firewarrior screen and the thousond sons made short work of that. Later the heldrake killed my infiltration team and by the time it was my turn I had half of a fire team and my hammerhead / broadside team.

I'massuming this is 1500pts
I would very much take an Aegis Defence Line or Bastion with a Quadgun or Icarus Lascannon, manned by the spotter, with the squad enjoying its 2+ cover save.
Switching to 6x6 FW, without Shas'ui's, an alternate Stealth Suit team, and the HQ changes, even with more suits, you should be able to afford the Aegis, potentially dropping a few firewarriors for a Bastion.
You could also consider a second Broadside with Drones aswell / instead.
I would deepstrike nothing.

My current Take-All-Comers Tau list is
1 Shas'el Deathrain w/ Iridium Armour, 2 Shield Drones
1 Deathrain
2x2 Fireknives
6x6 Firewarriors
2x Hammerhead w/ Railgun, D.Pods, Burst Cannons, BSF and MultiTracker
3x Broadside w/ 6 Shield Drones.
And that list did universally well in the opening months of 6th ed.

But when I come back to my Tau, I will be taking an Aegis (or 2 at 2k), 6x6 Firewarriors, and experimenting with 1-3 units of Sniper Drones, with 1-2 Railheads, and Stealth Teams. (Probably 2x3 + my Battlesuit HQ with 2 suits).

 Ovion wrote:

R3YNO wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Not sure I really see the problem.

Bring a Bastion or an ADL with the Icarus Lascannon and leave the HQ commander with a TA on the gun. That should make quick work of the Heldrake the turn it comes in.

Thousand Sons and Berzerkers are expensive and generally useless against Tau. Thousand Son bolters aren't going to do much damage to justify their points and Berzerkers are as effective as regular CSM against most Tau units.

Forgefiend and Maulerfiends are easily dealt with using missile pods and Railguns. I'd focus on Maulerfiends since they can move dangerously fast and start mowing down suits.

What does your list consist of?

My last list:

HQ
Shas'O: Plasma Rifle, Missilepod, Positional Relay, HW Multitracker, 2 Shield Drones
Drop to a Shas'o, save 25pts. Also the Pos.Relay - 15pts so a single unit a turn can come in on a 2+, completely not worth it. Replace with Target lock, for 30pts less, you have an as effective shooty commander.

Shas'el: Burst Canon, Plasma Rilfe, Targeting Array, 2 Shield Drones,
This is fine, but I wouldn't really bother till you have sets of 3 suits in troops. Cheaper means more stuff.
Troops

12 Firewarriors: One Shas'ui
12 Firewarriors: One Shas'ui
12 Firewarriors: One Shas'ui
This is fine, though personally, I would run it as 6x6 instead of 3x12
You get to shoot at more targets, and when he hits one with a CC nasty, it takes down less.

Elites
Two Crisis Suits both FK
Fine. But if you drop the Shas'o to a Shas'el, and drop the existing Shas'el, you should easily be able to afford 2 more suits.
Six Stealth Suits: All have Target Lock & Burst Canons, Shas'vre has two Shield Drones
You're spending 30pts to allow the 6 suits to shoot at 6 targets... why?
Also, Shield Drones are a waste outside of CC with Stealth + Shrouded giving them a 4+ cover out in the open.
if you made it 3 suits with 2 gun drones each, you have a very resilient speedbump unit that's just shooty enough to be a threat and in the enemies face, while not being so expensive as to take away from the rest of the army.
Alternatively, take less Battlesuits, and 2 squads of 3+6 Stealth Suits.

Fast Attack

Six Pathfinders Devilfish had Disruption Pods
I've stopped using pathfinders, mostly because they died so damn fast and never did anything useful, but whack them behind an Aegis, or on top of a Bastion and go to town.

Heavy Support

Railhead with multitracker, disruption pods, and targeting array
This is fine, though you must take, Burst Cannons and it has a targetting array built in anyway so you can't make it BS5

1 Broadside multitracker and 2 shield drones
Unless this has been made a team leader / shas'vre, how does it have a Multitracker AND Shield drones?
If it isn't - you can't have both, drop the multitracker.
If it is. Drop the Multitracker, it'll save you 10-15pts, and be exactly as effective.

One Sniper Drone team
Love Sniper teams. If you take an Aegis or Bastion, the Drone Spotter is just about the best thing in the Tau army to man the gun emplacement, what with the drones being able to shoot at different targets, and him being BS4 anyway.

I used the Shas'el attached to the stealth team and deep striked close to his commander hoping to use it as a diversion and disrupt him from moving forward.

Pathfinders where used as an ineffective lure.

His berzerkers went after my firewarriors and cleared them out leaving my suits without a firewarrior screen and the thousond sons made short work of that. Later the heldrake killed my infiltration team and by the time it was my turn I had half of a fire team and my hammerhead / broadside team.

I'massuming this is 1500pts
I would very much take an Aegis Defence Line or Bastion with a Quadgun or Icarus Lascannon, manned by the spotter, with the squad enjoying its 2+ cover save.
Switching to 6x6 FW, without Shas'ui's, an alternate Stealth Suit team, and the HQ changes, even with more suits, you should be able to afford the Aegis, potentially dropping a few firewarriors for a Bastion.
You could also consider a second Broadside with Drones aswell / instead.
I would deepstrike nothing.

My current Take-All-Comers Tau list is
1 Shas'el Deathrain w/ Iridium Armour, 2 Shield Drones
1 Deathrain
2x2 Fireknives
6x6 Firewarriors
2x Hammerhead w/ Railgun, D.Pods, Burst Cannons, BSF and MultiTracker
3x Broadside w/ 6 Shield Drones.
And that list did universally well in the opening months of 6th ed.

But when I come back to my Tau, I will be taking an Aegis (or 2 at 2k), 6x6 Firewarriors, and experimenting with 1-3 units of Sniper Drones, with 1-2 Railheads, and Stealth Teams. (Probably 2x3 + my Battlesuit HQ with 2 suits).

I got my targetlock and array mixed up with my hammerhead and stealth team. The stealth team had arrays so they had bs4 rather than 3 and the hammerhead already had array(My bad). Is that a good idea having them with arrays?
Ill have to try the 6x6 config of fire warriors next game. I have a bastion but I don't usually have the points to use it. I had plans for another broadside but I keep forgetting to order the kit from my local store.

Re Jayden63: You nailed that right on, He loves to use his raptors like that.

10pts per makes them 40pts per, just for the +1BS.
Personally, I find the extra (twin linked) shot, and ablative wound as more worth it. The second drone is yet another wound and shot.
Yes, it makes each suit 50pts, but that's 3 wounds, 5 Str5 shots, with a 3+ save, a 4+ cover in the open, and a 2+ cover or behind any kind of terrain, that can infiltrate, can move 6", then a further 2D6" in the Assault phase.

It's a harassment unit and speedbump for 150-310pts, as well as a not entirely unreasonable flyer deterrent. (Not the best, but 9+6TL Str5 shots (30 with the 6man squad) isn't that bad against flyers), and whack it in the middle, and that's an 18" bubble to avoid.


To add - basically, you want to force where he moves.
Deploy your Stealth Team(s) as close to the center, as possible, either dead center, or central l/r to create a deterrent bubble within the threat range of the stealth teams, where he'll prefer to not place his units, or flyer (ok, it's AV12 at the front and sides, but it's still AV10 at the rear! ).
Yes the Heldrake ignores cover, but you do at least have ablative wounds here, and what's left is an annoyance unit.
Put the gun emplacement either covering the other half of the board to the suits, or centrally, reinforcing that bubble.
The Firewarriors, Hammerhead and Broadside(s) all want to be deployed roughly at the limit of their firing range, and preferably, just outside of theirs (so 31"-36" for Firewarriors)

Turn 1, target the rhino(s) with the Broadsides and/or Firewarriors and/or Stealth Suits - force the Berserkers
Focus the Hammerheads Large Blast against the biggest infantry threat (T.Sons if 'zerkers aren't going to be in charge range next turn, zerkers if they are, raptors if they'regoing to be in melta / assault range.)
Once the rhinos are down, you can focus the Str5 on the infantry.
The Quadgun/Lascannon and the Snipers can pick targets of opportunity, or shoot at the Heldrake when it's on the field.

The most important thing is placement and Target Priority.
Pick the biggest, closest threat, if there's multiple threats about the same level and distance, focus on the one then simply work through them one at a time till it's dead.
but from what I see, it'll go roughly Heldrake > Close Raptors > Rhinos / Close Zerkers > T.Sons > Distant Zerkers / Distant Raptors