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I have been re-reading the daemon banner rules and discussing with friends.

From everything we have read the banner does not have to start on the table to be used as a locator for further deep striking uints.

Agree/disagree/mistake?

Nevermind, lack of power means lack of up to date rules.

There is some debate as to whether the general rulebook rule stating you cannot use any start of turn abilities when arriving from reserve covers this. Page 125

I'd say page 125 is fairly clear cut.

What makes an Icon a start of turn ability?

You are trying to use an ability at the start of the turn, because that is when DS from reserves occurs.

As always though, the specific codex overrules the BRB. The icon is VERY specific in its wording and no where does it say that 'if this icon is on the table at the beginning of your turn'.

Since there is a conflict, the Codex wins out....

This has been discussed at length at my FLGS and the consensus is that the RAI (and our understanding of the RAW) is that it is meant for a group of same-aligned daemons to drop in together.

In all accounts - it is a HORRIBLE thing to do. You dont get to move or assault...so all their daemons are bunched in one nice little group.....can you say plate-fodder...

Sorry, can you point out the SPECIFIC wording that says it can be used at the start of the turn, even when arriving from reserve?

"Specific" would be "may be used even when arriving from reserves". That language is absent.

I have to agree with Nos on this one.
If there is no conflict then the general restrictions apply.

The open question is whether the icon is considered "an abilit(y) or special rule that must be used at the start of the turn", for the purposes of the restriction in the Reserve rules.

Unlike many other special rules, it doesn't explicitly state that it is used at the start of the turn. OTOH, by the nature of the Reserve rules, all Reserve rolls and moves onto the table DO happen at the start of the turn.

I could really see it being ruled either way.

Everyone be sure to email gamefaqs@gwplc.com to ask them to clarify!

One of the main reasons that I would say that the banners can be chained, or used in the same turn they come out, is because in every other instance there is a direct reference to that not working in the same turn.

If you look at the warlord traits it specifically lists "Warp Beacon" as something that can only be used if the model is on the table before the release of any reserves. The omission of it in the rules for the icons certainly lends credence to the thought that they do operate in the proposed manner and not like the "Warp Beacon" trait.

There is a direct reference in the main rulebook.

Note that there is a difference between a Reserve Roll (p124, top right) and arriving from reserve (paragraph 5 of right column).

My unit with an Icon arrives on the table (through whatever means). Then another unit arrives on the table. These two arrivals are not simultaneous (p124 right column paragraph 5). They happen one at a time, in a sequence determined by the controlling player.

The Icon says, "if the first model from a friendly unit arriving by DS is placed within 6"..." (p64). Since the Icon is on the table, and the next unit can be placed within 6", I see no reason why the Icon cannot be used to reduce scatter.

I think Elric is right. The other Deep Strike scatter reducing mechanics I can think of specify when they have to be on the table at the beginning of the turn. (Like locator beacons or teleport homers.) If the daemon banner doesn't say that, then it makes perfect sense to me that it doesn't need to be. I can easily see it being intended to be used that way, although I also wouldn't be terribly shocked to see it FAQ'ed to be in line with locator beacons.

The fact they are not simultaneous isn't why I object to it's use. It's the general restriction on these sorts of rules having effect when the model is in reserves at the start of the turn.

I drop 2 drop pods with locator beacons and then my entire DWA army. I don't get to drop them down within 6" of the drop pods and ignore scatter because the beacons weren't on the board.

Anything that occurs before voluntary movement (which is the first action that is allowed in the first phase of the game) is still at the beginning of the turn. Whether it is simultaneous or sequential makes no difference.

 Ghaz wrote:
Anything that occurs before voluntary movement (which is the first action that is allowed in the first phase of the game) is still at the beginning of the turn. Whether it is simultaneous or sequential makes no difference.

Yes, but pg 125 only covers: 'abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn'.

So the question remains, is the Icon's ability actually one that must be used at the start of a turn? Obviously not, because it is possible to summon new units of Daemons later in a turn, for example the Warp Storm 'Summoned' result or the Portalglyph...an Icon certainly works in those cases, so I do not think there is any evidence that this ia an ability or special rule that must be used at the start of the turn.

Therefore, page 125 does not prevent an Icon from being used on the same turn it arrives to benefit other units that Deep Strike after it.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
The fact they are not simultaneous isn't why I object to it's use. It's the general restriction on these sorts of rules having effect when the model is in reserves at the start of the turn.

I drop 2 drop pods with locator beacons and then my entire DWA army. I don't get to drop them down within 6" of the drop pods and ignore scatter because the beacons weren't on the board.

All other similar rules and pieces of wargear specifically say that they cannot be used on the turn the model arrives from reserves.

This new Icon is the only similar piece of kit that doesn't have that caveat.

 Ghaz wrote:
Anything that occurs before voluntary movement (which is the first action that is allowed in the first phase of the game) is still at the beginning of the turn. Whether it is simultaneous or sequential makes no difference.

It absolutely makes a difference.

If I have 2 units deep striking in. I place the first unit down and it lands wherever. Now, I deepstrike the second unit it and it scatters on top of this first unit. What happens?

According to you, this is simultaneous? So, do they both mishap since they are arriving at the same time and therefore mishapping off of each other? I would say no. The 2nd unit mishaps because it has landed on top of the 1st. So, there is a precedent for sequences happening during this pre-movement phase.

Green - you have missed his point. He has not said they ARE simulatneous (so I suggest you retract that as it is a falsehood), just that "start of the turn" is not a single instant - it has to accomodate a lot of events.

 yakface wrote:
Yes, but pg 125 only covers: 'abilities or special rules that must be used at the start of the turn'.

So the question remains, is the Icon's ability actually one that must be used at the start of a turn? Obviously not, because it is possible to summon new units of Daemons later in a turn, for example the Warp Storm 'Summoned' result or the Portalglyph...an Icon certainly works in those cases, so I do not think there is any evidence that this ia an ability or special rule that must be used at the start of the turn.

Therefore, page 125 does not prevent an Icon from being used on the same turn it arrives to benefit other units that Deep Strike after it.

If you want to bring in deep strikers in the same turn as the Icon, then yes you must use it at the start of the turn. Also note that page 125 does not prohibit its use later in the turn as you seem to be implying. "Must" does not equal "Can only be".

 yakface wrote:

All other similar rules and pieces of wargear specifically say that they cannot be used on the turn the model arrives from reserves.

This new Icon is the only similar piece of kit that doesn't have that caveat.

It is also the first one that doesn't need it because the aforementioned rule on page 125 already covers the situation.

As Nos said there are usually 5 things to do at the start of a given turn in my army and all of them are defined as being at the start of the turn.

As the player who's turn it is you can decide what order these events happen in but you are still in the "start of the turn" portion of your turn.

 Ghaz wrote:

 yakface wrote:

All other similar rules and pieces of wargear specifically say that they cannot be used on the turn the model arrives from reserves.

This new Icon is the only similar piece of kit that doesn't have that caveat.

It is also the first one that doesn't need it because the aforementioned rule on page 125 already covers the situation.

Not true. The Dark Angels' Teleport Homer and Locator Beacons both have the 'must have been on the table at the start of the turn' verbage. The fact that this 6th Ed. Codex has that wording and the Daemons' doesn't lends credence to the fact that they left it out on purpose.

And yet again, that doesn't change the fact that its already covered in the main rulebook. Just because its in the Dark Angels codex could be anything from a copy and paste from an old codex to the author not realizing the situation was already covered in the core rules.

Or they were giving you a reminder, as has happened in the past with rules (most notably reminding you about the modified toughness froma bike not affecting ID T value, 4th and 5th edition)

It depends on how you parse "must"; whether you define it as "it can only be used at the start of the turn" must or "if you want to use it at a point in time that coincides with the start of the turn" must

nosferatu1001 wrote:Green - you have missed his point. He has not said they ARE simulatneous (so I suggest you retract that as it is a falsehood), just that "start of the turn" is not a single instant - it has to accomodate a lot of events.

Green is Best! wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:
Anything that occurs before voluntary movement (which is the first action that is allowed in the first phase of the game) is still at the beginning of the turn. Whether it is simultaneous or sequential makes no difference.

It absolutely makes a difference.

If I have 2 units deep striking in. I place the first unit down and it lands wherever. Now, I deepstrike the second unit it and it scatters on top of this first unit. What happens?

According to you, this is simultaneous? So, do they both mishap since they are arriving at the same time and therefore mishapping off of each other? I would say no. The 2nd unit mishaps because it has landed on top of the 1st. So, there is a precedent for sequences happening during this pre-movement phase.

Nos, the bolded statement is what Green was addressing. Simultaneous or not does make a difference.
Meaning Deep Strikes must be sequential.

Again, that isnt what I believe Ghaz was trying to say - he was trying to say that the "start of turn" isnt a single instant, so there is no requirement for all events to be simultaneous in order for them to fit into the "start of turn"

So DS being sequential does not mean you have, once the first unit has finished their DS move, passed the start of turn phase.

Simultaneous or not does not make a difference or are you stating that if you have multiple actions that you must do at the start of the turn you can only do one of those actions?

Again, "start of the turn" is not a single point in time, instead it is a catch all for any actions that are required by the rules to be done before voluntary movement. Whether those actions are simultaneous or sequential does not move them to some undefined phase between the start of the turn and the Movement Phase.