US Politics: 2017 Edition

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**Frazzled**

feeder wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
They are no more citizens of the US then they are of Canada.

Except for all intents and purposes they are. Why are you so hung up on a technicality?

Except for all intents and purposes they are citizens of another country. They have no more relationship to the US then they do Canada. After all, if a homeless person breaks into your house, they don't then own your house.*

*ok maybe in California.

**Easy E**

Breotan wrote:
d-usa wrote:
I've seen the argument that Trump is already a lame duck president, having burned his political capital by daring the GOP to vote against the AHCA. He has signed no legislation worth mentioning, has nothing in the works, a White House full of infighting, and a giant cloud over his head with Russia.

I found an article about tax cuts that makes similar points.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_TAX_OVERHAUL_THEN_AND_NOW?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2017-03-28-03-50-11

Essentially the article details why President Trump is unable to affect change the way President Reagan did. It shows just how much work President Trump has ahead of him if he wants to actually accomplish anything.

We're only two months into his Presidency but I agree with you that unless something changes, he will very likely be a one-term President.

As Minnesota once had Jesse Ventura for Governor, the United States has now had Donald Trump as President.

There is a reason no "Outsider" candidate has won a major election in Minnesota since.

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

CptJake wrote:
I know my family and the families of some close buddies have been impacted quite a bit more by Group A than group B. In fact, I have a hard time thinking of anyone I know who would claim to have been impacted by Group B, but know several impacted by Group A.

Are you black? Do you have a lot of black friends?
I don't know the answers but you didn't mention them and they seem very very relevant in this context though.

**Breotan**

skyth wrote:
Other people, including you, have been using dishonest arguments to try to conflate them.

Other people, including people on all sides of this issue, simply wish to discuss broader aspects of illegal immigration/benefits. Just because we've moved passed what you want to talk about doesn't make it dishonest.

**skyth**

Breotan wrote:
skyth wrote:
Other people, including you, have been using dishonest arguments to try to conflate them.

Other people, including people on all sides of this issue, simply wish to discuss broader aspects of illegal immigration/benefits. Just because we've moved passed what you want to talk about doesn't make it dishonest.

It is in the context that you used it.

**Co'tor Shas**

I doubt there is any way that Trump won't sign this, even is a massive gak-storm is kicked up, he doesn't give a gak. But I guess the party of corporations over people will continue at it's current direction.
https://www.cnet.com/news/house-votes-to-repeal-internet-privacy-rules-broadband-fcc/

**feeder**

Frazzled wrote:
feeder wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
They are no more citizens of the US then they are of Canada.

Except for all intents and purposes they are. Why are you so hung up on a technicality?

Except for all intents and purposes they are citizens of another country. They have no more relationship to the US then they do Canada. After all, if a homeless person breaks into your house, they don't then own your house.*

*ok maybe in California.

No Frazz, they are technically citizens of another country. But in most ways that count, they are American. Why are you so hung up on a technicality?

**d-usa**

Co'tor Shas wrote:
I doubt there is any way that Trump won't sign this, even is a massive gak-storm is kicked up, he doesn't give a gak. But I guess the party of corporations over people will continue at it's current direction.
https://www.cnet.com/news/house-votes-to-repeal-internet-privacy-rules-broadband-fcc/

Hope some news buy and publish the browsing histories of our legislators.

**Ahtman**

Well since it has come up might as well share the article: Study Says White Extremists Have Killed More Americans in the U.S. Than Jihadists Since 9/11.

Since 9/11, white right-wing terrorists have killed almost twice as many Americans in homegrown attacks than radical Islamists have, according to research by the New America Foundation.

In their June study, the foundation decided to examine groups "engaged in violent extremist activity" and found that white extremists were by far the most dangerous. They pointed to the recent Emanuel AME Church shooting in Charleston, S.C., and the 2012 attack on a Sikh temple in Wisconsin, as well as many lesser-known attacks on Jewish institutions and on police. They found that 48 people were killed by white terrorists, while 26 were killed by radical Islamists, since Sept. 11.

The study also found that the criminal justice system judged jihadists more harshly than their non-Muslim counterparts, indicting them more frequently than non-jihadists and handing down longer sentences.

See a full breakdown of the numbers here.

Still going through it but but when you look at the chart provided it shows that Jihadists have higher body counts per attack but that right wing extremists are more frequent in their attacks, just that they tend to have fewer victims when they do. Even within the study it shows higher numbers (Jihadists 95, Right Wing 51, Left Wing 5). Neither are really good news, but it does seem to say Jihadists are are more likely to kill than right wing extremists but both are trying. Now I may have to read the study all the way to try and figure out why they got the headline they did, and you know I hate reading.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

d-usa wrote:
Hope some news buy and publish the browsing histories of our legislators.

They are probably exempt from this.

**Co'tor Shas**

d-usa wrote:
Co'tor Shas wrote:
I doubt there is any way that Trump won't sign this, even is a massive gak-storm is kicked up, he doesn't give a gak. But I guess the party of corporations over people will continue at it's current direction.
https://www.cnet.com/news/house-votes-to-repeal-internet-privacy-rules-broadband-fcc/

Hope some news buy and publish the browsing histories of our legislators.

I'm sure certain posters will have a completely rational and totally not partisan reason for why this is a good thing. Just like the BLM rule that made it so people effected by any land trade would have a chance to voice concerns.

**Tannhauser42**

d-usa wrote:
Co'tor Shas wrote:
I doubt there is any way that Trump won't sign this, even is a massive gak-storm is kicked up, he doesn't give a gak. But I guess the party of corporations over people will continue at it's current direction.
https://www.cnet.com/news/house-votes-to-repeal-internet-privacy-rules-broadband-fcc/

Hope some news buy and publish the browsing histories of our legislators.

IIRC, Larry Flynt (of Hustler), has a fund set up for the express purpose of paying for proof of so-called "family values" politicians not following those values so that he can publish that stuff publicly. I bet he wouldn't mind forking over some cash to see the browsing histories of the GOP.

**Ensis Ferrae**

Ahtman wrote:
Now I may have to read the study all the way to try and figure out why they got the headline they did, and you know I hate reading.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

d-usa wrote:
Hope some news buy and publish the browsing histories of our legislators.

They are probably exempt from this.

I hovered over a few of the Jihadist dots on the chart, and some of the perps were white dudes, which I think lumped in with the combined whiteness of the other types of terrorist attacks means the headline is still true. The headline simply reads white extremists, which is not the same as right wing, or jihadi, or anarchist or any other label.

And I would have to agree with you that somehow congressmen would get themselves written protections in a bill like that.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tannhauser42 wrote:
d-usa wrote:
Co'tor Shas wrote:
I doubt there is any way that Trump won't sign this, even is a massive gak-storm is kicked up, he doesn't give a gak. But I guess the party of corporations over people will continue at it's current direction.
https://www.cnet.com/news/house-votes-to-repeal-internet-privacy-rules-broadband-fcc/

Hope some news buy and publish the browsing histories of our legislators.

IIRC, Larry Flynt (of Hustler), has a fund set up for the express purpose of paying for proof of so-called "family values" politicians not following those values so that he can publish that stuff publicly. I bet he wouldn't mind forking over some cash to see the browsing histories of the GOP.

Lol, if true, then either the "family values" crowd gets caught way too easily in airports, and he can't pay for news already out there, or it's working wonders and he's the one been helping release those stories.

**Do_I_Not_Like_That**

As always, here's a quick update for American dakka members on the UK situation. It'll save you from wading through dozens of pages.

Article 50 is on. The official withdrawal letter has been signed by the Prime Minister and will be handed to Donald Tusk, President of the European Commission. at 12:30pm GMT today.

Prime Minister May is calling for Britain to unite as one and get behind her ahead of the crucial Brexit talks which will probably begin in the month of May or June...

BUT

Northern Ireland has no government, as the power sharing agreement collapsed. There is talk of unification with the Republic of Ireland...

and the Scottish Parliament (our 'state legislature') just voted for another independence referendum by 69 votes to 59.

So, not quite a United Kingdom

But Donald Trump promised us a good trade deal, so we look forward to a bright new dawn with our American friends and allies under the visionary leadership of President Trump

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Article 50 is on. The official withdrawal letter has been signed by the Prime Minister and will be handed to Donald Tusk, President of the European Commission. at 12:30pm GMT today.
[…]
Northern Ireland has no government, as the power sharing agreement collapsed. There is talk of unification with the Republic of Ireland...

and the Scottish Parliament (our 'state legislature') just voted for another independence referendum by 69 votes to 59.

Secession! Secession everywhere!
Sedition! Sedition everywhere!

Donald Trump, good trade deal

.

**r_squared**

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
As always, here's a quick update for American dakka members on the UK situation. It'll save you from wading through dozens of pages.

Article 50 is on. The official withdrawal letter has been signed by the Prime Minister and will be handed to Donald Tusk, President of the European Commission. at 12:30pm GMT today.

Prime Minister May is calling for Britain to unite as one and get behind her ahead of the crucial Brexit talks which will probably begin in the month of May or June...

BUT

Northern Ireland has no government, as the power sharing agreement collapsed. There is talk of unification with the Republic of Ireland...

and the Scottish Parliament (our 'state legislature') just voted for another independence referendum by 69 votes to 59.

So, not quite a United Kingdom

But Donald Trump promised us a good trade deal, so we look forward to a bright new dawn with our American friends and allies under the visionary leadership of President Trump

If it wasn't such a total cluster-feth I'd find it funny, but I don't. Not even the tiniest bit.

**Co'tor Shas**

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/28/arctic-researcher-donald-trump-deleting-my-citations

As an Arctic researcher, I’m used to gaps in data. Just over 1% of US Arctic waters have been surveyed to modern standards. In truth, some of the maps we use today haven’t been updated since the second world war. Navigating uncharted waters can prove difficult, but it comes with the territory of working in such a remote part of the world.

Over the past two months though, I’ve been navigating a different type of uncharted territory: the deleting of what little data we have by the Trump administration.

At first, the distress flare of lost data came as a surge of defunct links on 21 January. The US National Strategy for the Arctic, the Implementation Plan for the Strategy, and the report on our progress all gone within a matter of minutes. As I watched more and more links turned red, I frantically combed the internet for archived versions of our country’s most important polar policies.

I had no idea then that this disappearing act had just begun.

Since January, the surge has transformed into a slow, incessant march of deleting datasets, webpages and policies about the Arctic. I now come to expect a weekly email request to replace invalid citations, hoping that someone had the foresight to download statistics about Arctic permafrost thaw or renewable energy in advance of the purge.

In the waning days of 2016 we were warned: save the data. Back up the climate measurements. Archive the maps of America’s worst polluters. Document the education portals that teach students about backyard ecosystems.

Anticipating a massive overhaul by the new administration, scientists around the world sounded the alarm to copy as many files off of government sites before they were altered or removed. As the inauguration neared, hundreds of guerrilla archivists took up the call. From Philadelphia to Toronto, hackers raced against the clock to protect crucial datasets before they disappeared. Volunteers tried tirelessly to save what they could, but the federal government is a massive warehouse of information. Some data was bound to get left behind.

All in all, emails about defunct links of sites that weren’t saved are annoying, but harmless. Finding archived materials to replace them add maybe 20 minutes of internet searches to my day – and a bit of anger at the state of the country.

The consequences of vanishing citations, however, pose a far more serious consequence than website updates. Each defunct page is an effort by the Trump administration to deliberately undermine our ability to make good policy decisions by limiting access to scientific evidence.

We’ve seen this type of data strangling before.

Just three years ago, Arctic researchers witnessed another world leader remove thousands of scientific documents from the public domain. In 2014, then Canadian prime minister Stephen Harper closed 11 department of fisheries and oceans regional libraries, including the only Arctic center. Hundreds of reports and studies containing well over a century of research were destroyed in that process – a historic loss from which we still have not recovered.

These back-to-back data deletions come at a time when the Arctic is warming twice as fast as the global average. Just this week, it was reported that the Arctic’s winter sea ice dropped to its lowest level in recorded history. The impacts of a warming, ice-free Arctic are already clear: a decline in habitat for polar bears and other Arctic animals; increases in coastal erosion that force Alaskans to abandon their homes; and the opening up of shipping routes with unpredictable conditions and hazardous icebergs.

In a remote region where data is already scarce, we need publicly available government guidance and records now more than ever before. It is hard enough for modern Arctic researchers to perform experiments and collect data to fill the gaps left by historic scientific expeditions. While working in one of the most physically demanding environments on the planet, we don’t have time to fill new data gaps created by political malice.

So please, President Trump, stop deleting my citations.

Hmm, censoring data that disagrees with a pre-conceived idea, that couldn't possibly go wrong.

feth Donald Trump, and feth the Republican party. They are anti-science and anti-sense.

**Breotan**

feeder wrote:
No Frazz, they are technically citizens of another country. But in most ways that count, they are American. Why are you so hung up on a technicality?

Citizenship is a technicality? lol. That sounds like something Randy Quaid would have argued to the Canadian court when he was trying to get asylum there. Citizenship is NOT a technicality. In fact, it's central to immigration law to nearly every country on Earth. There's no statute of limitations in US immigration law that provides de facto citizenship if you can just stay under the radar for ten or fifteen years.

**Vaktathi**

Co'tor Shas wrote:
I doubt there is any way that Trump won't sign this, even is a massive gak-storm is kicked up, he doesn't give a gak. But I guess the party of corporations over people will continue at it's current direction.
https://www.cnet.com/news/house-votes-to-repeal-internet-privacy-rules-broadband-fcc/

yup, and for a party worried about family, small government, etc, they sure seem bound and determined to make everything available to corporations and governments

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
As always, here's a quick update for American dakka members on the UK situation. It'll save you from wading through dozens of pages.

Article 50 is on. The official withdrawal letter has been signed by the Prime Minister and will be handed to Donald Tusk, President of the European Commission. at 12:30pm GMT today.

Prime Minister May is calling for Britain to unite as one and get behind her ahead of the crucial Brexit talks which will probably begin in the month of May or June...

BUT

Northern Ireland has no government, as the power sharing agreement collapsed. There is talk of unification with the Republic of Ireland...

and the Scottish Parliament (our 'state legislature') just voted for another independence referendum by 69 votes to 59.

So, not quite a United Kingdom

But Donald Trump promised us a good trade deal, so we look forward to a bright new dawn with our American friends and allies under the visionary leadership of President Trump

so ah....why is the UK government insisting on going this route again?

**Stevefamine**

Co'tor Shas wrote:
feth Donald Trump, and feth the Republican party. They are anti-science and anti-sense.

Donald's a swell guy. So far he's been doing exactly what I've wanted. I'm just waiting on more drug control and another pass at the travel ban. Hitting another rally in two weeks! I do love my country

Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
As always, here's a quick update for American dakka members on the UK situation. It'll save you from wading through dozens of pages.

Article 50 is on. The official withdrawal letter has been signed by the Prime Minister and will be handed to Donald Tusk, President of the European Commission. at 12:30pm GMT today.

Prime Minister May is calling for Britain to unite as one and get behind her ahead of the crucial Brexit talks which will probably begin in the month of May or June...

BUT

Northern Ireland has no government, as the power sharing agreement collapsed. There is talk of unification with the Republic of Ireland...

and the Scottish Parliament (our 'state legislature') just voted for another independence referendum by 69 votes to 59.

So, not quite a United Kingdom

But Donald Trump promised us a good trade deal, so we look forward to a bright new dawn with our American friends and allies under the visionary leadership of President Trump

Good News!

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
CptJake wrote:
I know my family and the families of some close buddies have been impacted quite a bit more by Group A than group B. In fact, I have a hard time thinking of anyone I know who would claim to have been impacted by Group B, but know several impacted by Group A.

Are you black? Do you have a lot of black friends?
I don't know the answers but you didn't mention them and they seem very very relevant in this context though.

This is when you watch "Ben Shapiro vs Black Lives Matter" YouTube 5 minute clip, proceed to self destruct and block me (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__Vj3DXwOBI)

**Vaktathi**

Stevefamine wrote:
Co'tor Shas wrote:
feth Donald Trump, and feth the Republican party. They are anti-science and anti-sense.

Donald's a swell guy. So far he's been doing exactly what I've wanted. I'm just waiting on more drug control and another pass at the travel ban.

Because these have been such effective and popular measures with great track records of succes...

**Inquisitor Gideon**

Your definition of love and hate must be inverted. No one with an ounce of sanity could look at Trump's stupidity and say that he's doing good things. About the only thing he's been successful at is making your country look like a laughing stock to the rest of the world.

**Vaktathi**

Even if you like his agenda, the dude and the people he choses are just so inept and inexperienced that they cant get anything done, they dont understand the systems and administrations they're in charge of.

**Co'tor Shas**

Stevefamine wrote:
Co'tor Shas wrote:
feth Donald Trump, and feth the Republican party. They are anti-science and anti-sense.

Donald's a swell guy. So far he's been doing exactly what I've wanted. I'm just waiting on more drug control and another pass at the travel ban. Hitting another rally in two weeks! I do love my country

So you are arguing that deleteing scientific data that disagrees with a pre-supposed idea is a good thing? I guess I now know why I had you on ignore.

This is when you watch "Ben Shapiro vs Black Lives Matter" YouTube 5 minute clip, proceed to self destruct and block me (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__Vj3DXwOBI)

Because Ben Shapiro is such a great source.

**Ahtman**

Stevefamine wrote:
I do love my country

Well now I am confused because I thought you were pro Trump. Loving your country and loving an infantile, narcissistic con-man are incompatible ideas. It would be akin to espousing love for Christianity and love for Objectivism. In being for both one would either have to lie to themselves (and others) about one and/or profoundly misunderstand at least one of them.

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

Stevefamine wrote:
So far he's been doing exactly what I've wanted.

Remember when I said to Whembly that he was an instrument of evil, and then explained how it was not a violation of rule #1 because I didn't call him evil, I just insisted on the consequences of his action?
I'm very very close to telling you that you are evil

.

Stevefamine wrote:
This is when you watch "Ben Shapiro vs Black Lives Matter" YouTube 5 minute clip, proceed to self destruct and block me (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__Vj3DXwOBI)

Oh, I do?
Fake news! I have the best self-destructions, the best ones! Your auto-destructions are the failed attempts of a dying man! Sad! My hands are bigger.
But yeah, I love when someone tells me “This video will definitely infuriate you but won't convince you at all”, because then I know it's just trolling and I can safely ignore it without taking the risk of missing something of value

.

lol your guy wrote a book entitled “Porn Generation: How Social Liberalism Is Corrupting Our Future”

.

**cuda1179**

Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:

Part of the subsidization of in-state tuition comes from taxes on purchases/services within the state. So unless they're entirely self-sufficient, growing everything they need and living from streams or whatever--they're paying part of that subsidization.

And, as of the last article on the subject that I read (admittedly, 2 years ago now) in the state of California, undocumented immigrants are "Worth" about 2 billion in state/local taxes. In some jurisdictions within California, they provide the bulk of the tax input for that location, so it's not like they are contributing what amounts to nothing.

Actually, according to the Government the average illegal immigrant recieved more back in tax returns than they ever contribute. Illegal immigrants contribute about 12 billion in taxes (that's all taxes, property, sales, income, gasoline, etc) in a fiscal year. That's about $980 per person. Far, far below the national average.

**feeder**

Breotan wrote:
feeder wrote:
No Frazz, they are technically citizens of another country. But in most ways that count, they are American. Why are you so hung up on a technicality?

Citizenship is a technicality? lol. That sounds like something Randy Quaid would have argued to the Canadian court when he was trying to get asylum there. Citizenship is NOT a technicality. In fact, it's central to immigration law to nearly every country on Earth. There's no statute of limitations in US immigration law that provides de facto citizenship if you can just stay under the radar for ten or fifteen years.

We are talking about kids who have spent most if not all of their lives in your country, and who want to help to make your country great again by increasing their knowledge and earning power through higher education.

This bizarre fixation with whether or not someone who has grown up in your country is 'legal' or not is puzzling to me. Surely to be an American is upholding her ideals and values, not possessing ze correct papers.

**Xenomancers**

feeder wrote:
Breotan wrote:
feeder wrote:
No Frazz, they are technically citizens of another country. But in most ways that count, they are American. Why are you so hung up on a technicality?

Citizenship is a technicality? lol. That sounds like something Randy Quaid would have argued to the Canadian court when he was trying to get asylum there. Citizenship is NOT a technicality. In fact, it's central to immigration law to nearly every country on Earth. There's no statute of limitations in US immigration law that provides de facto citizenship if you can just stay under the radar for ten or fifteen years.

We are talking about kids who have spent most if not all of their lives in your country, and who want to help to make your country great again by increasing their knowledge and earning power through higher education.

This bizarre fixation with whether or not someone who has grown up in your country is 'legal' or not is puzzling to me. Surely to be an American is upholding her ideals and values, not possessing ze correct papers.

I find it bizarre that you think anyone has a right to be a citizen to any country they want just by living their illegally for any amount of time.

**Dreadclaw69**

feeder wrote:
We are talking about kids who have spent most if not all of their lives in your country, and who want to help to make your country great again by increasing their knowledge and earning power through higher education.

This bizarre fixation with whether or not someone who has grown up in your country is 'legal' or not is puzzling to me. Surely to be an American is upholding her ideals and values, not possessing ze correct papers.

So what are the requirements for citizenship in Canada, or other industrialized nations? I believe that most industrialized countries do not take too kindly to people being unlawfully present in their country. Any talk about "ze correct papers" is just asinine.

**feeder**

Xenomancers wrote:
feeder wrote:
Breotan wrote:
feeder wrote:
No Frazz, they are technically citizens of another country. But in most ways that count, they are American. Why are you so hung up on a technicality?

Citizenship is a technicality? lol. That sounds like something Randy Quaid would have argued to the Canadian court when he was trying to get asylum there. Citizenship is NOT a technicality. In fact, it's central to immigration law to nearly every country on Earth. There's no statute of limitations in US immigration law that provides de facto citizenship if you can just stay under the radar for ten or fifteen years.

We are talking about kids who have spent most if not all of their lives in your country, and who want to help to make your country great again by increasing their knowledge and earning power through higher education.

This bizarre fixation with whether or not someone who has grown up in your country is 'legal' or not is puzzling to me. Surely to be an American is upholding her ideals and values, not possessing ze correct papers.

I find it bizarre that you think anyone has a right to be a citizen to any country they want just by living their illegally for any amount of time.

That's how our countries were founded, brah. We just showed up and never left.

Seriously, though. We are talking about kids and young adults trying to go to school. This is a good thing and should be encouraged, because more educated member of society makes your country great.

These kids exist and the US can try to help turn them into functioning, productive Americans, or help create more MS-13 members by persecuting them for a crime they had no hand in.