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laam999 wrote: They will, but they'll gain access to the stratagems and the new things from vigilus book can still be used, it's a clever tactic, it's just a trade
Might aswell add some hoplites too at that point haha! Would be interesting how it plays out
How many kans can a killa kan kill if a killa kan can kill kans?
deffrekka wrote: How are you mixing forgeworlds into 1 detachment? You lose all the dogmas dont you?
Yup, but being able to use the specific stratagems is much more worth, because our Dogmas are (except Stygies) not that much worth.
I think the same can be said for pretty much all factions in the game, most codexes have alot of bad traits that they arent taken. Its only really the later dexes that have the better traits.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/12 15:52:46
How many kans can a killa kan kill if a killa kan can kill kans?
Had a fun game today, 2000 pts AdMech two battalions VS Raven Guard, with one of the new CA Eternal War missions. Wanted to try the two fisty Robots I bought yesterday. I won 20-9 and tabled him on turn 5. The new missions look great and with the way deployment works it was a brain exercise to infiltrate both our armies, as he deployed them first and I had to adapt.
Play of the game was the survivor of a Ranger squad that got murdered by Shrike. After having dealt with him with my Icarus, this lone Ranger killed a Marine every turn until this epic shot on a 4+ where he took the last wound off a Repulsor and had it exploding, killing a last Devastator and talmost killing a Primaris Lieutenant. Glorious.
From my mathhammering 6x RYZA plasma destroyers do twice as much expected damage to a 4++ knight as AGRIPINNA assuming RR1s and +1 to hit.
6*3.5*0.78*0.67*0.5*3 - 16.5
Adding in ELIMINATION VOLLEY on top of that gets you to:
6*3.5*0.97*0.67*0.5*3 - 20.5
AGGRIPINA with just the +1 versus a 4++ knight:
6*3.5*0.78*0.5*0.5*2 - 8.2
AGGRIPINA Gravaphrons for reference:
6*5*0.78*0.33*0.5*2 - 7.7
Based on this I think it is really worth running the plasma destroyers as RYZA, especially in ITC where you could probably get them into a piece of ruins and prevent them from being in LOS on turn 1. You shouldn't have a deployment in ITC where there is zero LOS blocking terrain for INFANTRY models. Also, units of servitors that are AGRIPPINA can be restored to 4 models for only 1CP but they don't have to share a forgeworld for purposes of the biosplicing strategem.
From this I conclude the following:
- Run your PlasmaDestroyers as RYZA
- Run your Servitors as AGRIPPINA
- I think committing to RYZA means running 2x6 plasma destroyers and relying on the WLT to bring back 4 bases over the course of the game
- Gravaphrons are almost as good as non-Ryza plasmaphrons if you aren't RYZA even against super hard targets
- 220 points of kastelons and 2CP for +1 to hit is not worth it relative to just bringing 220 more points of destroyers
Wulfey wrote: From my mathhammering 6x RYZA plasma destroyers do twice as much expected damage to a 4++ knight as AGRIPINNA assuming RR1s and +1 to hit.
6*3.5*0.78*0.67*0.5*3 - 16.5
Adding in ELIMINATION VOLLEY on top of that gets you to:
6*3.5*0.97*0.67*0.5*3 - 20.5
AGGRIPINA with just the +1 versus a 4++ knight:
6*3.5*0.78*0.5*0.5*2 - 8.2
AGGRIPINA Gravaphrons for reference:
6*5*0.78*0.33*0.5*2 - 7.7
Based on this I think it is really worth running the plasma destroyers as RYZA, especially in ITC where you could probably get them into a piece of ruins and prevent them from being in LOS on turn 1. You shouldn't have a deployment in ITC where there is zero LOS blocking terrain for INFANTRY models. Also, units of servitors that are AGRIPPINA can be restored to 4 models for only 1CP but they don't have to share a forgeworld for purposes of the biosplicing strategem.
From this I conclude the following:
- Run your PlasmaDestroyers as RYZA
- Run your Servitors as AGRIPPINA
- I think committing to RYZA means running 2x6 plasma destroyers and relying on the WLT to bring back 4 bases over the course of the game
- Gravaphrons are almost as good as non-Ryza plasmaphrons if you aren't RYZA even against super hard targets
- 220 points of kastelons and 2CP for +1 to hit is not worth it relative to just bringing 220 more points of destroyers
Yeah. My math says the same. Just got to play the Ryza Kataphrons a bit more carefully. They likely won't let them live more than one turn. Indeed, it makes the case for two units a lot stronger than bringing 2x Robots, just as you said. That being said, I don't think building for Elimination Volley or bringing a second unit of Kataphrons is necessary. Kataphrons should just be yet another high threat tool in our toolbox.
I actually like running Servitors as Graia in multi-FW detachments because they help protect your Kataphrons and nearby units from psychic powers.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, another fun fact: Kataphrons can use the Infoslave Skull stratagem and intercept any unit within 12". LOL. And yes, you can use the stratagems because the stratagem specifies "as if it were the Shooting phase."
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/12 20:27:17
Well youve picked an optimal target for the plasma over grav, ignored the eye of xi lexum, ignored the survivability agripinaa offers in terms of strat and overwatch to high volume of fire models as to the 220pts for robots your not just paying for +1bs you are also paying for 36 shots and a distraction.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/12 20:29:16
U02dah4 wrote: Well youve picked an optimal target for the plasma over grav, ignored the eye of xi lexum, ignored the survivability agripinaa offers in terms of strat and overwatch to high volume of fire models as to the 220pts for robots your not just paying for +1bs you are also paying for 36 shots and a distraction.
The eye of xi lexum only works within 18" of an enemy vehicle to get reroll 1's to wound and comes out of a relic slot, or you pay a CP extra to get it. As your plasma destroyers are already regretting a vehicle you might Aswell spend the 1 CP to get +1 to wound and damage. As for Agripinaa's dogma, it can be just as useless as Ryza's if you never actually get charged and see combat.
Ryza's plasma specialists works against all target, monsters, battlesuits, infantry and vehicles unlike the eye. Agripinaa is better on grav destroyers instead of plasma destroyers, and as proven before Ryza will double the damage dealt even with just a +1 to hit from noospheric mindlock. I personally would go Ryza over Agripinaa as to me getting that RAW damage off is better than maybe getting to recycle a squad if they don't get wiped.
How many kans can a killa kan kill if a killa kan can kill kans?
U02dah4 wrote: Well youve picked an optimal target for the plasma over grav, ignored the eye of xi lexum, ignored the survivability agripinaa offers in terms of strat and overwatch to high volume of fire models as to the 220pts for robots your not just paying for +1bs you are also paying for 36 shots and a distraction.
I would say any competitive admech list has to have some kind of an answer for 3 things:
(1) Knight Castellan (2) Alaitoc / Ynnari Fliers, Shining Spears, and Dark Reapers (3) Hordes of fast melee (orks, daemons, tyranid)
I am not picking these target profiles at random. These are the top tier and common threats I expect at the LVO (also these are what was winning and what I faced at SoCal open). When designing a competitive majority admech list, you should have some answer for 1,2,3 in there. Or else you should have a theory as to why you will for sure win against two of them and don't mind a disadvantage against the third. I don't think there is an admech list that actually competes with all three of those things at once. Some of the various RYZA destroyer soups over the last page feel winning against (1) and (2). I question how they deal with (3) but that is a tradeoff that can make sense since (3) isn't as much of a threat if you are bringing a whole lot of infantry to speed bump the first turn charge.
As an example, my current thinking of my MARS brigade + smash:
Spoiler:
MARS brigade Cawl + 2x enginseer 5x9 rangers with omnispex 2x8 vanguard 3x1 autocannon ballistari 3x1 neutron onagers 3x10 infiltrators
BLANGELS patrol Smash + 1x6 scouts
Versus (1) I am counting on not having that many good targets for the castellan starting on the board. My ballistari are going to get shredded if they can't hide (but maybe they can and use their speed to get back into cawl aura range). My neutrons are vulnerable to the castellan, but they can force the 3CP shield strategem and are relatively tough targets for their points (119 points for 11 T7/5++ wounds is very good). I would be counting on my infiltrator + wrath of mars and my smash captain to deal with the castellan.
Versus (2) I am keeping at least 2 infiltrators off the board and hopefully putting 1 out of LOS. I expect to use WRATH every turn from the infiltrators to kill key low wound count elite units (spears, reapers). I also have smash if the fliers get close. The rangers with omnispexes can get easy kill points on eldar rangers and eldar footmen and even threaten dark reapers in LOS. Ballistari are again going to die hard, but they are only 60 points a piece and I don't mind dark reapers cleaning them up.
Versus (3) I have 60 skitarii foot and 30 elites that can put out 150 flechette shots a turn. The infiltrators are even plausible counter chargers after the first rank of skitarii foot get annihilated (hopefully costing my opponent CP). In a full on middle of the board melee class I get full rerolls to hit on my infiltrators from the relic. Smash isn't that great here, but he does give me 1 hard hitter to take on a daemon prince or something that actually fights hard in melee.
EDIT: on the specifics of AGRIPINNA vesus RYZA, my buddy who wants to run AGRIPINNA is leaning towards GRAV because grav is better against lower T targets and is within 10% versus the hardest plausible target T8/3++. My conclusion is that RYZA needs 2x6 for redundancy but does more damage. AGRIPINNA you might as well run GRAV because it is easier to use and more consistent against more targets without worrying about modifiers and overcharge. I worry abotu AGRIPINNA's ability to deal with (1) castellan because it just doesn't have the math to drop the knight in two full turns of shooting, but the knight can plausibly kill 6 bases in 1 full volley. I would say that AGRIPINA for sure does better against (2) eldar and their 3+ saves and modifiers and (3) hordes because FRESH RECRUITS lets you pull a grav squad out of combat and start it somewhere else in your deployment zone.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/12/12 21:12:29
I do take your point but then your answer is plasma is best provided you take 90 models for dealing with horde.
If you only take 25 vanguard and 0-5 infiltrators Grav might be more beneficial vs 3 which is where agripinaa overwatch also comes in
Vs 2 -1's can still pose a plasma risk and grav is still strong due to the lower t wound count
Personnally it might be my local meta but 2 and 3 seem on the increase in comparison to 1 and of the 3 it seems least buffed by chapter approved.
The castellan list is a difficult match up if they castle it properly even your list is going to struggle to take it out by t2 as T1 your vanguard will be out of range and your infiltrators wont have landed. While your smash can't hit it till the screen is clear.
Aggripinaa's reroll to W of 1 on all guns with the eye of xi lexum is a big boost if you want to early kill it /bracket it alternatively focussing the rest of the army and playing the objectives
18" yes but the model its on moves 9.5 assuming advance and only it has to be 18" to boost all your backfield artillery
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/13 00:19:38
U02dah4 wrote: Well youve picked an optimal target for the plasma over grav, ignored the eye of xi lexum, ignored the survivability agripinaa offers in terms of strat and overwatch to high volume of fire models as to the 220pts for robots your not just paying for +1bs you are also paying for 36 shots and a distraction.
I would say any competitive admech list has to have some kind of an answer for 3 things:
(1) Knight Castellan
(2) Alaitoc / Ynnari Fliers, Shining Spears, and Dark Reapers
(3) Hordes of fast melee (orks, daemons, tyranid)
I am not picking these target profiles at random. These are the top tier and common threats I expect at the LVO (also these are what was winning and what I faced at SoCal open). When designing a competitive majority admech list, you should have some answer for 1,2,3 in there. Or else you should have a theory as to why you will for sure win against two of them and don't mind a disadvantage against the third. I don't think there is an admech list that actually competes with all three of those things at once. Some of the various RYZA destroyer soups over the last page feel winning against (1) and (2). I question how they deal with (3) but that is a tradeoff that can make sense since (3) isn't as much of a threat if you are bringing a whole lot of infantry to speed bump the first turn charge.
As an example, my current thinking of my MARS brigade + smash:
Spoiler:
MARS brigade
Cawl + 2x enginseer
5x9 rangers with omnispex
2x8 vanguard
3x1 autocannon ballistari
3x1 neutron onagers
3x10 infiltrators
BLANGELS patrol
Smash + 1x6 scouts
Versus (1) I am counting on not having that many good targets for the castellan starting on the board. My ballistari are going to get shredded if they can't hide (but maybe they can and use their speed to get back into cawl aura range). My neutrons are vulnerable to the castellan, but they can force the 3CP shield strategem and are relatively tough targets for their points (119 points for 11 T7/5++ wounds is very good). I would be counting on my infiltrator + wrath of mars and my smash captain to deal with the castellan.
Versus (2) I am keeping at least 2 infiltrators off the board and hopefully putting 1 out of LOS. I expect to use WRATH every turn from the infiltrators to kill key low wound count elite units (spears, reapers). I also have smash if the fliers get close. The rangers with omnispexes can get easy kill points on eldar rangers and eldar footmen and even threaten dark reapers in LOS. Ballistari are again going to die hard, but they are only 60 points a piece and I don't mind dark reapers cleaning them up.
Versus (3) I have 60 skitarii foot and 30 elites that can put out 150 flechette shots a turn. The infiltrators are even plausible counter chargers after the first rank of skitarii foot get annihilated (hopefully costing my opponent CP). In a full on middle of the board melee class I get full rerolls to hit on my infiltrators from the relic. Smash isn't that great here, but he does give me 1 hard hitter to take on a daemon prince or something that actually fights hard in melee.
EDIT: on the specifics of AGRIPINNA vesus RYZA, my buddy who wants to run AGRIPINNA is leaning towards GRAV because grav is better against lower T targets and is within 10% versus the hardest plausible target T8/3++. My conclusion is that RYZA needs 2x6 for redundancy but does more damage. AGRIPINNA you might as well run GRAV because it is easier to use and more consistent against more targets without worrying about modifiers and overcharge. I worry abotu AGRIPINNA's ability to deal with (1) castellan because it just doesn't have the math to drop the knight in two full turns of shooting, but the knight can plausibly kill 6 bases in 1 full volley. I would say that AGRIPINA for sure does better against (2) eldar and their 3+ saves and modifiers and (3) hordes because FRESH RECRUITS lets you pull a grav squad out of combat and start it somewhere else in your deployment zone.
Just out of curiosity, how often do you roll 6's to wound with you infiltrators when you pop wrath of mars? On average wouldnt it be around 6.6 MWs
How many kans can a killa kan kill if a killa kan can kill kans?
6.6MWs is the difference between dead dark reaper squad / shining spears and a not dead target. Unlike dakkabots, the infiltrator play cannot kill a knight with wrath of mars. This is a weakness I am taking assuming that (2) eldar and (3) hordes are more dangerous than (1) castellan.
Pure admech has a very hard time versus castellans period because even though a 1x6 dakkabots can do like 18-20 wounds to a knight, the knight can kill 3 dakkabots a turn from longer range. EDIT: and I have gotten cheated by fast melee players before who claim they can snake stuff to touch the dakkabots first turn. For sure dakkabots do more damage to hordes than infiltrators if they get to fire. It is harder to cheat infiltrators than dakkabots.
Also note that if you can get to 2+ rerolling to hit, then 10 infiltrators should do 8 MW:
50*0.97*0.167 = 8
I can use the skitarii strategem to give them +1 to hit and then either use Cawl's aura or use the reroll 1s to hit in shooting stratagem.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/12 22:42:12
@wulfey I am really liking the viability of brigades now and your list is definitely an interesting one, I’m actually tempted to go out and get more infiltrators. Even pre faq they had been surprise match winners for me on a couple of occasions.
What are you planning on doing with the six scouts though?
The six scouts are for very specific matchups where I think my opponent has a strong infiltrate move, other scouts, nurglings, or stealth suits. Or they can be used to make the 9" deepstrike bubble that comes from teleporting daemons / orks even longer than it otherwise would be (this puts DAJUMP 18-27" from your deployment edge instead of 9"). The scouts also cheaply get the BLANGELS strategems and prevent loss of a CP.
EDIT: having played 3x5 scout squads for like a year, I always kept wishing I actually had 1 squad that was like 10. If I had 1 super scout squad then I could make a 28" daisy chain on the first drop that denies a huge board area to my opponent. They also block knight movement in the movement phase (even if they just get annihilated, that can easily be 8" of gallant movement slowed down).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/12 23:02:20
Wulfey wrote: 6.6MWs is the difference between dead dark reaper squad / shining spears and a not dead target. Unlike dakkabots, the infiltrator play cannot kill a knight with wrath of mars. This is a weakness I am taking assuming that (2) eldar and (3) hordes are more dangerous than (1) castellan.
Pure admech has a very hard time versus castellans period because even though a 1x6 dakkabots can do like 18-20 wounds to a knight, the knight can kill 3 dakkabots a turn from longer range. EDIT: and I have gotten cheated by fast melee players before who claim they can snake stuff to touch the dakkabots first turn. For sure dakkabots do more damage to hordes than infiltrators if they get to fire. It is harder to cheat infiltrators than dakkabots.
Also note that if you can get to 2+ rerolling to hit, then 10 infiltrators should do 8 MW:
50*0.97*0.167 = 8
I can use the skitarii strategem to give them +1 to hit and then either use Cawl's aura or use the reroll 1s to hit in shooting stratagem.
I was just generally curious how many 6's you usually roll. If its me, my 6's pop up quite regularly to the annoyance of my gaming group but I haven't used Mars this edition, always stygies I've gone.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/12 23:10:05
How many kans can a killa kan kill if a killa kan can kill kans?
Last time I took out the dakkabots I got burned pretty bad a few times with not enough 6s showing up on the 1 critical turn of shooting I needed to stay in the game. So yeah, you have to round any 6 roll expectations down pretty hard. Hence the redundancy of being able to do it so many turns in a row!
U02dah4 wrote: Well youve picked an optimal target for the plasma over grav, ignored the eye of xi lexum, ignored the survivability agripinaa offers in terms of strat and overwatch to high volume of fire models as to the 220pts for robots your not just paying for +1bs you are also paying for 36 shots and a distraction.
I would say any competitive admech list has to have some kind of an answer for 3 things:
(1) Knight Castellan
(2) Alaitoc / Ynnari Fliers, Shining Spears, and Dark Reapers
(3) Hordes of fast melee (orks, daemons, tyranid)
I am not picking these target profiles at random. These are the top tier and common threats I expect at the LVO (also these are what was winning and what I faced at SoCal open). When designing a competitive majority admech list, you should have some answer for 1,2,3 in there. Or else you should have a theory as to why you will for sure win against two of them and don't mind a disadvantage against the third. I don't think there is an admech list that actually competes with all three of those things at once. Some of the various RYZA destroyer soups over the last page feel winning against (1) and (2). I question how they deal with (3) but that is a tradeoff that can make sense since (3) isn't as much of a threat if you are bringing a whole lot of infantry to speed bump the first turn charge.
As an example, my current thinking of my MARS brigade + smash:
Spoiler:
MARS brigade
Cawl + 2x enginseer
5x9 rangers with omnispex
2x8 vanguard
3x1 autocannon ballistari
3x1 neutron onagers
3x10 infiltrators
BLANGELS patrol
Smash + 1x6 scouts
Versus (1) I am counting on not having that many good targets for the castellan starting on the board. My ballistari are going to get shredded if they can't hide (but maybe they can and use their speed to get back into cawl aura range). My neutrons are vulnerable to the castellan, but they can force the 3CP shield strategem and are relatively tough targets for their points (119 points for 11 T7/5++ wounds is very good). I would be counting on my infiltrator + wrath of mars and my smash captain to deal with the castellan.
Versus (2) I am keeping at least 2 infiltrators off the board and hopefully putting 1 out of LOS. I expect to use WRATH every turn from the infiltrators to kill key low wound count elite units (spears, reapers). I also have smash if the fliers get close. The rangers with omnispexes can get easy kill points on eldar rangers and eldar footmen and even threaten dark reapers in LOS. Ballistari are again going to die hard, but they are only 60 points a piece and I don't mind dark reapers cleaning them up.
Versus (3) I have 60 skitarii foot and 30 elites that can put out 150 flechette shots a turn. The infiltrators are even plausible counter chargers after the first rank of skitarii foot get annihilated (hopefully costing my opponent CP). In a full on middle of the board melee class I get full rerolls to hit on my infiltrators from the relic. Smash isn't that great here, but he does give me 1 hard hitter to take on a daemon prince or something that actually fights hard in melee.
EDIT: on the specifics of AGRIPINNA vesus RYZA, my buddy who wants to run AGRIPINNA is leaning towards GRAV because grav is better against lower T targets and is within 10% versus the hardest plausible target T8/3++. My conclusion is that RYZA needs 2x6 for redundancy but does more damage. AGRIPINNA you might as well run GRAV because it is easier to use and more consistent against more targets without worrying about modifiers and overcharge. I worry abotu AGRIPINNA's ability to deal with (1) castellan because it just doesn't have the math to drop the knight in two full turns of shooting, but the knight can plausibly kill 6 bases in 1 full volley. I would say that AGRIPINA for sure does better against (2) eldar and their 3+ saves and modifiers and (3) hordes because FRESH RECRUITS lets you pull a grav squad out of combat and start it somewhere else in your deployment zone.
My solution is Mars Spearhead (or Battalion) with 3x Icarus Crawlers, Mech Soup Battalion, and a Catachan Battalion. I might go down to 5 Kastelan Robots or 2 Icarus Crawlers for more Catachan. I think having Straken+MiniPriest with 20 Guardsmen, Company Commander with 20 Guardsmen, and Company/Platoon Commander with 10 Guardsmen should suffice.
I would avoid Smash Captains right now because we don't have many other complementary assault units. And furthermore, a lot of Soup/Knights lists are preparing for Smash Captains. They definitely are still strong, but I think we have the tools within the faction to pursue a distinctly AdMech shooting strategy. (Basically, the army divides into 2-3 components and the Guardsmen form a flexible screen as they get into position and/or MMM for objectives.)
If you run Grav, Agripinaa is definitely the best choice. But it's a hammer in search of a nail in my opinion. MEQs and TEQs have structural weaknesses in 8E that make them easy pickings for most armies. Ironically, a lack of preparation for TEQs is precisely why Don's DG list did so well at BAO.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/12 23:32:25
U02dah4 wrote: Well youve picked an optimal target for the plasma over grav, ignored the eye of xi lexum, ignored the survivability agripinaa offers in terms of strat and overwatch to high volume of fire models as to the 220pts for robots your not just paying for +1bs you are also paying for 36 shots and a distraction.
I would say any competitive admech list has to have some kind of an answer for 3 things:
(1) Knight Castellan
(2) Alaitoc / Ynnari Fliers, Shining Spears, and Dark Reapers
(3) Hordes of fast melee (orks, daemons, tyranid)
I am not picking these target profiles at random. These are the top tier and common threats I expect at the LVO (also these are what was winning and what I faced at SoCal open). When designing a competitive majority admech list, you should have some answer for 1,2,3 in there. Or else you should have a theory as to why you will for sure win against two of them and don't mind a disadvantage against the third. I don't think there is an admech list that actually competes with all three of those things at once. Some of the various RYZA destroyer soups over the last page feel winning against (1) and (2). I question how they deal with (3) but that is a tradeoff that can make sense since (3) isn't as much of a threat if you are bringing a whole lot of infantry to speed bump the first turn charge.
As an example, my current thinking of my MARS brigade + smash:
Spoiler:
MARS brigade
Cawl + 2x enginseer
5x9 rangers with omnispex
2x8 vanguard
3x1 autocannon ballistari
3x1 neutron onagers
3x10 infiltrators
BLANGELS patrol
Smash + 1x6 scouts
Versus (1) I am counting on not having that many good targets for the castellan starting on the board. My ballistari are going to get shredded if they can't hide (but maybe they can and use their speed to get back into cawl aura range). My neutrons are vulnerable to the castellan, but they can force the 3CP shield strategem and are relatively tough targets for their points (119 points for 11 T7/5++ wounds is very good). I would be counting on my infiltrator + wrath of mars and my smash captain to deal with the castellan.
Versus (2) I am keeping at least 2 infiltrators off the board and hopefully putting 1 out of LOS. I expect to use WRATH every turn from the infiltrators to kill key low wound count elite units (spears, reapers). I also have smash if the fliers get close. The rangers with omnispexes can get easy kill points on eldar rangers and eldar footmen and even threaten dark reapers in LOS. Ballistari are again going to die hard, but they are only 60 points a piece and I don't mind dark reapers cleaning them up.
Versus (3) I have 60 skitarii foot and 30 elites that can put out 150 flechette shots a turn. The infiltrators are even plausible counter chargers after the first rank of skitarii foot get annihilated (hopefully costing my opponent CP). In a full on middle of the board melee class I get full rerolls to hit on my infiltrators from the relic. Smash isn't that great here, but he does give me 1 hard hitter to take on a daemon prince or something that actually fights hard in melee.
EDIT: on the specifics of AGRIPINNA vesus RYZA, my buddy who wants to run AGRIPINNA is leaning towards GRAV because grav is better against lower T targets and is within 10% versus the hardest plausible target T8/3++. My conclusion is that RYZA needs 2x6 for redundancy but does more damage. AGRIPINNA you might as well run GRAV because it is easier to use and more consistent against more targets without worrying about modifiers and overcharge. I worry abotu AGRIPINNA's ability to deal with (1) castellan because it just doesn't have the math to drop the knight in two full turns of shooting, but the knight can plausibly kill 6 bases in 1 full volley. I would say that AGRIPINA for sure does better against (2) eldar and their 3+ saves and modifiers and (3) hordes because FRESH RECRUITS lets you pull a grav squad out of combat and start it somewhere else in your deployment zone.
My solution is Mars Spearhead (or Battalion) with 3x Icarus Crawlers, Mech Soup Battalion, and a Catachan Battalion. I might go down to 5 Kastelan Robots or 2 Icarus Crawlers for more Catachan. I think having Straken+MiniPriest with 20 Guardsmen, Company Commander with 20 Guardsmen, and Company/Platoon Commander with 10 Guardsmen should suffice.
I would avoid Smash Captains right now because we don't have many other complementary assault units. And furthermore, a lot of Soup/Knights lists are preparing for Smash Captains. They definitely are still strong, but I think we have the tools within the faction to pursue a distinctly AdMech shooting strategy. (Basically, the army divides into 2-3 components and the Guardsmen form a flexible screen as they get into position and/or MMM for objectives.)
If you run Grav, Agripinaa is definitely the best choice. But it's a hammer in search of a nail in my opinion. MEQs and TEQs have structural weaknesses in 8E that make them easy pickings for most armies. Ironically, a lack of preparation for TEQs is precisely why Don's DG list did so well at BAO.
Now that's a list I want to hear how it performs. Kudos for doing something different with guard than just the same old, same old 32. Isn't 3 Icarus Crawlers kind of excessive though? If there aren't any worthwhile flying units then you'll only be able to boost one of them with Protector Doctrina.
Dark it was, and dire of form
the beast that laid them low
Hrothgar's sharpened frost-forged blade
to deal a fatal blow
he stalked and hunted day and night
and came upon it's lair
With sword and shield Hrothgar fought
and earned the name of slayer
Yeah. Like I said, probably will cut a Crawler for more infantry.
On that note, Flechette Blaster and Taser Goad is the flavor of the edition for Infiltrators, right? 180 points for a unit of 10. Seems a bit steep, especially for a unit with a one-fourth chance or so of not making their charge. Used to be 220 though. Sheesh. =\
Suzuteo wrote: Yeah. Like I said, probably will cut a Crawler for more infantry.
On that note, Flechette Blaster and Taser Goad is the flavor of the edition for Infiltrators, right? 180 points for a unit of 10. Seems a bit steep, especially for a unit with a one-fourth chance or so of not making their charge. Used to be 220 though. Sheesh. =\
It's mostly for 50 Mars Strat shots that do a mortal on a 6+ to wound. Making a charge is just a bonus. Not a bad way to spend 180pts.
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Oh, I don't disagree. I was just checking to make sure I got the setup right. With the sharp points decrease, it seems viable right now, but I am not sure if it is optimal.
Definitely Blaster + Goad. 30 vs 50 shots for MW generation us huge.
Also depending on the match up I wouldn't even deepstrike them. If you go up against Orks or Nids just use them as a second line defense for you gunline. Let them charge your Guardsman or Skitarii or what ever screen and then counter charge. 21 S6 attacks exploding on +5 possible rerolling 1's is huge.
Yeah Acquisition at all Costs is pretty good on Kataphrons in cover and with the enhanced invun saves. 2+ 4++ at t5 3 wounds each. Just wont be able to do it turn if your going second.
How many kans can a killa kan kill if a killa kan can kill kans?
Sure, but you should be able to hide them inside ruins turn 1 anyway. Sure if your opponent has got 9 Basilisks you may have a proble, but there will be always hard counters.
AdMech (Main army)
Black Templars (original army)
Death Guard (lazy side project)
Imperial Knights (extension of AdMech)
Harlequins (fun side project)
but I haven't used Mars this edition, always stygies I've gone.
