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 Ideasweasel wrote:

 lash92 wrote:
Dragoons all the way. They have an in build -1 and will flood the enemy with S8 attacks due to exploding hits on 4+. Easily my favorite unit!

Yeah I second the chicken love. I even enjoy them in my mars lists.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wulfey wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
Is Grand Strategist good still? Maximum 6 CP refunded over a game, right?

Not sure really. Monitor Malevelos is almost as good. The admech price buffs actually have me looking at running an actual 100% admech list at LVO. I would be running Cawl + 1x6 dakkabots as the core, with other admech grafted on as necessary. I still think bots and cawl are the way to go. But damn if those infantry aren't efficient now. I need to go look at that facebook spreadsheet again to see how the plasma calivers are doing now.

Are you leaning towards 2 or 3 detachments in a pure Admech list?

What are people’s consensus on 3x battalions. Too much of a tax or with engineer reductions acceptable now?

I don't think you need a third battalion as pure admech since there aren't that many strong strategems to make the taxes pay off.

MARS double battalion with STYGIES aux


MARS brigade with Smash captain patrol (based on Reece's ideas in podcast)


With these neutron changes I just can't see bringing the guard vehicles again. Neutrons are so cheap now. -26 points a chassis is bananas. Ballistari are cheap now too, maybe they can hide out of LOS and rely on Cawl's aura to keep them relevant? They are a bit of a tax in the brigade ... but ... I kinda like them at 80 points. The autocannon ones don't feel relevant versus any specific threat, and the infiltrator spam covers dealing with weaker or high invulnerable threats.

EDIT: if you don't like smash in the brigade, you can trade 1 stack of infiltrators and Smash and the scouts for: 1x5 STYGIES dragoons and 1x4 servitors

Wulfey wrote:

 Suzuteo wrote:
Problem with Calivers is that you have to run them Lucius. That or bring a ton of Drills...

Why not bring Kataphrons? Too worried about durability?

I have them sitting on the shelf, but they still cost either 48 for plasma or 51 for grav assuming the phosphor blaster. A neutron with 2x stubber is now 119. Kataphrons are now for sure more damage than dakkabots point for point. But it all comes down to their terrible saves and how good of a shooting target they are. Even with AGRIPINNA and the servitor farm, you can lose kataphrons to stray mortar fire. Their saves are bad on a very pricey unit that can't natively deepstrike and instantly dies in combat. A RAVEN castellan could kill an easy 5 bases with Cawls wrath, 2 from the volcano lance, 1.5 from the shoulder guns, and 1 from the shieldbreaker missile. I haven't run the mathhammer yet but my instinct says that the castellan could kill 8 bases or 400 points a turn. 600 points of plasmaphrons should take 12-14 wounds off of a castellan. But then it still shoots at full strength and strips bases off the board every time you fail a 5++ (assuming the detachment).

How do you think kataphrons should be run? I can't figure it out.

Im thinking of trying 5 grav flamers in agripinaa. Going second you have cover 3 turns straight so your still 3W t5 3+ 5++ and if the squad isnt wiped its going back to full strength. Ruin hideing is a great option or taking a litteral bunker. Cawl wrath is lethal vs whatever target. But it only Avg 7 shots so if it misses 1 fails to W 1 or 2 and you make 1 or 2 5++ it wont kill the unit alone. If he empties everything into it then everything else is still good what doesnt it delete

Wulfey wrote:
I have them sitting on the shelf, but they still cost either 48 for plasma or 51 for grav assuming the phosphor blaster. A neutron with 2x stubber is now 119. Kataphrons are now for sure more damage than dakkabots point for point. But it all comes down to their terrible saves and how good of a shooting target they are. Even with AGRIPINNA and the servitor farm, you can lose kataphrons to stray mortar fire. Their saves are bad on a very pricey unit that can't natively deepstrike and instantly dies in combat. A RAVEN castellan could kill an easy 5 bases with Cawls wrath, 2 from the volcano lance, 1.5 from the shoulder guns, and 1 from the shieldbreaker missile. I haven't run the mathhammer yet but my instinct says that the castellan could kill 8 bases or 400 points a turn. 600 points of plasmaphrons should take 12-14 wounds off of a castellan. But then it still shoots at full strength and strips bases off the board every time you fail a 5++ (assuming the detachment).

How do you think kataphrons should be run? I can't figure it out.

I think it's how you use them that matters. They're basically like any other heavy weapons infantry. Deploy them in ruins with a bunch of Catachans protecting them, pop them out to shoot something important. It works for Guard, why not us?

tneva82 wrote:
And opponent is unlikely to deploy his objectives so that you can easily see them. Add to that terrain and the fact you have to put 12" gap from those and again: If you put your bots into immobile you would be lucky to see more than 2 objectives. Or maybe you see them but enemy can get within 3" and still be out of LOS.

So your immobile bots are guarding 1, maybe 2 objectives and opponent can use LOS blockers to deal with rest of army. If all are around bots...Well then neither is killing anything unless he wants to open action while he controls 4-5 objectives. Good luck.

Precisely because game isn't about mindlessly killing things being immobile is bad. If it was just mindlessly killing things sure lock up, shoot and mindlessly kill things with your immobile bots. Others meanwhile move and control objectives.

That's fine? I'm simply pointing out that trying to create a lopsided board is inherently bad play for a shooting army. I never said you could make your opponent do anything. In fact, my entire argument is that every time you try to change protocols, you can't stop your opponent from simply moving out of danger, so you will pretty much never get the benefits of double shooting. Override at least gives you one devastating turn of shooting to delete a critical unit from the board. If you do so in a good spot, you can also make it difficult for opponents to maneuver. And before you say it, no, changing protocols does not do this. Not any more than simply keeping Aegis mode on. Indeed, you're not really arguing for mobility as much as the illusion of mobility for a unit whose greatest benefit only comes at the cost of being rooted.

In any case, I tire of this argument. My advice is don't bring Datasmiths, don't bother taking the relic, and keep Robots in Aegis mode until you need them to kill something important. Then Override them in a good spot to do it. This is optimal for Robots--has been for months and will continue being this way. If you want to build/play suboptimally, go right ahead. I won't stop you.

Don't separate a Datasmith from his/her children, you monster !

Daddy is going to break your legs now so you can shoot twice as many bullets!

Quick question - how do we rate the pts reduced Ironstriders now?
I'm considering using them in a Mars Brigade over Dragoons since they benefit more from being part of the Cawl-Star while being the mobile platform needed for objective grabbing.

@wulfey your mars brigade idea is an interesting one. I can just see opponents face when you tell him your a mars list and he expects a static wall and is met with a mobile force!

How do you feel a list like this would stack up against knights and eldar?

@Aranis I cannot unsee a sad datasmith getting visitation rights at the weekends for dakkabot baseball games

@mathhammer users. How do you represent neutron lasers damage d6 (1,2,3 treat as 3) do you put D9 in there?

what is everyones opinion on hoplites?

 deffrekka wrote:
what is everyones opinion on hoplites?

As long as they don't get FW Dogmas...meh.

I would rather still rely on Infiltrators to do my heavy lifting. They don't need a babysitter and make a good distraction.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 deffrekka wrote:
what is everyones opinion on hoplites?

As long as they don't get FW Dogmas...meh.

I would rather still rely on Infiltrators to do my heavy lifting. They don't need a babysitter and make a good distraction.

I was thinking more as a screen for our heavy support? 15 of them in a line, pop acquistion at all costs to get a 4++ against shooting and a 3++ in close combat, 6's throwing back a mortal wound. They are only 9pts a model and there CC output isnt too bad.

Surprised FW hasnt done a short FAQ for them to get Forgeworld access

Hopilites would last longer than electropriests or most other screens, so it may be worthy for a unit to just tie down some models, but as it stands right now I don't know how much they're worth it without dogmas. I honestly don't know why they don't have them in the first place... sure they guard titans but since titans come from forgeworlds...?

Hey, does anyone have any tactics on how to beat deathguard? They are my least favorite army to play against, and I just want to know how to compete with all the craziness they have.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
Hopilites would last longer than electropriests or most other screens, so it may be worthy for a unit to just tie down some models, but as it stands right now I don't know how much they're worth it without dogmas. I honestly don't know why they don't have them in the first place... sure they guard titans but since titans come from forgeworlds...?

Hey, does anyone have any tactics on how to beat deathguard? They are my least favorite army to play against, and I just want to know how to compete with all the craziness they have.

Well ive justed finished painting up 15 of them haha so was just wondering if anyone has used them and had any success than them. I think the only 3 dogmas that would suit them is Graia, Stygies and Mars anyway.

For fighting deathguard its all about killing there support characters. They are force multipliers in their lists. Id recommend the new cheaper 5 man double transuranic arquebus now to put pressure on those characters from the get go, new plasma kataphrons to force lot of wounds and multiple damage and the trusty neutron onagers to swat away bloat drones and plague burst crawlers.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
Hopilites would last longer than electropriests or most other screens, so it may be worthy for a unit to just tie down some models, but as it stands right now I don't know how much they're worth it without dogmas. I honestly don't know why they don't have them in the first place... sure they guard titans but since titans come from forgeworlds...?

Hey, does anyone have any tactics on how to beat deathguard? They are my least favorite army to play against, and I just want to know how to compete with all the craziness they have.

I ran 3 units of them at a tournament in nov they are pretty solid for 1pt more than vanguard. Treating them as a block of 30 with the omniscient mask they are solid


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wulfey wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
Is Grand Strategist good still? Maximum 6 CP refunded over a game, right?

Are you leaning towards 2 or 3 detachments in a pure Admech list?

What are people’s consensus on 3x battalions. Too much of a tax or with engineer reductions acceptable now?

Grand strategist is 1 per turn but no limit before T1.

Im thinking 1 to 2 if pure. If pure id go for a brigade over 2 batallions the you dont really need a 4th hq and everything else is good.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
Hopilites would last longer than electropriests or most other screens, so it may be worthy for a unit to just tie down some models, but as it stands right now I don't know how much they're worth it without dogmas. I honestly don't know why they don't have them in the first place... sure they guard titans but since titans come from forgeworlds...?

Hey, does anyone have any tactics on how to beat deathguard? They are my least favorite army to play against, and I just want to know how to compete with all the craziness they have.

They're also pretty solid running up to hold an objective and using Acquisition at Any Costs. Suddenly, they've got a 4++ invulnerable save from range, 3++ in CC and an extra attack.

U02dah4 wrote:

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
Hopilites would last longer than electropriests or most other screens, so it may be worthy for a unit to just tie down some models, but as it stands right now I don't know how much they're worth it without dogmas. I honestly don't know why they don't have them in the first place... sure they guard titans but since titans come from forgeworlds...?

Hey, does anyone have any tactics on how to beat deathguard? They are my least favorite army to play against, and I just want to know how to compete with all the craziness they have.

I ran 3 units of them at a tournament in nov they are pretty solid for 1pt more than vanguard. Treating them as a block of 30 with the omniscient mask they are solid


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wulfey wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
Is Grand Strategist good still? Maximum 6 CP refunded over a game, right?

Are you leaning towards 2 or 3 detachments in a pure Admech list?

What are people’s consensus on 3x battalions. Too much of a tax or with engineer reductions acceptable now?

Grand strategist is 1 per turn but no limit before T1.

Im thinking 1 to 2 if pure. If pure id go for a brigade over 2 batallions the you dont really need a 4th hq and everything else is good.

What armies did you use them against? Did having no dogma's bother them much? And how well did they perform? Would love to hear your input on them, as i think they could work in a pure admech build. With Acquisition at all Costs they have a 2+ 4++ against shooting and a 3++ vs combat all for 9pts and a 2CP strat.

 Ideasweasel wrote:
@mathhammer users. How do you represent neutron lasers damage d6 (1,2,3 treat as 3) do you put D9 in there?

Normal: (1+2+3+4+5+6)/6 = 3.5
Neutron: (3+3+3+4+5+6)/6 = 4

 deffrekka wrote:
what is everyones opinion on hoplites?

They're okay for popping out of Drills. Terrible as a deployed unit though. They don't have dogmas and have the usually crushing lack of movement.

 Ideasweasel wrote:
@wulfey your mars brigade idea is an interesting one. I can just see opponents face when you tell him your a mars list and he expects a static wall and is met with a mobile force!

How do you feel a list like this would stack up against knights and eldar?

@Aranis I cannot unsee a sad datasmith getting visitation rights at the weekends for dakkabot baseball games

@mathhammer users. How do you represent neutron lasers damage d6 (1,2,3 treat as 3) do you put D9 in there?

With regards to the MARS brigade + smash, when it comes to knights we can assume it will be some kind of Castellan + guard or Castellan + gallants. Neutrons are just not that great against knights, but I think they are good just because with Cawl they hit Eldar fliers more than you think and they ignore the saves of the fliers. Icarus would perform better against more targets, but when a neutron has a good target it kills its points every time it shoots. Anything without an invul is 119 point neutron bait. Overall I think the admech army struggles against T8 with a 3++/4++. I dropped the dragoons because while they are point efficient against a knight, they are slower than a knight so it is likely the knight gets the charge. A gallant that charges some dragoons kills minimum 2 bases and usually kills 3. So this is a roundabout way of saying, I still think I need smash captain just so I have some kind of way of dealing with knights. I can trade 8CP and smash to kill 1 knight guaranteed, and then hope the rest of my army puts out enough attrition and board control to win. Smash has been a consistent must have versus Eldar for a long time because he threatens their best models. Neutrons do well against eldar vehicles and rangers with omnispexes are excellent for their points against Eldar infantry.

The MARS brigade with a focus on infiltrators over dakkabots gives up the 100% kill power of the dakkabots but greatly spreads out the number of targets an eldar play has to deal with. They can't rely on DOOM + GUIDE + Harlequin Haywire to kill 660 points of models in one unit in one shooting phase. Instead, they have to deal with infiltrators coming in turn after turn and putting out wrath of mars to eliminate one unit a turn. The funny thing is that the infiltrators even have access to +1 to hit and can get to 2+ rerolling to hit outside of the cawl bubble. I think the 3x180 points of infiltrators putting out 50 shots each time from deep strike should do better against eldar overall than the dakkabots putting out 108 stronger shots if you get first turn and your opponent has bad terrain. Granted, eldar can just eliminate infiltrators that are exposed in their shooting phase. They will just get rinsed away, but ideally they did enough damage to keep you in the game. The real fear are the 3x disintegrator ravagers that can kill their points in infiltrators every shooting phase. But neutrons happen to be a good answer to ravagers (or maybe I should be running icarus ...).

My mars brigade ends up being a kind of infantry horde army that doesn't mind playing other hordes. I would have 54 rangers and 30 infiltrators. If the other guy puts down 100 boyz, 100 guardsmen, 100 daemons, 100 gaunts, 100 bloodletters, yeah, bring it on.

MARS Brigade + Smash patrol [this list is actually 2331 points pre CA2018]

Wulfey instead of smash cap and his 6 friends have you considered a lone Gallant?

Trade out 1 squad of infiltrators for servitors and boom away you go!

@suzuteo yeah so you just put ‘4’ in the damage portion of the website? Thanks

 deffrekka wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
Hopilites would last longer than electropriests or most other screens, so it may be worthy for a unit to just tie down some models, but as it stands right now I don't know how much they're worth it without dogmas. I honestly don't know why they don't have them in the first place... sure they guard titans but since titans come from forgeworlds...?

Hey, does anyone have any tactics on how to beat deathguard? They are my least favorite army to play against, and I just want to know how to compete with all the craziness they have.

I ran 3 units of them at a tournament in nov they are pretty solid for 1pt more than vanguard. Treating them as a block of 30 with the omniscient mask they are solid


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wulfey wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
Is Grand Strategist good still? Maximum 6 CP refunded over a game, right?

Are you leaning towards 2 or 3 detachments in a pure Admech list?

What are people’s consensus on 3x battalions. Too much of a tax or with engineer reductions acceptable now?

Grand strategist is 1 per turn but no limit before T1.

Im thinking 1 to 2 if pure. If pure id go for a brigade over 2 batallions the you dont really need a 4th hq and everything else is good.

What armies did you use them against? Did having no dogma's bother them much? And how well did they perform? Would love to hear your input on them, as i think they could work in a pure admech build. With Acquisition at all Costs they have a 2+ 4++ against shooting and a 3++ vs combat all for 9pts and a 2CP strat.

I used them in an infantry horde with am. They held my centre line and footslogged. I didnt use aquisition very often instead used them to take out tau/eldar/knights. 30 shots strength 6 does a lot and even 1 unit in CC did a lot of damage with the +2 to hit strat the only army they struggled against was DW

deathwatch XD arent they the weakest of the 4

 deffrekka wrote:
deathwatch XD arent they the weakest of the 4

Wewlad wait until you see the leaks of their fixes.

Deathwatch are -not- weak. Their anti-tank is medicore/bad but one of their clutch units: 10 veterans with stormbolters, 7 chainswords and 3 stormshields got even better post CA. The damage output those guys can deal is real scary. Just basic intercessors are quite powerful in DW as well, since you can splice in other primaris.

Hmmm i was all excited about buying a styrix and i’ve just noticed it’s questor imperialis not <questoris alleigance> do i actually lose that much from it not being questoris mechanicus?

Thematically i hate it; The imperium can suck it, I merely tolerate their presence lol

Octovol wrote:
Hmmm i was all excited about buying a styrix and i’ve just noticed it’s questor imperialis not <questoris alleigance> do i actually lose that much from it not being questoris mechanicus?

Thematically i hate it; The imperium can suck it, I merely tolerate their presence lol

They've updated that in the FAQ:

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/imperial_armour_index_forces_of_the_astra_militarum.pdf

Wulfey wrote:
With regards to the MARS brigade + smash, when it comes to knights we can assume it will be some kind of Castellan + guard or Castellan + gallants. Neutrons are just not that great against knights, but I think they are good just because with Cawl they hit Eldar fliers more than you think and they ignore the saves of the fliers. Icarus would perform better against more targets, but when a neutron has a good target it kills its points every time it shoots. Anything without an invul is 119 point neutron bait. Overall I think the admech army struggles against T8 with a 3++/4++. I dropped the dragoons because while they are point efficient against a knight, they are slower than a knight so it is likely the knight gets the charge. A gallant that charges some dragoons kills minimum 2 bases and usually kills 3. So this is a roundabout way of saying, I still think I need smash captain just so I have some kind of way of dealing with knights. I can trade 8CP and smash to kill 1 knight guaranteed, and then hope the rest of my army puts out enough attrition and board control to win. Smash has been a consistent must have versus Eldar for a long time because he threatens their best models. Neutrons do well against eldar vehicles and rangers with omnispexes are excellent for their points against Eldar infantry.

The MARS brigade with a focus on infiltrators over dakkabots gives up the 100% kill power of the dakkabots but greatly spreads out the number of targets an eldar play has to deal with. They can't rely on DOOM + GUIDE + Harlequin Haywire to kill 660 points of models in one unit in one shooting phase. Instead, they have to deal with infiltrators coming in turn after turn and putting out wrath of mars to eliminate one unit a turn. The funny thing is that the infiltrators even have access to +1 to hit and can get to 2+ rerolling to hit outside of the cawl bubble. I think the 3x180 points of infiltrators putting out 50 shots each time from deep strike should do better against eldar overall than the dakkabots putting out 108 stronger shots if you get first turn and your opponent has bad terrain. Granted, eldar can just eliminate infiltrators that are exposed in their shooting phase. They will just get rinsed away, but ideally they did enough damage to keep you in the game. The real fear are the 3x disintegrator ravagers that can kill their points in infiltrators every shooting phase. But neutrons happen to be a good answer to ravagers (or maybe I should be running icarus ...).

My mars brigade ends up being a kind of infantry horde army that doesn't mind playing other hordes. I would have 54 rangers and 30 infiltrators. If the other guy puts down 100 boyz, 100 guardsmen, 100 daemons, 100 gaunts, 100 bloodletters, yeah, bring it on.

MARS Brigade + Smash patrol [this list is actually 2331 points pre CA2018]

Spoiler:

MARS
Cawl + Engi + Engi
6x9 rangers with omnispex
3x10 uzi infiltrators
3x1 lascannon ballistari
3x1 neutron onagers

BLANGELS
Smash captain + 1x6 scouts

In my opinion, if you are going to do a single Brigade, you should go with a well-mixed AdMech Soup:

That or bring Custodes Shield-Captains, maybe a Vexilus Praetor for the 5++ (saves you one CP for the Kataphrons lol).

But yeah, I find that unless you are running Stygies or Graia for their dogmas, the primary value does seem to come from stratagems now.

 AlexHeap wrote:

Octovol wrote:
Hmmm i was all excited about buying a styrix and i’ve just noticed it’s questor imperialis not <questoris alleigance> do i actually lose that much from it not being questoris mechanicus?

Thematically i hate it; The imperium can suck it, I merely tolerate their presence lol

They've updated that in the FAQ:

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/imperial_armour_index_forces_of_the_astra_militarum.pdf

Awesome, thanks

This is where I'm at;

List 1



List 2 with these options



Both lists have pushback when needed. Both have multiple ways of dealing high and hard damage. Both lists have a solid number of infantry to screen/support, do damage. Thoughts?

-HulkSmash

LIST-1: I like list 1. I think the idea of a big gaggle of admech that stands and shoots is still a good idea against a lot of lists. But it will struggle against Tier 1 fast assault lists or Eldar or going second against a shooting list where you can't put your destroyers in LOS blocking terrain. I think the RYZA idea is a good one and ups the destroyers killing power enough to threaten knights (but will struggle against any army with -toHit modifiers). I would look to using 1x10 MARS infiltrators in place of the 1x6 breachers because the infiltrators can use WRATH effectively and can outfight the breachers and provide your list some flexibility on objectives and countercharging. You aren't going to be using the +1 to hit strat on the breachers. And i think the dakkabots need to be RYZA to get the other +1 to hit from the elimination volley strategem.

List2 - I am suspicious of the librarian dreadnaught. I think he is points that could be MARS infiltrators. The librarian dreadnaught is inherently unreliable due to the psychic phase. But he must make combat to get his points back yet isn't fast without that FLY spell. I also think SMASH is 124 points now because stormshield went down 5 points. So I would take (D) but with the infiltrators instead of the breachers. 50 shots with WRATH and cawl is pretty good at removing a critical unit with good invuls but not many wounds.

PiñaColada wrote:
Deathwatch are -not- weak. Their anti-tank is medicore/bad but one of their clutch units: 10 veterans with stormbolters, 7 chainswords and 3 stormshields got even better post CA. The damage output those guys can deal is real scary. Just basic intercessors are quite powerful in DW as well, since you can splice in other primaris.

The thing is, with everyone going down in points cost, marines and necrons are pretty much in the same posistion as before CA. They are still just 1 wound 3+ save models, i have fought against DW quite reguarly at my local club and ive never been that impressed with them. Yeah they can spam lots of , hurricanes, bolt storm gauntlets, special issue bolt rounds, hellblasters and assault cannons, but they still have the fundamental problems all space marine codexes have this edition.

The hardest armies i have fond that are a counter to our army is fast moving semi durable lists that can easily tie us up in melee. A shooting matchup vs us is usually in favour of Admech.

 Suzuteo wrote:

Wulfey wrote:
With regards to the MARS brigade + smash, when it comes to knights we can assume it will be some kind of Castellan + guard or Castellan + gallants. Neutrons are just not that great against knights, but I think they are good just because with Cawl they hit Eldar fliers more than you think and they ignore the saves of the fliers. Icarus would perform better against more targets, but when a neutron has a good target it kills its points every time it shoots. Anything without an invul is 119 point neutron bait. Overall I think the admech army struggles against T8 with a 3++/4++. I dropped the dragoons because while they are point efficient against a knight, they are slower than a knight so it is likely the knight gets the charge. A gallant that charges some dragoons kills minimum 2 bases and usually kills 3. So this is a roundabout way of saying, I still think I need smash captain just so I have some kind of way of dealing with knights. I can trade 8CP and smash to kill 1 knight guaranteed, and then hope the rest of my army puts out enough attrition and board control to win. Smash has been a consistent must have versus Eldar for a long time because he threatens their best models. Neutrons do well against eldar vehicles and rangers with omnispexes are excellent for their points against Eldar infantry.

The MARS brigade with a focus on infiltrators over dakkabots gives up the 100% kill power of the dakkabots but greatly spreads out the number of targets an eldar play has to deal with. They can't rely on DOOM + GUIDE + Harlequin Haywire to kill 660 points of models in one unit in one shooting phase. Instead, they have to deal with infiltrators coming in turn after turn and putting out wrath of mars to eliminate one unit a turn. The funny thing is that the infiltrators even have access to +1 to hit and can get to 2+ rerolling to hit outside of the cawl bubble. I think the 3x180 points of infiltrators putting out 50 shots each time from deep strike should do better against eldar overall than the dakkabots putting out 108 stronger shots if you get first turn and your opponent has bad terrain. Granted, eldar can just eliminate infiltrators that are exposed in their shooting phase. They will just get rinsed away, but ideally they did enough damage to keep you in the game. The real fear are the 3x disintegrator ravagers that can kill their points in infiltrators every shooting phase. But neutrons happen to be a good answer to ravagers (or maybe I should be running icarus ...).

My mars brigade ends up being a kind of infantry horde army that doesn't mind playing other hordes. I would have 54 rangers and 30 infiltrators. If the other guy puts down 100 boyz, 100 guardsmen, 100 daemons, 100 gaunts, 100 bloodletters, yeah, bring it on.

MARS Brigade + Smash patrol [this list is actually 2331 points pre CA2018]

Spoiler:

MARS
Cawl + Engi + Engi
6x9 rangers with omnispex
3x10 uzi infiltrators
3x1 lascannon ballistari
3x1 neutron onagers

BLANGELS
Smash captain + 1x6 scouts

In my opinion, if you are going to do a single Brigade, you should go with a well-mixed AdMech Soup:

Spoiler:

AdMech Soup Brigade
Servitor Maniple
1x Cawl
1x Mars Enginseer
1x Ryza Dominus

3x5 Graia Rangers
2x5 Mars Rangers with Arquebuses?
1x6 Ryza Plasmaphrons

2x10 Mars Infiltrators
1x4 Graia Servitors

1x4 Stygies or Graia Goondozer
2x2 Mars Autocannon Ballistarii

3x1 Mars Crawlers

Blood Angels SupCom
1x Smash Captain
1x Lemartes

1x10+ Death Company

That or bring Custodes Shield-Captains, maybe a Vexilus Praetor for the 5++ (saves you one CP for the Kataphrons lol).

But yeah, I find that unless you are running Stygies or Graia for their dogmas, the primary value does seem to come from stratagems now.

This lists looks brutal...