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Dragoons all the way. They have an in build -1 and will flood the enemy with S8 attacks due to exploding hits on 4+. Easily my favorite unit!

 lash92 wrote:
Dragoons all the way. They have an in build -1 and will flood the enemy with S8 attacks due to exploding hits on 4+. Easily my favorite unit!

You mean other than to buy, build and paint I assume?

Well i have 6...:p

I own four, would love to have more but I hate evrything about them up until the point they're actually on the table haha. They look amazing and play great but getting there is a chore.

Seems of the 2 Vigilus detachments, the one that may actually see some use is the Servitor one.

I'd rather chop off one of my fingers than build six chicken walkers ever again. Worst part was losing them in a fire, so that's all that hard work gone too.

I haven't lost a child but I imagine that's what it feels like.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Seems of the 2 Vigilus detachments, the one that may actually see some use is the Servitor one.

Yes the Servitor Maniple is safer and boosts more directly our main strength: ranged heavy firepower. It brings lots of durability and opens quite a lot of new options besides Mars Castle.

But I'm sure the Cohort Cybernetica is great too, just for the mobility it presents for ranged options, and that a Lucius bomb of 4+ Robots with combustors and Fists can ruin the day of most lists. Alternatively, Stygies' Infiltration is still interesting in its Beta form, as you start on the board and are not delayed to turn 2.

I made a list in the previous page that combined both detachments but we're all so eager to post lists that we don't read them all :p

0XFallen wrote:
What do you guys think of Ruststalkers right now? As they are now 14p with blades I was thinking of running a squad of 7 as a bodyguard and countercharge unit for my kastelans. What about a Dragoons? They have amazing synergy with +2 to hit, but I only own one, so I guess Ruststalkers do more pointswise although the +1 to LD might help my vanguards

Ruststalkers are still bad for the same reasons they were before we have other melee options dragoons hoplites infiltrators priests all better in their own ways

 Aaranis wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Seems of the 2 Vigilus detachments, the one that may actually see some use is the Servitor one.

Yes the Servitor Maniple is safer and boosts more directly our main strength: ranged heavy firepower. It brings lots of durability and opens quite a lot of new options besides Mars Castle.

But I'm sure the Cohort Cybernetica is great too, just for the mobility it presents for ranged options, and that a Lucius bomb of 4+ Robots with combustors and Fists can ruin the day of most lists. Alternatively, Stygies' Infiltration is still interesting in its Beta form, as you start on the board and are not delayed to turn 2.

I made a list in the previous page that combined both detachments but we're all so eager to post lists that we don't read them all :p

I like the idea of running the heavy duty kataphron destroyer builds as LUCIUS. Deepstriking them and keeping them off the board until turn 2 against some armies is huge and guarantees they get their shot off and should have LOS. A 2man robot group could also be easily used to provide another +1 to hit. I am not convinced that the AGRIPPINA servitor maniple provides enough durability to make the big kataprhon blobs actually survive going second against another shooting list. They remain just as juicy of a target as devastators/darkReapers/Lootas but have a 4+ save and cost a lot of points. I could maybe by a STYGIES kataphron gunline as viable, but then dark reapers and lootas exist that ignore STYGIES.

 lash92 wrote:
Dragoons all the way. They have an in build -1 and will flood the enemy with S8 attacks due to exploding hits on 4+. Easily my favorite unit!

Technically, S9 because of the Canticle.

PiñaColada wrote:
You mean other than to buy, build and paint I assume?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'd rather chop off one of my fingers than build six chicken walkers ever again. Worst part was losing them in a fire, so that's all that hard work gone too.

I haven't lost a child but I imagine that's what it feels like.

Yeah, I have 8, and I dread even having to build one more. Some of my early ones don't even look that great, but there's no way I am going to be able to strip them and repaint them without subassemblies. Sigh.

So can someone clarify this Doctrina Foreas Servo Skull to me? Does it allow Kastelans to change their protocol, effective immediately, so I can take shots 1a with a better save and then in my turn 1b change to double shots and fire?

Or, reading it differently, is the only effect of the relic that it can turn a tech-priest into a counts as datasmith with 9” range??

 deffrekka wrote:
For once and the first time ever, i actually agree with Tneva! Line of sight are such key things with my games. The ground floor of ruins are all blocked meaning you cant see through them and we reguarily use a huge piece of line of sight blocking terrain big enough to obscure knights and wraight knights. Well yes we arent afraid of HBC Riptides like Orkz, Tneva is right in saying that mobility is huge for the lootastar. Having Da Jump allows them to always get line of sight when they need it, you should always be moving in this game. As for objectives, from looking at the new chapter approved missions, they are already pre-placed. One in each centre of a table corner, one in the middle that gets smaller each turn, etc, etc. We wont have the luxury of placing objectives in optimal posistions to sit and castle with double tap mode.

Usually i wouldnt have bothered with many infantry and fast elements, but now more than ever we need these aspects in our lists. Double tapping isnt just a must do thing turn 1 anymore. I have a match later on tonight vs my friends kabal and coven list and i will be using a new chapter approved mission, i will let you guys know how it goes.

To be clear, I am not saying LOS and mobility are unimportant. I am saying that there comes a moment early on in every game where you can strike a blow so hard and in a place so crucial that giving up the ability to move is an easy call. Robots have a role to play, and you have to be willing to make a decision to allow them to make an impact. This is not always turn one, but it often is. Killing their Magnus, Castellan, or two Riptides turn one usually spells doom.

I actually find Lootastars to be very vulnerable without their Grots to protect them. If they do Da Jump, they are very vulnerable to return fire.

0XFallen wrote:
What do you guys think of Ruststalkers right now? As they are now 14p with blades I was thinking of running a squad of 7 as a bodyguard and countercharge unit for my kastelans. What about a Dragoons? They have amazing synergy with +2 to hit, but I only own one, so I guess Ruststalkers do more pointswise although the +1 to LD might help my vanguards

I still don't like Sicarans because no matter how cheap they are, they are useless if they don't manage to actually do anything. Infiltrators have fewer problems than Ruststalkers, but even then, I would run something else as Lucius.

Wulfey wrote:
I like the idea of running the heavy duty kataphron destroyer builds as LUCIUS. Deepstriking them and keeping them off the board until turn 2 against some armies is huge and guarantees they get their shot off and should have LOS. A 2man robot group could also be easily used to provide another +1 to hit. I am not convinced that the AGRIPPINA servitor maniple provides enough durability to make the big kataprhon blobs actually survive going second against another shooting list. They remain just as juicy of a target as devastators/darkReapers/Lootas but have a 4+ save and cost a lot of points. I could maybe by a STYGIES kataphron gunline as viable, but then dark reapers and lootas exist that ignore STYGIES.

Not sure about the 2x Robot unit. I agree that hiding them in reserves can be nice, but how are we going to get the TPD and Servitors within 6" of them? Seems to me that we're best off hiding them inside a magic bunker. They are infantry, after all. Very fat infantry...

 Therion wrote:
So can someone clarify this Doctrina Foreas Servo Skull to me? Does it allow Kastelans to change their protocol, effective immediately, so I can take shots 1a with a better save and then in my turn 1b change to double shots and fire?

Or, reading it differently, is the only effect of the relic that it can turn a tech-priest into a counts as datasmith with 9” range??

Sure. No. Yes.

 Therion wrote:
So can someone clarify this Doctrina Foreas Servo Skull to me? Does it allow Kastelans to change their protocol, effective immediately, so I can take shots 1a with a better save and then in my turn 1b change to double shots and fire?

Or, reading it differently, is the only effect of the relic that it can turn a tech-priest into a counts as datasmith with 9” range??

I think that, while RAW might be turned by some lawyer around, the RAI is clear - it is meant to increase the range and make any TPD or TPE a Datasmith effectively. So the protocl change is in effect as the Kastelan rule states - at the beginning of the next round.

 Therion wrote:
So can someone clarify this Doctrina Foreas Servo Skull to me? Does it allow Kastelans to change their protocol, effective immediately, so I can take shots 1a with a better save and then in my turn 1b change to double shots and fire?

Or, reading it differently, is the only effect of the relic that it can turn a tech-priest into a counts as datasmith with 9” range??

It allows a Dominus or Enginseer to replace the Datasmith for the protocol change, (so protocol change at beginning of your movement change, works on 2+) and it has a 3" higher range than a Datasmith has. Nothing else.
The wording isn't that great, but it will 100% be confirmed in the next FAQ, RAI is clear, and you'll have a hard time to convince anyone that the RAW meaning is different.

 Suzuteo wrote:

Usually i wouldnt have bothered with many infantry and fast elements, but now more than ever we need these aspects in our lists. Double tapping isnt just a must do thing turn 1 anymore. I have a match later on tonight vs my friends kabal and coven list and i will be using a new chapter approved mission, i will let you guys know how it goes.
To be clear, I am not saying LOS and mobility are unimportant. I am saying that there comes a moment early on in every game where you can strike a blow so hard and in a place so crucial that giving up the ability to move is an easy call. Robots have a role to play, and you have to be willing to make a decision to allow them to make an impact. This is not always turn one, but it often is. Killing their Magnus, Castellan, or two Riptides turn one usually spells doom.

The thing is that you never now what your opponent will bring and how the table will look like.

If you end up playing on a dense urban table with lots of LoS blocking (no LoS through ground floor tourney rules usually are enough to really make LoS a massive issue if present) and you play with the new CA18 deployment rules that might force you to deploy your entire army and then the other player gets to place theirs and counter the placement of your units then the usual "binaric override turn one, kill everything, done" strategy will have a hard time. Because you'll either be forced to fire your Kastelans at half (or less without the new strat) effectiveness while moving for one or two turns OR get full firepower on the first turn and then potentially deal with leaving your robots stranded without good targets or LoS. And we all know how much the full firepower of Dakkabots is needed turn 1 most of the time. Right now you can just hold back on deploying the Kastelans until you see where the other player is deploying his good stuff, in the future you won't have that luxury 50% of the time statistically speaking. And if you play the usual 4-6 Kastelan unit with Cawl support then the other player can essentially make up 40% or more of your army borderline useless on the first turn by placing his valuable units elsewhere or behind LoS blockers if he gets second deployment (and e.g. winged daemon princes and Custodes Jetbike characters can do this easily while also being able to get to you quickly).

Having a Datasmith or Dominus (or even Enginseer in a pinch) with the doctrina servo-skull allows you to e.g. do a Stygies scout move to salvage your deployment if the other player got to deploy second, then you can change into turret mode turn 1 and murder valuable targets you now see, then change back to Aegis doctrina turn two, move and fire and change back to turret mode turn 3 for the mop-up.

The other thing with Binaric Override is that if anything, literally ANYTHING with a minimum of survivability gets into close combat with your Kastelans then it's game over. They'll do pitful damage, can't fall back and can't even change to the "attack twice in CC" doctrina. Half your army effectively neutralized by something as cheap as some fast 70ish or less points fodder unit. Very fast melee armies like Custodes and DE or tyranids are a thing and methinks this massive weakness is one of the reasons why Cawlstar builds, despite their massive damage potential, have been underperforming on the international tournament scene. If you survive that first round of melee, you can at least fall back with a doctrina change and in the case of Metalica even shoot.

In the end it's the old "flexibility vs. min-maxing" debate, but to me it looks like being able to be adaptable and flexible will be much more important in the future. Especially if that flexibility can be as cheap as an already mandatory 30 point dude with an extra relic (not a big loss for Admech) or 41 point dude without one.

I really hate the way they word that battle protocol ability, I see where you're coming from now. I still feel I can make that work but I do agree that it takes a lot of the spontaneous flexibility away. I'll play around with it a bit and let people know how it goes.

I don't expect it to make too much difference, if I know I need that firepower turn 1 I can still do so, doesn't take away from that. The way I'm seeing it going down on average is

-Turn 1 have the robots prepare to be protector in turn 2, move them up to a key area and prepare to lock it down

-turn 2 take a look at the board and get a feel for what's about to happen. Expect to be charged, go ahead and swap back to aegis, if not stay in protector and just rinse/repeat.

Binharic Override becomes the emergency button, say if you get caught in a turn 1 charge or know you need it. Its still there ready to go but you no longer rely on it. Heck if there's games where you know you're just going to park turn 1 and double tap the whole game you don't even have to take the relic, you can just leave it at home and run them as normal.

-Suzuteo

Yes, Imperial Bunker(s) is plan A to make the kataphrons work. Or a skyshield landing pad that gets you the 5++ and better line of sight and some assault resistance using body blocks without having to spend CP (though you 'spend' a detachment for it). Either way, I don't think just plopping kataphrons on the board actually works against another shooting army. You need to do something that lets you have a chance against a Tau/Eldar/Knights player that goes first. Yikes would Cawl's wrath make a mess out of a kataphron list.

Tho ... in ITC ... kataphrons are INFANTRY and can really use that first floor LOS block / embarking trick.

I'm just not down to spend a whole detachment on an Imperial Bunker.

I need one each for Mechanicus, my Castellan (or maybe Styrix now?), and my Imperial Guard.

Wulfey wrote:
Tho ... in ITC ... kataphrons are INFANTRY and can really use that first floor LOS block / embarking trick.

Right, when I say Magic Bunker, I refer to the fact that since they are infantry, they can move through the walls of the first floor of ruins, and these walls are as good as solid adamantium.

 Ragnar Blackmane wrote:
The thing is that you never now what your opponent will bring and how the table will look like.

If you end up playing on a dense urban table with lots of LoS blocking (no LoS through ground floor tourney rules usually are enough to really make LoS a massive issue if present) and you play with the new CA18 deployment rules that might force you to deploy your entire army and then the other player gets to place theirs and counter the placement of your units then the usual "binaric override turn one, kill everything, done" strategy will have a hard time. Because you'll either be forced to fire your Kastelans at half (or less without the new strat) effectiveness while moving for one or two turns OR get full firepower on the first turn and then potentially deal with leaving your robots stranded without good targets or LoS. And we all know how much the full firepower of Dakkabots is needed turn 1 most of the time. Right now you can just hold back on deploying the Kastelans until you see where the other player is deploying his good stuff, in the future you won't have that luxury 50% of the time statistically speaking. And if you play the usual 4-6 Kastelan unit with Cawl support then the other player can essentially make up 40% or more of your army borderline useless on the first turn by placing his valuable units elsewhere or behind LoS blockers if he gets second deployment (and e.g. winged daemon princes and Custodes Jetbike characters can do this easily while also being able to get to you quickly).
...
The other thing with Binaric Override is that if anything, literally ANYTHING with a minimum of survivability gets into close combat with your Kastelans then it's game over. They'll do pitful damage, can't fall back and can't even change to the "attack twice in CC" doctrina. Half your army effectively neutralized by something as cheap as some fast 70ish or less points fodder unit. Very fast melee armies like Custodes and DE or tyranids are a thing and methinks this massive weakness is one of the reasons why Cawlstar builds, despite their massive damage potential, have been underperforming on the international tournament scene. If you survive that first round of melee, you can at least fall back with a doctrina change and in the case of Metalica even shoot.

In the end it's the old "flexibility vs. min-maxing" debate, but to it me the future looks like being able to be adaptable and flexible will be much more important. Especially if that flexibility can be as cheap as an already mandatory 30 point dude with an extra relic (not a big loss for Admech) or 41 point dude without one.

This has always been true. But really, I think we're missing out on the essence of the argument, which is that bringing a Datasmith is a waste of points. If you want the option to change protocols, take the Cohort relic on an Enginseer instead, but in my opinion, every time you change protocols manually, you're misplaying. The Cohort made this MORE the case, not less; you can now move and shoot every turn without a penalty; you can ADVANCE with a -1 to hit penalty. Really, Kastelans in Aegis mode are like mini-Knights with an AGC-like weapon.

Override is of paramount importance, but don't use it if it's not worth it. If I can get a shot off on Magnus, Mortarion, a Castellan, or two Riptides on turn one, you bet I am going to get into the best position possible for area denial, Override, and shoot them dead. Sure beats waiting for them to shoot me.

Honestly, if anyone is struggling to protect their Robots, bring more infantry. My lists have 2x5 Rangers and 4x10 Catachans, and I still think this is light. I am thinking 5x5 Rangers and 4x10 Catachans at this point. Also, if something does get stuck in with your Robots, it's not as if you can't use them ever again. Counter-chargers and Heroic Intervention can reduce your Robots stuck time to one turn.

Can you use stratagems on units embarked in a building?

 axisofentropy wrote:
Can you use stratagems on units embarked in a building?

You can use stratagems that affect units that are shooting in the Shooting Phase, I believe.

1CP - PLASMA SPECIALISTS
Ryza Stratagem
Use this Stratagem before a RYZA unit from your army attacks in the Shooting phase. Add 1 to the wound rolls made for all of that unit’s plasma weapons and increase the damage inflicted by any plasma weapon by 1. For the purposes of this Stratagem, a plasma weapon is any weapon profile whose name includes the word ‘plasma’ (e.g. plasma cannon, plasma caliver, plasma culverin).

Note the phrasing. Most stratagems of this sort do not "target" (for lack of a better word) embarked units. They simply can be used when a condition is triggered. In this case, when a unit shoots. Bunkers allow embarked units to shoot. Thus, embarked units can trigger the conditions to use this stratagem.

So here is what I am toying with right now based on my initial read of CA.

MARS battalion [cohort cybernetica]
Cawl
Enginseer
1x6 Dakkabots
1x10 infiltrators
2x1 Neutron Onagers (+2 hit strat makes these good AA)
2x7 rangers
1x7 vanguard

STYGIES aux
1x5 dragoons [screen for robots, draw fire]

CADIA battalion
1x Creed (Grand Strat WLT, +2CP if WL)
1x Commander (kurovs i guess)
3x10 guards

This gives me enough CP to wrath of mars every turn. I think the infiltrators are now starting to get good at 18 points a piece. They provide me something else to put WRATH onto if the robots are in trouble or can't get into position.

I think we will be seeing a lot more CREED battalions in the future. Why spend 180 points for 5CP when you can spend 205 for 7CP!

EDIT: I reworked the above, I don't that many CP. Rather have a few more guys and flexibility in cohort Relic.

Wulfey wrote:
So here is what I am toying with right now based on my initial read of CA.

MARS battalion [cohort cybernetica]
Cawl
Enginseer
1x6 Dakkabots
1x10 infiltrators
2x1 Neutron Onagers (+2 hit strat makes these good AA)
2x7 rangers
1x7 vanguard

STYGIES aux
1x5 dragoons [screen for robots, draw fire]

CADIA battalion
1x Creed (Grand Strat WLT, +2CP if WL)
1x Commander (kurovs i guess)
3x10 guards

This gives me enough CP to wrath of mars every turn. I think the infiltrators are now starting to get good at 18 points a piece. They provide me something else to put WRATH onto if the robots are in trouble or can't get into position.

I think we will be seeing a lot more CREED battalions in the future. Why spend 180 points for 5CP when you can spend 205 for 7CP!

EDIT: I reworked the above, I don't that many CP. Rather have a few more guys and flexibility in cohort Relic.

Looks alright, maybe too many chickens. I'd also take one Icarus Crawler, so your actual Neutron Crabs can focus on busting tanks while the Icarus crab gets a native 2+ to hit against most flying units without you having to use Protector Doctrina on it.
Creed is a Cadian named character, so he has to take the Superior Tactical Training warlord trait. It's a great trait, but pretty wasted on only 3 naked infantry squads, it shines when you got 4-5 decked out units including special weapons, heavy weapon teams and heavy weapon squads.
But I assume you are only taking the guard detachement for soup CP farming, so... yeah. Creed could do some serious work for you, but you'd have to put some more points into it than the minimum amount.

Lol nvm at creed. Yeah that is much worse than grand strategist. Looks like I got another 25 points.

EDIT: the weapons on the skitarii foot troops are a lot cheaper now and they have me thinking about really maximizing the power of Cawl's aura. 15 point arquebuses are pretty good when you are getting full rerolls to hit. There are a lot of character spam lists that assume that no one ever has 6 of those things. The 11 point plasma calivers are super efficient if you have the aura and the target is in range. But the range is pretty sad. The 30 point enginseer really makes double battalion admech play into something viable.

Is Grand Strategist good still? Maximum 6 CP refunded over a game, right?

 ph34r wrote:
Is Grand Strategist good still? Maximum 6 CP refunded over a game, right?

Not sure really. Monitor Malevelos is almost as good. The admech price buffs actually have me looking at running an actual 100% admech list at LVO. I would be running Cawl + 1x6 dakkabots as the core, with other admech grafted on as necessary. I still think bots and cawl are the way to go. But damn if those infantry aren't efficient now. I need to go look at that facebook spreadsheet again to see how the plasma calivers are doing now.

Problem with Calivers is that you have to run them Lucius. That or bring a ton of Drills...

Why not bring Kataphrons? Too worried about durability?

 Suzuteo wrote:
Problem with Calivers is that you have to run them Lucius. That or bring a ton of Drills...

Why not bring Kataphrons? Too worried about durability?

I have them sitting on the shelf, but they still cost either 48 for plasma or 51 for grav assuming the phosphor blaster. A neutron with 2x stubber is now 119. Kataphrons are now for sure more damage than dakkabots point for point. But it all comes down to their terrible saves and how good of a shooting target they are. Even with AGRIPINNA and the servitor farm, you can lose kataphrons to stray mortar fire. Their saves are bad on a very pricey unit that can't natively deepstrike and instantly dies in combat. A RAVEN castellan could kill an easy 5 bases with Cawls wrath, 2 from the volcano lance, 1.5 from the shoulder guns, and 1 from the shieldbreaker missile. I haven't run the mathhammer yet but my instinct says that the castellan could kill 8 bases or 400 points a turn. 600 points of plasmaphrons should take 12-14 wounds off of a castellan. But then it still shoots at full strength and strips bases off the board every time you fail a 5++ (assuming the detachment).

How do you think kataphrons should be run? I can't figure it out.

 Suzuteo wrote:
Unless I am fighting a horde, I would never anchor on a table edge. I also would never intentionally place objectives in an asymmetrical fashion like that. I actually would try to place them in as accessible and visible a place as possible.

Also ironic is that the quote on the Riptide page is almost literally what I said before: "Launch an ambush not to slay, but rather to seize the initiative and thereby win the war." The key is board control, not just mindlessly killing things.

And opponent is unlikely to deploy his objectives so that you can easily see them. Add to that terrain and the fact you have to put 12" gap from those and again: If you put your bots into immobile you would be lucky to see more than 2 objectives. Or maybe you see them but enemy can get within 3" and still be out of LOS.

So your immobile bots are guarding 1, maybe 2 objectives and opponent can use LOS blockers to deal with rest of army. If all are around bots...Well then neither is killing anything unless he wants to open action while he controls 4-5 objectives. Good luck.

Precisely because game isn't about mindlessly killing things being immobile is bad. If it was just mindlessly killing things sure lock up, shoot and mindlessly kill things with your immobile bots. Others meanwhile move and control objectives.

 lash92 wrote:
Dragoons all the way. They have an in build -1 and will flood the enemy with S8 attacks due to exploding hits on 4+. Easily my favorite unit!

Yeah I second the chicken love. I even enjoy them in my mars lists.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wulfey wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
Is Grand Strategist good still? Maximum 6 CP refunded over a game, right?

Not sure really. Monitor Malevelos is almost as good. The admech price buffs actually have me looking at running an actual 100% admech list at LVO. I would be running Cawl + 1x6 dakkabots as the core, with other admech grafted on as necessary. I still think bots and cawl are the way to go. But damn if those infantry aren't efficient now. I need to go look at that facebook spreadsheet again to see how the plasma calivers are doing now.

Are you leaning towards 2 or 3 detachments in a pure Admech list?

What are people’s consensus on 3x battalions. Too much of a tax or with engineer reductions acceptable now?

I think two Battalions is comfortable enough to fit it most combos, if thinking smaller three could work too. Thing is, if you want to run Servitor Maniple or Cohort Cybernetica you'll want your detachment filled with either Kataphrons or Robots and that costs points. You could definitely use 15 CP base though, these detachments and the other stratagems to make them work are pricey. Your third Battalion would mostly consist of 3x5 Rangers and a Dominus + Enginseer, or even 2 Enginseer depending on points left. Just be sure that your Enginseer are the same FW that of your vehicles so that they're still useful.

I wonder if you guys are counting Enhanced Bionics in your calculations or not for the Kataphrons' survivability. 1 CP to give them a 5++ forever is cheap, and couple with Agripinaa your opponent HAVE to destroy it all in a single turn or you're bringing them all back next turn, which will have wasted his shooting phase. Maybe I'm too naive and/or not experienced enough with the meta but ignoring 2/6 instead of 1/6 of wounds received is huge.