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Hey, everyone. New registration to Dakka, but long-time lurker here.

I'm not a huge Imperium guy. I've got a fair bit of knowledge -- all the basics, I think, but I've always been a xenos lore fan and player.

Since the release of the new Dark Angels codex, a very close friend of mine has returned to the hobby -- old Dark Angels player from 2nd / beginning of 3rd edition.

Anyway. Since that time, my circle of friends has really started to embrace the narrative element of our campaigns and even most of our casual gameplay. At this point, you can probably start to see where this is going ...

I play Eldar. Specifically, I play a homebrew Craftworld that is primarily (exclusively?) focused on contending with Chaos, to such an extent that they are quite willing to cooperate with Imperium forces, or at the very least militarily "back" their efforts from a safe distance so long as everyone's bolters, lasguns, and shuricats wind up pointing in the general direction of the Eye of Terror. Most of the available opponents in our area are CSM, Daemons, and Necrons. Obviously, this promotes the question of how exactly DAs would navigate this treacherous landscape with respect to other factions / races.

I've always known that the Dark Angels are supposed to be one of the "most xenophobic" chapters out there. What I'm really curious about is where, exactly, this is written / fleshed out in their story? I can certainly see the potential motive for it -- they would presumably be somewhat paranoid about any perceived "unusual behavior" given what they are already contending with. Despite that, however, one would also assume that their primary concern is in finding / confessing / executing the Fallen, rather than running around persecuting xenos. Add to that the questionable relationship and identity of the Watchers in the Dark, who they apparently readily accept the presence of. Despite everyone saying so, I can't really find very much evidence of significant bad blood between the Dark Angels and any particular xenos race -- certainly nothing comparable to Smurfs <---> Tyranids or the like.

So where does the evidence of this xenophobia come from, exactly? I'm legitimately curious to know sources not because I'm questioning its validity, but rather because I wish to further educate myself on the subject.

Any help is appreciated so that I might further my ability to make an educated guess as to what's going to happen when a couple squads of Deathwing see Fire Prisms and Jetbikes shooting at that huge zerg of CSMs.

Well, more or less all of the Imperium is taught to be rather Xenofobic (Ordo Xenos of the Inquisition: "Suffer not the alien to live") more than not.

Anyhow, the Empire itself recognise that there is evil and Evil and it accept the antic "The enemy of my enemy is my (albeit temporary) ally", so they may consort with some 'lesser enemies' to vanquish a greater menace.

Merging fluff and rules, to answer the question:

Carresuith wrote: what's going to happen when a couple squads of Deathwing see Fire Prisms and Jetbikes shooting at that huge zerg of CSMs.

DA have CSM as preferred enemy (Inner Circle, DA Codex, page 28)
DA may have Xenos as allies of convenience (Eldar and Tau, as well as GK) or even desperate allies (necrons (1) and orkz)
DA never, ever consort with CSM, Daemons, DE, nor 'nyds.

So, to get to the point:
If a Deathwing squad sees Jetbikes and Fire Prisms sending a volley of fire against CSMs, they'll probably join fire and then assault the Chaos in cc, to search for fallen and capture them (and to eliminate some traitors, on the way).

-----

(1) I admit that I do not get this. Necrons imo should not be eligible for/with imperial armies... at least, fluffwise: orks are less dangerous (in a way), so an instant alliance may have a raison d'etre - since the imperials think they can contain the green menace. But necrons are ruthless, cold, hyperdisciplined, T800 living things... As I just said, I don't get that.

Hey. Thanks for the reply.

That is more or less the assumption that I have operated on. Obviously, we can cite numerous examples of the Imperium being able to at least sort out the fact that there are greater threats than others. The most relevant of these examples would arguably be the heavy participation of Ulthwe' in the 13th Black Crusade. And I agree with respect to "translating" the fluff through the lens of the rules / mechanics (at least, in this example).

My primary reason for asking is that there are definitely some pairings in the Allies matrix that don't really make a whole hell of a lot of sense, and so I would hate to make my arguments based solely (or even primarily) on that foundation. But it is absolutely true that the Dark Angels can take the Eldar (as well as the Tau) as Allies of Convenience. One might have expected that the Black Templars would only be able to take Tau and Eldar as Desperate Allies in the same vein as the Sisters of Battle, as an example. And I also agree with your point regarding the Necrons, who I feel would probably fall into the Come the Apocalypse category along with the Tyranids to most "living" things in the universe.

So again, I would ask of those who claim that the Dark Angels xenophobia is somehow "more" exceptional than most other chapters -- why, exactly, are the Dark Angels "more" xenophobic than (merely as an example) the Ultramarines? Are there actually any points that can be made to substantiate that the Dark Angels "stand out" even among their generally xenophobic peers as being "highly" prejudice against anything alien? More so than any other Space Marine?

At this point, the only things that seem easy to establish are:

The Allies Matrix does not support the argument that they are any "more" xenophobic than any other chapter.

The Watchers in the Dark are almost explicitly stated to be xenos, and obviously have a close relationship with the DAs.

There are some theories that suggest the Watchers are (or were) part of the Cabal, which also includes other xenos races.

The Dark Angels are extremely aligned against Chaos, perhaps even more fervently than some of their brother chapters.

The obvious "mission statement" of the DAs is to hunt the fallen ... not to run around bashing in alien skulls.

Unless I am really missing something here, I can't imagine that they would have any more (or less) difficulty temporarily buddying up with aliens against the more menacing threats of the universe, although I have seen people claim that this is insane to suggest.

Carresuith wrote:


My primary reason for asking is that there are definitely some pairings in the Allies matrix that don't really make a whole hell of a lot of sense, and so I would hate to make my arguments based solely (or even primarily) on that foundation. But it is absolutely true that the Dark Angels can take the Eldar (as well as the Tau) as Allies of Convenience. One might have expected that the Black Templars would only be able to take Tau and Eldar as Desperate Allies in the same vein as the Sisters of Battle, as an example. And I also agree with your point regarding the Necrons, who I feel would probably fall into the Come the Apocalypse category along with the Tyranids to most "living" things in the universe.

Allies matrix doesn't fit with established fluff ...but maybe it will in 6th...??
Now, making sense and GW often does not compute...

But to your main point: why Dark Angels were considered one of the most xenophobic chapters around? IIRC they had limits even with Imperial Allies back in the day of 2nd? 3rd ed? and couldn't team up with IG if ab-humans are part of said IG force. ( like Ogryns, ratlings..) So old fluff stated the DA wouldn't get along with some servants of the Throne because of what those are. Haven't seen this in the new dex. Most likely gone now and all that matters is their hate for the traitors.

I for one, can't see a reason to have non-Imperial armies as close allies at all for marines since it seems a bit weird they wouldn't prefer every team member is loyal to the Emperor first. Sure some of the less backstabbing xenos as temporary alllies is ok.

The change from T800 to tomb kings in spase is what moved the necrons out of their corner and shifted them towards a possible ally if you can live with one who is a bit cold and rather undead... At the end of 5th ed the fluff had necrons talking to humans and the new found dislike of them towards nids,orks , Eldar and chaos is enough to forge a tremporary re-targetting and some temporarily changed firing solutions...
still temporary is the important bit IMO

I think the philosophy is best summed up as "The enemy of my enemy is certainly not my friend, but is a target for another day".

But to your main point: why Dark Angels were considered one of the most xenophobic chapters around? IIRC they had limits even with Imperial Allies back in the day of 2nd? 3rd ed? and couldn't team up with IG if ab-humans are part of said IG force. ( like Ogryns, ratlings..) So old fluff stated the DA wouldn't get along with some servants of the Throne because of what those are. Haven't seen this in the new dex. Most likely gone now and all that matters is their hate for the traitors.

I recall that now that you mention it. I believe the Dark Angels at one point in time even had a special rule called "Trust No One," if I recall? It has been a long, long time for me ... but I seem to recall something about the motivation behind it being their desire to maintain their secrecy.

As for the Imperial allies thing, I cannot remember where I read it, but I have very vague memories of reading something about a group of DAs fighting their way over to an IG force and, upon finding Ogryn in the unit, they simply abandoned them. If anyone has a source on where that comes from, that'd be fantastic. I'm totally drawing a blank right now.

I for one, can't see a reason to have non-Imperial armies as close allies at all for marines since it seems a bit weird they wouldn't prefer every team member is loyal to the Emperor first. Sure some of the less backstabbing xenos as temporary alllies is ok.

That's really all I'm talking about, here. For the most part, we organize our campaigns and casual games here around the "current" setting as much as possible -- i.e., Abaddon is beating everyone's face in around the Eye of Terror. Chaos mobilizing in huge ways with obvious plans to bring about "The End." As such, I have always assumed that that is sufficient motivation to make bedfellows of questionable groups, however temporary they may ultimately prove to be -- even among Imperials, who I would argue are definitely not fairing "well" around Cadia, etc. right now.

Now that we have more Dark Angels players showing up to participate, the question arose as to whether or not they are quite as "militant" in their xenophobia as has been claimed before. I think you're probably correct in your belief that it has been intentionally toned down / retconned for the 6th ed codex, as it seems devoid of anything more than "we hate the Fallen, and we hate the CSMs."

I think the philosophy is best summed up as "The enemy of my enemy is certainly not my friend, but is a target for another day".

Pretty much how I view it. I've just seen some in the past suggest that when it comes to Dark Angels, logic goes out the window. But it seems many see it the same way I do, so that's reassuring.

Carresuith wrote:
Hey, everyone. New registration to Dakka, but long-time lurker here.

I'm not a huge Imperium guy. I've got a fair bit of knowledge -- all the basics, I think, but I've always been a xenos lore fan and player.

Since the release of the new Dark Angels codex, a very close friend of mine has returned to the hobby -- old Dark Angels player from 2nd / beginning of 3rd edition.

Anyway. Since that time, my circle of friends has really started to embrace the narrative element of our campaigns and even most of our casual gameplay. At this point, you can probably start to see where this is going ...

I play Eldar. Specifically, I play a homebrew Craftworld that is primarily (exclusively?) focused on contending with Chaos, to such an extent that they are quite willing to cooperate with Imperium forces, or at the very least militarily "back" their efforts from a safe distance so long as everyone's bolters, lasguns, and shuricats wind up pointing in the general direction of the Eye of Terror. Most of the available opponents in our area are CSM, Daemons, and Necrons. Obviously, this promotes the question of how exactly DAs would navigate this treacherous landscape with respect to other factions / races.

I've always known that the Dark Angels are supposed to be one of the "most xenophobic" chapters out there. What I'm really curious about is where, exactly, this is written / fleshed out in their story? I can certainly see the potential motive for it -- they would presumably be somewhat paranoid about any perceived "unusual behavior" given what they are already contending with. Despite that, however, one would also assume that their primary concern is in finding / confessing / executing the Fallen, rather than running around persecuting xenos. Add to that the questionable relationship and identity of the Watchers in the Dark, who they apparently readily accept the presence of. Despite everyone saying so, I can't really find very much evidence of significant bad blood between the Dark Angels and any particular xenos race -- certainly nothing comparable to Smurfs <---> Tyranids or the like.

So where does the evidence of this xenophobia come from, exactly? I'm legitimately curious to know sources not because I'm questioning its validity, but rather because I wish to further educate myself on the subject.

Any help is appreciated so that I might further my ability to make an educated guess as to what's going to happen when a couple squads of Deathwing see Fire Prisms and Jetbikes shooting at that huge zerg of CSMs.

A thing to remember about the DA is that they are a shamed chapter. Half their number fell to Chaos, a fact they hide at all costs. Outside the chapter only the emperor know the extent of the treason.
The DA seek to hide this fact forever by hunting down every last trace of their fall to chaos. That means capturing all the fallen, interrogating them, finding their friends and anyone who knows about them and eventually killing them. While this is going on, for the past 10,000 years, the DA have been not answering their phone when the inquisition calls. If the ][nquisition found out what had happened all those years ago they might destroy the DA or at least limit their freedom to run about acting as they want.

With this in mind, the DA are not going to do anything that might draw the attention of the ][nquisition. That means no lasting relationships. While an Ultrasmurf chapter might meet some friendly CWE and team up to pacify a region of orks, nids, crons, or chaos, the DA would probably only team up on a one time basis. Lets take this Traitor Stronghold, and then we are done. If you happen to see us carting off a few of the black armored traitors in cages, we will probably have to kill you. Sorry, we just cant have you going around telling the galaxy that you saw a traitor DA it might get around the the ][nquisition, so sorry you gotta die.

A thing to remember about the DA is that they are a shamed chapter. Half their number fell to Chaos, a fact they hide at all costs. Outside the chapter only the emperor know the extent of the treason.
The DA seek to hide this fact forever by hunting down every last trace of their fall to chaos. That means capturing all the fallen, interrogating them, finding their friends and anyone who knows about them and eventually killing them. While this is going on, for the past 10,000 years, the DA have been not answering their phone when the inquisition calls. If the ][nquisition found out what had happened all those years ago they might destroy the DA or at least limit their freedom to run about acting as they want.

That's pretty much how I read them.

If you happen to see us carting off a few of the black armored traitors in cages, we will probably have to kill you. Sorry, we just cant have you going around telling the galaxy that you saw a traitor DA it might get around the the ][nquisition, so sorry you gotta die.

I am familiar with the Ophidium Gulf incident in which it is more or less implied that the DA's wiped out an entire BT strike cruiser over the BTs making contact with a Fallen. Are there any known examples of this "kind" of interaction occurring with a Xenos faction, or extreme examples involving other Imperium groups?

I had always wondered whether or not they would be quite as psychotic about the secrecy with respect to Xenos factions. While I realize that might sound odd at first, the reason I ask is that it would seem to me that there would be "less" risk in having an alien possess that knowledge than a fellow member of the "Big Brother Is ALWAYS Watching" Imperium. Now, I'm also perfectly willing to accept that the DAs are pretty crazy when it comes to this subject, so I could just as well accept that their "Zero Tolerance" of leaks would lead to exterminating absolutely anything that learns the truth.

But then ... the Watchers certainly know, don't they?

Mind you, I'm not challenging your perspective ... just trying to open up the discourse to hypothetical scenarios. One idea that I had toyed with for bringing the DAs into our campaign stories was the possibility of the Eldar being at least "somewhat" aware of what was going on -- perhaps not the deepest, darkest details, but at the very least being cognizant of the fact that these green-colored and bone-colored Mon-keigh really like finding those black-armored Mon-keigh. Eldar are already well-documented as being a fairly "meddlesome" race ... they twist the skein of fate to their benefit, given that they no longer have the ability to martial the military power necessary to win in the largest battles that the 41st millennium offers.

So as a purely hypothetical scenario, what do you think would happen if the DAs started receiving "anonymous tips" about the location of Fallen Angels? If the Eldar became aware of the fact that they could essentially "steer" the DAs into doing what they want (albeit, only if a Fallen Angel were present among whatever it is they want dead) ... I could see them exploiting that knowledge. I would think that a seer council might be able to divine the presence of particularly well-hidden Fallen rather effectively by divining the strands of fate.

Do you think a scenario like this could ever possibly transpire? If it did, do you think it could ever evolve beyond cloak-and-dagger "tips"? I could theoretically imagine the very same zeal that the DAs possess working in the opposite direction if they felt there was a resource available that could give them what they most desire in the universe.

Carresuith wrote:

A thing to remember about the DA is that they are a shamed chapter. Half their number fell to Chaos, a fact they hide at all costs. Outside the chapter only the emperor know the extent of the treason.
The DA seek to hide this fact forever by hunting down every last trace of their fall to chaos. That means capturing all the fallen, interrogating them, finding their friends and anyone who knows about them and eventually killing them. While this is going on, for the past 10,000 years, the DA have been not answering their phone when the inquisition calls. If the ][nquisition found out what had happened all those years ago they might destroy the DA or at least limit their freedom to run about acting as they want.

That's pretty much how I read them.

If you happen to see us carting off a few of the black armored traitors in cages, we will probably have to kill you. Sorry, we just cant have you going around telling the galaxy that you saw a traitor DA it might get around the the ][nquisition, so sorry you gotta die.

I am familiar with the Ophidium Gulf incident in which it is more or less implied that the DA's wiped out an entire BT strike cruiser over the BTs making contact with a Fallen. Are there any known examples of this "kind" of interaction occurring with a Xenos faction, or extreme examples involving other Imperium groups?

I had always wondered whether or not they would be quite as psychotic about the secrecy with respect to Xenos factions. While I realize that might sound odd at first, the reason I ask is that it would seem to me that there would be "less" risk in having an alien possess that knowledge than a fellow member of the "Big Brother Is ALWAYS Watching" Imperium. Now, I'm also perfectly willing to accept that the DAs are pretty crazy when it comes to this subject, so I could just as well accept that their "Zero Tolerance" of leaks would lead to exterminating absolutely anything that learns the truth.

But then ... the Watchers certainly know, don't they?

Mind you, I'm not challenging your perspective ... just trying to open up the discourse to hypothetical scenarios. One idea that I had toyed with for bringing the DAs into our campaign stories was the possibility of the Eldar being at least "somewhat" aware of what was going on -- perhaps not the deepest, darkest details, but at the very least being cognizant of the fact that these green-colored and bone-colored Mon-keigh really like finding those black-armored Mon-keigh. Eldar are already well-documented as being a fairly "meddlesome" race ... they twist the skein of fate to their benefit, given that they no longer have the ability to martial the military power necessary to win in the largest battles that the 41st millennium offers.

So as a purely hypothetical scenario, what do you think would happen if the DAs started receiving "anonymous tips" about the location of Fallen Angels? If the Eldar became aware of the fact that they could essentially "steer" the DAs into doing what they want (albeit, only if a Fallen Angel were present among whatever it is they want dead) ... I could see them exploiting that knowledge. I would think that a seer council might be able to divine the presence of particularly well-hidden Fallen rather effectively by divining the strands of fate.

Do you think a scenario like this could ever possibly transpire? If it did, do you think it could ever evolve beyond cloak-and-dagger "tips"? I could theoretically imagine the very same zeal that the DAs possess working in the opposite direction if they felt there was a resource available that could give them what they most desire in the universe.

Yes I could see this but only if the Eldar planted the knowledge in places where their presence wasn't obvious. If you read the DA book they have fought the Eldar on several occasions. Also the Watchers are something Warp based that always existed on Caliban not a xenos.

Yes I could see this but only if the Eldar planted the knowledge in places where their presence wasn't obvious. If you read the DA book they have fought the Eldar on several occasions. Also the Watchers are something Warp based that always existed on Caliban not a xenos.

I have seen claims of that regarding the Watchers. Without trying to completely derail the thread, where does your interpretation of them as such arise from?

As for the other part, that is pretty much exactly what I was thinking. I don't think the Eldar would be stupid enough to fly up to the Rock and drop off the latest news, and they are certainly not lacking in their capacity for subtlety. I had imagined them finding a way to drop the breadcrumbs without directly revealing where (or from whom) they were coming. As far as specific ideas, I had considered things like firing encrypted narrow-band transmissions directly at the Rock from a significant distance away, leaving physical documentation to be found, or possibly even using the Watchers as the delivery point.

I have wondered how the DAs would react when they notice that following these tips always seems to coincide with strange sightings of the same Xenos in the same colors with the same equipment almost all the time. I imagine from my interpretation of their psychology that they wouldn't much care as long as they were getting what they wanted. Though I am sure there would be a lingering, burning question in their minds as to exactly how much "they" know after a while.

The "xenophobic" tag goes along with this phrase well "We are the First Legion, we do not know defeat". During the Crusade the first army big E lead was the Dark Angels, so we've always been the first and the first enemies that big E had to deal with were the xenos who had taken over nearby human colonies. There's a lot of pride that goes into that, the Ultramarines may be the poster children, but they'll never be the First Legion. I keep saying Legion because with the added fluff of the new codex we still operate as a Legion and the Legions were formed to retake the galaxy for humanity. The other Astartes may bend their knees to the HLoT, but the First Legion will remain. "Xenophobic" is actually the perfect term for the Dark Angels because they trust no one that is not a Dark Angel of successor, be they human, SM, xenos, or even Inquisitor (not only have we nuked a BT Strike Cruiser, but we also disappeared an Inquisitor who was making noise about finding out a big secret) Should the DA find all of the Fallen and/or the Lion returns there's a decent chance that you'd have a fight between the Ministorium and the DA, since Lion knows that Dad isn't a god.

During the Eye of Terror campaign many years ago we picked up a beef with the Dark Eldar, the details escape me, but I want to say it has something to do with the Voice of the Emperor. The fluffy updates from that campaign are floating around the interwebs, but it's been a while since I've read them.

Carresuith wrote:

A thing to remember about the DA is that they are a shamed chapter. Half their number fell to Chaos, a fact they hide at all costs. Outside the chapter only the emperor know the extent of the treason.
The DA seek to hide this fact forever by hunting down every last trace of their fall to chaos. That means capturing all the fallen, interrogating them, finding their friends and anyone who knows about them and eventually killing them. While this is going on, for the past 10,000 years, the DA have been not answering their phone when the inquisition calls. If the ][nquisition found out what had happened all those years ago they might destroy the DA or at least limit their freedom to run about acting as they want.

That's pretty much how I read them.

If you happen to see us carting off a few of the black armored traitors in cages, we will probably have to kill you. Sorry, we just cant have you going around telling the galaxy that you saw a traitor DA it might get around the the ][nquisition, so sorry you gotta die.

I am familiar with the Ophidium Gulf incident in which it is more or less implied that the DA's wiped out an entire BT strike cruiser over the BTs making contact with a Fallen. Are there any known examples of this "kind" of interaction occurring with a Xenos faction, or extreme examples involving other Imperium groups?

I had always wondered whether or not they would be quite as psychotic about the secrecy with respect to Xenos factions. While I realize that might sound odd at first, the reason I ask is that it would seem to me that there would be "less" risk in having an alien possess that knowledge than a fellow member of the "Big Brother Is ALWAYS Watching" Imperium. Now, I'm also perfectly willing to accept that the DAs are pretty crazy when it comes to this subject, so I could just as well accept that their "Zero Tolerance" of leaks would lead to exterminating absolutely anything that learns the truth.

The issue is that getting close to any Xenos, like eldar or tau, they are going to draw the attention of the anti Xeno ][nquisition, and once they start getting investigated the game is up.

Now if those Xenos, for some reason had intimate knowledge of some of the fallen, I could see the DA being very very interested in working with them or enslaving them for specific knowledge. The problem is that once those fallen were located, the xenos would probably be executed. I cant see eldar getting into such an arrangement because; 1 they arent likely to have much knowledge of the fallen and 2 they would see their liquidation at the end of it coming.

 Exergy wrote:

A thing to remember about the DA is that they are a shamed chapter. Half their number fell to Chaos, a fact they hide at all costs. Outside the chapter only the emperor know the extent of the treason.

They didn't fall to chaos, they realized that the imperium was using up their world and destroying their identity, so they split off. Just because someone does not agree with the emperor, it does not mean they are automatically chaos minions.

I will grant you that some of them went to the chaos route, but it was unintentional - they were mostly looking for a way to protect themselves against imperial forces, and spells seemed like a good idea at the time.

The allies matrix is.utterly wrong in regards to dark angel fluff, dark angels will never ally with.xenos, ever, they are one of the largest contributors to the deathwatch, they also will not.fight with abhumans, they are Puritans and will abandon allies if they have abhumans with them.

The Allies Matrix has a lot of strange combinations in it. /shrug

Some can be explained. Others cannot so easily.


The old school fluff from 2nd Edition's Codex: Angels of Death (BA/DA) made mention of the Dark Angels being xenophobic, and to the point where they didn't like abhumans in the Imperial Guard.

However, it may be a part of the fluff that has slowly but surely faded out of the more recent fluff. After all, they want you to buy allies.