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As far as army-wide special rules go, I'm of the opinion that Resurrection Protocol (RP) and And They Shall Know No Fear (ATSKNF) are pretty much tops when it comes to usefulness. One gives you what basically amounts to a bonus save, while the other gives you fearless, but without the negatives of fearless.

But, recently, a friend of mine and I have been arguing about which is more potent. He, of course, plays Necrons, and is of the opinion that RP is less useful than ATSKNF. I play Tau, and I'm of the opinion that they're roughly equal in potency. (Though, RP is more annoying to play against, as I've never found anything to be quite as frustrating as putting a rail-slug into an Overlord, only for the damn thing to stand back up.)

So, what do you all think? Is my friend right, and is ATSKNF the end-all army-wide special rule? Or am I right, and the two are equally annoying to field against? Or, maybe, is RP more potent?

I think that And They Shall Know No Fear is better. I play Marines, and I play against Necrons frequently.

I also think that RP is less useful (on the whole) than We'll Be Back was.

 Jimsolo wrote:
I think that And They Shall Know No Fear is better. I play Marines, and I play against Necrons frequently.

I also think that RP is less useful (on the whole) than We'll Be Back was.

Okay... why? I'm not being argumentative, I just would really like to know Why you think that, in detail. Is it a matter of experience, or is there some mechanical reasoning behind it?

Apples and oranges.

 Giganthrax wrote:
Apples and oranges.

Yes, they are quite different. However, ultimately, what I'm asking is, if both of these rules were upgrades, which would cost more, and why? Or would they both cost the same, and why?

I have swept a unit of 20 necron warriors and attached cryptek and lord after he charged 4 scouts devi squad with sang priest and libby and tac squad, thats over 40 attacks from just the warriors versus 19 attacks back, beat them in combat then swept them and managed to cover enough area to stop RP, the amount of times I have lost combat and been caught so they havent been wiped out is a lot. ATSKNF over RP any day of the week

From my perspective, I've played against Necrons more than Marines, but generally RP is a bigger pain to overcome.

As a Tau player, if my opponent gets into melee, I'm basically dead anyway. ATSKNF isn't as useful at range, where as RP is equally useful at both range and melee, if not slightly more so at range.

So, the way I see it, since ATSKNF is a rule that is somewhat helpful at range, but very helpful in melee (not always, as you can go an entire battle without taking advantage of it once) and RP is a rule that is somewhat helpful in melee, but very helpful at range, they're roughly equal.

I think it depends of the situation. Shooty armies going at it, RP is way better. Enemy shoots me, I shoot him, his troops die, mine have a chance to get back up and shoot some more.

If I'm against an heavy CC army, RP is pretty much useless. Necrons warriors and immortals are tough, but the I2 is a killer and only 1 attack each guarantees they will almost always lose against a CC dedicated troop. They are Ld10, but when you lose combat by 4 or more, there's a big chance you are gonna fail that Ld test, and if that happens and the enemy makes a sweeping-advance, bye-bye RP.

The perception is coloured somewhat by the fact that you play Tau. Against any kind of decent assault unit, RP is all but useless in close combat. A lot of armies do well to resort to sweeping large Necron units BECAUSE it'll put RP to rest wheretheir shooting won't.

For that reason I say ATSKNF is more useful overall. But I offer another example (that, ok, is optional). Veterans of the Long War. Seems like a risk until you consider two things. The ridiculously low points cost, and the fact that there are more loyalist marine players around than not...

Of course, what would be really broken is a unit with both...

I once failed 13 reanimation protocols at once.. in the same squad, in one shooting phase.. dont ask me how,.. i just did!
I think They shall know no fear is usefull, as is reanimation protocols.

Marines saying well be back would be awesome But OP

ATSKNF is really powerful if used in conjunction with Combat Tactics.

Fail combat in the enemy's turn, auto fall back, rally 3", lay into them with rapid fire. Or bolt pistols and charge for an extra attack, depending on who it is.

I actually won a game against my friend due to ATSKNF and CT. My Terminator Librarian went up against a Necron Overlord. He MSS me, I did one wound to myself, my Storm Shield saved me from his Warscythe, I auto fell back and ripped him apart with Smite.

Now, with that said, ResProtocol is a huge pain in the ass if the unit has a ResOrb Lord. You can wipe a squad down from 20 to 3, and then have 10 stand back up. >:|

 xSPYXEx wrote:


Now, with that said, ResProtocol is a huge pain in the ass if the unit has a ResOrb Lord. You can wipe a squad down from 20 to 3, and then have 10 stand back up. >:|

Ooooooh i love it then such things happen! Almost everyone shoots on your warrior squad, only to see more then half the squad survive Oh and then on the next turn when 1d3 warriors return to the squad as well when there is a Ghost Ark close enough,.... ooooooh i start dancing like a little girl when i see my opponents face when its goess like this ---> --> -->

 Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:

 xSPYXEx wrote:


Now, with that said, ResProtocol is a huge pain in the ass if the unit has a ResOrb Lord. You can wipe a squad down from 20 to 3, and then have 10 stand back up. >:|

Ooooooh i love it then such things happen! Almost everyone shoots on your warrior squad, only to see more then half the squad survive Oh and then on the next turn when 1d3 warriors return to the squad as well when there is a Ghost Ark close enough,.... ooooooh i start dancing like a little girl when i see my opponents face when its goess like this ---> --> -->

If 17 die, it's expected to have around 8 come back up with the orb that is.
And ghost arks makes it even worse.

The most recent game I had, my opponent had like 20 Cultists + Kharn vs my 17 Warriors + Necron Lord, my Necron Lord got back up twice and Kharn turned into a Daemon Prince too.
The Lord and Kharn were in a challenge and even though the cultists had soo many attacks, and killed so many my Warriors kept getting back up every turn, + the ones from a Ghost Ark.
At the end the Daemon Prince got MSSed and lost 2 wounds, and my Lord just straight out murdered him with the Warscythe.
And the cultists vs Warriors ended up me having 17 Warriors and his 4 started fleeing.

I have played all marine armies so far and tbh I have had little/no benefit from Know No Fear. RP looks far more potent...

Id say RP is more versatile, but ATSKNF is probably more useful in the big picture.

But I have had games where Ive lost about 20 Warriors total over the entire game...

Honestly, as a Tau player, I'm just grateful that neither outright prevents pinning.

I play Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights, and Dark Angels.

Brass tacks, here's what it boils down to.

ATSKNF: Only useful in a couple situations. Requires a few models to die, a failed morale test, and occasionally a failed initiative roll-off, before its usefulness kicks in.

RP: Useful almost all the time. Only requires a single model to die, and at least one model to not die (unless ever-living, etc).

Those are generalized situations, but you get the idea. The one case where ATSKNF is clearly superior is in a Sweeping Advance, in which case you have to fail a combat, fail a morale test, and fail an initiative roll off, before it kicks in. I've found in most cases, if you're failing a combat enough to get swept, ATSKNF is really only going to buy you one turn. Maybe two if you're lucky.

Anecdotally, my funniest moment was when a squad of immortals was shot down from 10 to 1 guy, and 8 got back up. The look on your opponent's face is priceless.

ATSKNF is only useful in a few situations, I'll give you. However, when those situations come up, it's very helpful (or so I've been told.) Personally, the closest I have is a bonding knife, and that's only helpful because I can just loose combat, run, and (if I manage to not get overrun) regroup and shoot at them before they charge me again.

That said, I'd give up the ability to use firewarriors if it meant getting RP. That would just be insanely helpful. even if I was stuck with kroot as basic troops.

ASTKNF ignores leadership and assault sweep.

Protocols ignores shooting.

Generally, ATSKNF provides the better benefit because it prevents sweeping assault, allows you to ignore LD in most cases, and generally prance about. There's no downside to this one

Protocols is shut down usually by a good assault squad

Until ATSKNF makes puts units back in play RP beats it. ATSKNF is something beatable. That Marine fails his save, he dies. (barring FNP but that's another can of worms).

RP and a few bits of gear make Crons very hard to knock down and keep down, unless you have equal cheese (i.e. Draigo wings, etc.) to match them.


...of course I'm biased.

ATSKNF wins for me, not getting swept by losing an assault and failing the test is huge. It negates the entire concept of morale tests.

You also can't negate it like Fearless with Terrify.

Being immune to sweeping advance. Broken as hell.

Apples and oranges.

If pushed for an opinion I would say that ATSKNF is the better of the two
To me it is an order-of-operations thing.

ATSKNF prevents units from being ineffectualized (I totally just made that word up! ) through either preventing them from getting killed (swept) or lessening the impact on them (Fall Back/Regroup).

RP only kicks in when the damage has actually occurred where ATSKNF prevents the damage from occuring in the first place.

Something like that....

The advantage to ATSKNF is that it negates morale tests as a thing. It also makes units with fear somewhat pointless against roughly half the armies you'll face. I'd give it the edge. Though it does depend on who you're facing.

Either one is far better than the USRs that Team Chaos got this time around.

Can't count the number of times I have caused marines to fail moral and thought to myself if those were my orks they would just run off the board but the marines can rally and still take that objective. It's always on no need for good dice luck. I do think RP is a pain and powerful but I would say ATSKNF wins out especially when you consider objectives.

ATSKNF is a beast, no doubt about it, but like RP, its part of the army and has been since its inception.

That said, RP will usually have more impact on the game than ATSKNF. RP comes into play every turn, but ATSKNF generally only comes into play in the event Marines fail a morale test.

Since Marines are middle of the pack when it comes to average LD value, ATSKNF is almost a requirement to make the army usable.

I said ATSKNF, but thinking about it I think it is the combo of ATSKNF and Combat Tactics that is more powerful than RP. With the combo, if you are assaulted on the opponents turn, always choose to fail (since you won't get swept) and get a round of shooting in on your turn. The worst that could happen is they beat your initiative roll and you don't go anywhere, because you can't be swept.

However ATSKNF is still pretty powerful. Quite often I will kill half of a heavy weapons squad of marines, luck out to have them fail a LD test, but they just regroup the next turn anyway, so it was really not that helpful. If you tear into a squad of Necron warriors and get them to fail their LD, then RP goes away. Comparing LD9 and LD10, there is only a 1 in 12 difference (3 rolls different of the 36 possibilities).

ATSKNF is a beast, no doubt about it, but like RP, its part of the army and has been since its inception.

It has only been around since Third Edition.

2nd edition had them able to take Psychological tests just as well, they just had special Break Tests. They needed a Chaplain to even Reroll such effects.

I'm surprised how the poll is looking right now. I would have expected my friend to be right faster than people saying RP is more potent