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Hello fellow brethren,

The main GW store in Austria (in Europe, not the one with the cangaroos) recently announced via their FB page that with the 31st of march they won't accept FW orders any more.
The main advantage for the customers was, that they could order any amount of products at any time without paying for shipping.
I have to say that I'm a little disappointed.

Do you guys experience the same trend in your countries?

 Enzephalon wrote:
Hello fellow brethren,

The main GW store in Austria (in Europe, not the one with the cangaroos) recently announced via their FB page that with the 31st of march they won't accept FW orders any more.
The main advantage for the customers was, that they could order any amount of products at any time without paying for shipping.
I have to say that I'm a little disappointed.

Do you guys experience the same trend in your countries?

This happened about 2-3 years ago in the US. GW stores stopped organizing batch sales to qualify for free shipping. They claimed because doing returns was a giant pain, but that is unlikely. The stores got zero profit from those sales, and bean counters don't like zero profit anything.

FW have a few shady practices, like including VAT in the prices for non UK customers and the 15% shipping regardless of what it actually costs to ship.

GW also pulled new Imperial Armour releases from stores. So now FW direct is the only way to get any FW books which again will include VAT and BS shipping.

 Aerethan wrote:

FW have a few shady practices, like including VAT in the prices for non UK customers and the 15% shipping regardless of what it actually costs to ship.

GW also pulled new Imperial Armour releases from stores. So now FW direct is the only way to get any FW books which again will include VAT and BS shipping.

Not that I condone FW's business practices re charging VAT on overseas orders, but books in the UK are zero-rated for VAT (i.e. not subject to VAT).

Well... It's a sad thing to see the option disappear.
I will place my last order in march and simply stop buying anything else from then on.

The exchange rate from € to £ not being to my advantage has always been a hindrance, but now that I have to pay the shipping too it is really not as exciting to order from FW anymore.

angryboy2k wrote:

 Aerethan wrote:

FW have a few shady practices, like including VAT in the prices for non UK customers and the 15% shipping regardless of what it actually costs to ship.

GW also pulled new Imperial Armour releases from stores. So now FW direct is the only way to get any FW books which again will include VAT and BS shipping.

Not that I condone FW's business practices re charging VAT on overseas orders, but books in the UK are zero-rated for VAT (i.e. not subject to VAT).

Fair enough. As a non UK customer( I almost never buy new product from the UK) I'm not familiar with their tax system, nor should I have to be.

In California the sales tax is 8%. That doesn't get charged to any customer making a purchase from outside the state. Works like that across the entire country. I'm not a UK citizen, I shouldn't have to pay UK taxes. AFAIK most UK companies don't charge VAT to oversees sales as it wouldn't apply to them. Also the "logic" and method behind that tax is stupid on a whole new level. Sales tax is pretty straightforward.

They are not charging you the VAT, they are just charging non UK customers 20% more on non book items.

And VAT is quite simple, anything you sell attracts VAT of 20%, which must be within the stated price so the price the customer sees is the one he pays (unless the item is exempt from VAT like books, food, children's clothes etc.) So if I sell something and want to make a £1 sale the price on the ticket must be £1.20 and I give that 20 pence difference to the government for being excellent chaps and providing me with a welfare state, a judicial system, an army, police force, nuclear deterrent and a myriad of other bits and bobs.

The 20p your charged extra for not living in the UK goes to those excellent chaps at Forgeworld and pays for the booze at the Christmas party.

 Enzephalon wrote:
The main GW store in Austria (in Europe, not the one with the cangaroos) recently announced via their FB page that with the 31st of march they won't accept FW orders any more.

Welcome to the rest of the world.

=P They charge for shipping in the UK, so I'm surprised that they were offering it for free to other countries.

You can still order FW products in GW outlets here though. ...I wouldn't know why though seeing as its costing you the travel expenses to go and pick your order up, rather than getting it delivered to your address or the same price.

...Another case of GW logic with that one.

Koppo wrote:
They are not charging you the VAT, they are just charging non UK customers 20% more on non book items.

And VAT is quite simple, anything you sell attracts VAT of 20%, which must be within the stated price so the price the customer sees is the one he pays (unless the item is exempt from VAT like books, food, children's clothes etc.) So if I sell something and want to make a £1 sale the price on the ticket must be £1.20 and I give that 20 pence difference to the government for being excellent chaps and providing me with a welfare state, a judicial system, an army, police force, nuclear deterrent and a myriad of other bits and bobs.

The 20p your charged extra for not living in the UK goes to those excellent chaps at Forgeworld and pays for the booze at the Christmas party.

To be fair, every gaming company I have dealt with in Europe, (Battlefield Berlin, Tabletop.eu, Gamezone, and Ludik Bazzar, off the top of my head) have all charged me VAT. At work, we have had to deal with it ordering from companies in Europe as well. I don't think it is a "they are just gouging you" thing.

It's actually an interesting point - there is nothing at all stopping FW from doing it, just as other companies do, simply because they are the only one selling that product. It actually makes non-EU sales much more profitable to FW, as they are getting to keep the extra 20% that they would otherwise be giving to the taxman.

One way it can work to the non-EU customer though is making orders from UK companies through a retailer - When I made some orders from Wayland games before when living outside the EU they would knock off the cost of the VAT, but of course normally you end up paying much more than that for shipping + customs taxes. It does make these other options yet another notch cheaper than FW though, who are adding a percentage at each stage of the operation.

silent25 wrote:

Koppo wrote:
They are not charging you the VAT, they are just charging non UK customers 20% more on non book items.

And VAT is quite simple, anything you sell attracts VAT of 20%, which must be within the stated price so the price the customer sees is the one he pays (unless the item is exempt from VAT like books, food, children's clothes etc.) So if I sell something and want to make a £1 sale the price on the ticket must be £1.20 and I give that 20 pence difference to the government for being excellent chaps and providing me with a welfare state, a judicial system, an army, police force, nuclear deterrent and a myriad of other bits and bobs.

The 20p your charged extra for not living in the UK goes to those excellent chaps at Forgeworld and pays for the booze at the Christmas party.

To be fair, every gaming company I have dealt with in Europe, (Battlefield Berlin, Tabletop.eu, Gamezone, and Ludik Bazzar, off the top of my head) have all charged me VAT. At work, we have had to deal with it ordering from companies in Europe as well. I don't think it is a "they are just gouging you" thing.

The idea of a sales tax that only applies to X and not to Y is convoluted. Furthermore, there is nothing on the FW site that says they aren't charging me VAT. It doesn't say "UK and EU price includes VAT" or that when I go to get a total and put in my shipping, that the price is 20% less for it.

 Wyrmalla wrote:
=P They charge for shipping in the UK, so I'm surprised that they were offering it for free to other countries.

You can still order FW products in GW outlets here though. ...I wouldn't know why though seeing as its costing you the travel expenses to go and pick your order up, rather than getting it delivered to your address or the same price.

...Another case of GW logic with that one.

You haven't gotten the point. The option to order FW via the GW outlet store isn't available anymore. Of course I can order directly from FW, but they charge me 15% of the order value for shipping. This isn't worth it.

 Aerethan wrote:

The idea of a sales tax that only applies to X and not to Y is convoluted. Furthermore, there is nothing on the FW site that says they aren't charging me VAT. It doesn't say "UK and EU price includes VAT" or that when I go to get a total and put in my shipping, that the price is 20% less for it.

You know, I cannot find anywhere where it does say I'm charged VAT...

I know the sales invoice I'm sent with the product does.

Koppo wrote:

 Aerethan wrote:

The idea of a sales tax that only applies to X and not to Y is convoluted. Furthermore, there is nothing on the FW site that says they aren't charging me VAT. It doesn't say "UK and EU price includes VAT" or that when I go to get a total and put in my shipping, that the price is 20% less for it.

You know, I cannot find anywhere where it does say I'm charged VAT...

I know the sales invoice I'm sent with the product does.

Ummm, what?

VAT was just said in this thread to be included in prices up front. Since it's a British site, the VAT has to be included in the shown prices. When I(a US resident and citizen) add things to my cart, they are not 20% cheaper which would indicate the removal of said tax.

This is why your taxes are confusing. In CA, I don't have to wonder if sales tax will apply to one item and not the other. It applies to all(very very few exceptions, none of which come to mind atm).

 Aerethan wrote:

Koppo wrote:

 Aerethan wrote:

The idea of a sales tax that only applies to X and not to Y is convoluted. Furthermore, there is nothing on the FW site that says they aren't charging me VAT. It doesn't say "UK and EU price includes VAT" or that when I go to get a total and put in my shipping, that the price is 20% less for it.

You know, I cannot find anywhere where it does say I'm charged VAT...

I know the sales invoice I'm sent with the product does.

Ummm, what?

VAT was just said in this thread to be included in prices up front. Since it's a British site, the VAT has to be included in the shown prices. When I(a US resident and citizen) add things to my cart, they are not 20% cheaper which would indicate the removal of said tax.

This is why your taxes are confusing. In CA, I don't have to wonder if sales tax will apply to one item and not the other. It applies to all(very very few exceptions, none of which come to mind atm).

It's really not that confusing, the price listed IS the price you pay.

No sales tax BS that changes your total only once you've reached the checkout.

 Aerethan wrote:


This is why your taxes are confusing. In CA, I don't have to wonder if sales tax will apply to one item and not the other. It applies to all(very very few exceptions, none of which come to mind atm).

Confusing? I have to disagree. What you see is what you pay. Whether that price includes tax or not - and many UK residents are well aware which items don't include VAT (books, baby clothes, essential food items...)

In California, I believe unprepared food is exempt from sales tax. The sales tax in California also differs from city to city! So 8% in Sacramento becomes 9% in Los Angeles!

The US/Canadian idea of "sales tax added at the register in order to rub your nose in it" also means you need to be a walking calculator when you buy stuff - especially critical if you're a poor student trying to figure out if you can afford items x, y and z, and whether or not some food item or another at the supermarket is "unprepared" or not.

Having lived in North America, Asia and Europe for around a third of my life each, I find the North American method much more irritating.

 Enzephalon wrote:

 Wyrmalla wrote:
=P They charge for shipping in the UK, so I'm surprised that they were offering it for free to other countries.

You can still order FW products in GW outlets here though. ...I wouldn't know why though seeing as its costing you the travel expenses to go and pick your order up, rather than getting it delivered to your address or the same price.

...Another case of GW logic with that one.

You haven't gotten the point. The option to order FW via the GW outlet store isn't available anymore. Of course I can order directly from FW, but they charge me 15% of the order value for shipping. This isn't worth it.

Uh, and my point was that they charge people the shipping fees even when you order in a GW store here...

The Infinite wrote:

 Aerethan wrote:

Koppo wrote:

 Aerethan wrote:

The idea of a sales tax that only applies to X and not to Y is convoluted. Furthermore, there is nothing on the FW site that says they aren't charging me VAT. It doesn't say "UK and EU price includes VAT" or that when I go to get a total and put in my shipping, that the price is 20% less for it.

You know, I cannot find anywhere where it does say I'm charged VAT...

I know the sales invoice I'm sent with the product does.

Ummm, what?

VAT was just said in this thread to be included in prices up front. Since it's a British site, the VAT has to be included in the shown prices. When I(a US resident and citizen) add things to my cart, they are not 20% cheaper which would indicate the removal of said tax.

This is why your taxes are confusing. In CA, I don't have to wonder if sales tax will apply to one item and not the other. It applies to all(very very few exceptions, none of which come to mind atm).

It's really not that confusing, the price listed IS the price you pay.

No sales tax BS that changes your total only once you've reached the checkout.

I'm not saying that it's display is confusing, the fact that it applies to X and not to Y is confusing. Why are books exempt? Taxing only certain transactions seems convoluted.

Now I will grant that yes some areas in CA charge more than the state sales tax of 8% which is irritating, but then having lived here for 28 years I just automatically assume all purchases will be 10% more than the tag price because it's easier math to do at a glance and I know the total will actually be a little less. Better to assume a higher tax then to find out you were short on money to afford the item.

As for the food, it is VERY specific food items that are exempt, not everything at the gorcery store. Honestly those exemptions are so few that I still assume sales tax and then just get a pleasant surprise on the receipt when it's not there.

Furthermore, I maintain that non CA customers should not(and don't) pay local sales taxes. My company buys product from all across the country and the only time we get charged tax is if our customer is in the same state that the item is being sold in(in store pickups and such). If we have to ship it from another state, no tax is charged.

So even if VAT was the most easy to understand tax of all time, I still shouldn't be charged for it unless I show up in the UK to buy something.

And honestly this is the problem with advertising tax rates. VAT doesn't/shouldn't apply to all customers online. Every single US site that sells will have some manner of disclaimer like "CA customers add 8% sales tax", thus letting anyone NOT in CA know that the advertised price is what it is, and CA residents know to add their own tax.

Aerethan, you are not being charged VAT, you are being charged more for the same goods because you are outside of the EU. So they do not need to tell you that they are or are not charging you it.

I am charged less for the goods, but the 20% VAT makes it up to the same value.

This means that you and I pay the same for the same items, but FW make more from your sale than from mine.

As for the ins and outs out VAT, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value_Added_Tax_(United_Kingdom)

Personally I found the US sales tax system frustrating as, not being used to it, I constantly was having to pay more than I expected for items based upon the price advertised.

 Aerethan wrote:
In California the sales tax is 8%. That doesn't get charged to any customer making a purchase from outside the state. Works like that across the entire country. I'm not a UK citizen, I shouldn't have to pay UK taxes. AFAIK most UK companies don't charge VAT to oversees sales as it wouldn't apply to them. Also the "logic" and method behind that tax is stupid on a whole new level. Sales tax is pretty straightforward.

I regret to inform you that you are wrong. In CA we are charged sales tax on any purchase made from any state. This is a law that has always existed but had been difficult to enforce as it was the responsibility of the citizen to declare that they had tax to pay on out of state purchases. Within the last year the law has changed such that the retailer is required to charge the tax.

 ph34r wrote:

 Aerethan wrote:
In California the sales tax is 8%. That doesn't get charged to any customer making a purchase from outside the state. Works like that across the entire country. I'm not a UK citizen, I shouldn't have to pay UK taxes. AFAIK most UK companies don't charge VAT to oversees sales as it wouldn't apply to them. Also the "logic" and method behind that tax is stupid on a whole new level. Sales tax is pretty straightforward.

I regret to inform you that you are wrong. In CA we are charged sales tax on any purchase made from any state. This is a law that has always existed but had been difficult to enforce as it was the responsibility of the citizen to declare that they had tax to pay on out of state purchases. Within the last year the law has changed such that the retailer is required to charge the tax.

There a web page explaining that? BS it's my responsibility to make sure that local governments are getting their taxes, that is their job. It is the responsibility of local government to enfore businesses paying appropriate sales tax, and it is the business' responsibility to charge it.

I just bought all manner of product from MA and wasn't charged any sales tax, same with purchases from NY and various other states. If a state wants to demand people pay local taxes for online purchases, they can charge it up front. I'm not going to babysit everyone else's local taxation, nor should any citizen be required to.

Is the law about retailers charging it a CA law? If so I fail to see how CA can enforce CA law to a retailer in another state. Now if it was federal law that local tax apply to all online sales, that would be fine. To that same degree, the government can babysit retailers for their taxes all they want.

Now if the IRS wants me to file receipts each year for EVERY out of state transaction to verify that I paid local tax on it, that is micromanagement on a massively inefficient scale.