Eldar aspect warriors - a couple of proposed changes...

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**DAaddict**

A couple of changes to aspect warriors to give them unique uses. What do you think.

Swooping Hawks - They have wings why not let them fly? That allows them to use their grenade pack template drop on any enemy unit that they flly over plus harass with their lasguns. It gives them the ability to intercept flyers or vehicles and use their haywire grenades.

Scorpions - AV 3 losing fleet is a dated concept. Shroud and stealth make sense as aspect abilities. The +1 S +1A is good but they really need offensive grenades and krak grenades would add some value to them.

Fire Dragons - Switch the melta to a heat lance. The fire pike can be a heat lance at S8. This simple change gives them a little more standoff range.

Howling Banshees - They really suck right now... Give them a role in the army. Acrobatics - allows them to assault from vehicles gaining the assault ramp rules.
Make the banshee helmet not allow overwatch fire and perhaps disallow counterattack. They are still just a mass of S3 AP3 attacks so they are not the be all end all but they do fulfill an assault role in an eldar army.

Dark Reapers - Get rid of the immobiity make them at least slow and purposeful. This allows your to alter your position but you are still only AP3 T3 so if an opponent fires at them they are still going to die. To get rid of the 2 expendables and watch what the 80 point exarch can do... Reduce their ROF to 1 but increase the Reaper Launcher to S7 AP3... Then allow the eldar to choose either Quick Fire - Increase ROF by 1 OR ignore cover OR perhaps Tank Hunter... So reapers can choose an option that actually compliments their exarch - whether he has a reaper launcher, EML or Tempest launcher...

Warp Spiders - This is the one aspect that - to me - needs no change. The only thing would be to bring it into a technology similarity to Night Spinners. So any unit that is fired at needs to check for Dangerous Terrain the next time it moves...

Dire Avengers - I think the DA don't really need changes other than perhaps cost. This is dependent on what happens to Guardian Defenders...

Shining Spears - Wow, I am at a loss on how to improve these. They suffer from high cost and small head count... Perhaps change the laser lance to S6 AP2 turbo boost attack similar to Dark Eldar Reavers...

The universal changes are make an Exarch with abilities an autoinclude into any choice so -for example- A Dire Avenger will cost minimum 112 points plus the weapon options that the exarch has... Blade Storm and Defend are both auto included and no longer "lost" if the exarch gets singled out and killed.

The other option is to make Phoenix Lords - with the exception of Asurmen - an upgrade to an Exarch. To simplify, the exarch has the folllowing adds.... + 1 to all abilities,
a 12" fearless and +1 attack bubble for all of the same aspect plus his unique weapons. In addition, his one unit is considered a troop choice... The points cost -of course- needs to be appropriate. They all get Eternal Warrior.

Asurmen remains a HQ choice. He gets all the abilities of an autarch plus the 12" fearless and +1 attack bubble for all Dire Avengers... As an alternate, perhaps a 6" bubble of Prescience for all Dire Avengers...

Please look this over and comment on whether it is OP or if you think there would be a better change to any aspect warrior...

**rohansoldier**

DAaddict wrote:
A couple of changes to aspect warriors to give them unique uses. What do you think.

Swooping Hawks - They have wings why not let them fly? That allows them to use their grenade pack template drop on any enemy unit that they flly over plus harass with their lasguns. It gives them the ability to intercept flyers or vehicles and use their haywire grenades.

>>> Agreed. I also posted something similar to this.

Scorpions - AV 3 losing fleet is a dated concept. Shroud and stealth make sense as aspect abilities. The +1 S +1A is good but they really need offensive grenades and krak grenades would add some value to them.

>>>> Agreed again. Perhaps assaulting from outflank too?

Fire Dragons - Switch the melta to a heat lance. The fire pike can be a heat lance at S8. This simple change gives them a little more standoff range.

>>>> Not a bad idea. It would be nice if Dragons were a bit less fire and forget than they are now. The lower strength offsets the increased range and lance rule.

Howling Banshees - They really suck right now... Give them a role in the army. Acrobatics - allows them to assault from vehicles gaining the assault ramp rules.
Make the banshee helmet not allow overwatch fire and perhaps disallow counterattack. They are still just a mass of S3 AP3 attacks so they are not the be all end all but they do fulfill an assault role in an eldar army.

>>>> Definately yes to this. Banshees used to be amazing now they suck. Assaulting out of vehicles should be a given and disallowing overwatch fire makes sense and the target is supposed to be paralysed by fear from the masks. Also an AP2 weapon option for the Exarch.

Dark Reapers - Get rid of the immobiity make them at least slow and purposeful. This allows your to alter your position but you are still only AP3 T3 so if an opponent fires at them they are still going to die. To get rid of the 2 expendables and watch what the 80 point exarch can do... Reduce their ROF to 1 but increase the Reaper Launcher to S7 AP3... Then allow the eldar to choose either Quick Fire - Increase ROF by 1 OR ignore cover OR perhaps Tank Hunter... So reapers can choose an option that actually compliments their exarch - whether he has a reaper launcher, EML or Tempest launcher...

>>> Not sure about moving and firing but definately buff the strength of the reaper launcher. Also allow their reaper range finders to give them skyfire and ignore cover against ground targets. Maybe ignore jink saves as well.

Warp Spiders - This is the one aspect that - to me - needs no change. The only thing would be to bring it into a technology similarity to Night Spinners. So any unit that is fired at needs to check for Dangerous Terrain the next time it moves...

>>> I also love Warp Spiders but difficult terrain or rending would be nice to have.

Dire Avengers - I think the DA don't really need changes other than perhaps cost. This is dependent on what happens to Guardian Defenders...

>>> Shuriken cannon for the Exarch please!

Shining Spears - Wow, I am at a loss on how to improve these. They suffer from high cost and small head count... Perhaps change the laser lance to S6 AP2 turbo boost attack similar to Dark Eldar Reavers...

>>> Lower points cost and a turbo boost attack like you say would be a start. Still not sure if it would make them viable though.

The universal changes are make an Exarch with abilities an autoinclude into any choice so -for example- A Dire Avenger will cost minimum 112 points plus the weapon options that the exarch has... Blade Storm and Defend are both auto included and no longer "lost" if the exarch gets singled out and killed.

>>>> Definately. An experience unit of warriors forgetting their training when the unit leader dies is ridiculous.

The other option is to make Phoenix Lords - with the exception of Asurmen - an upgrade to an Exarch. To simplify, the exarch has the folllowing adds.... + 1 to all abilities,
a 12" fearless and +1 attack bubble for all of the same aspect plus his unique weapons. In addition, his one unit is considered a troop choice... The points cost -of course- needs to be appropriate. They all get Eternal Warrior.

>>>> I never thought of this idea before. Could be good though and would keep the Phoenix Lords nasty while also keeping their points down. Would they lose the 2+ save? Would probably need some new special characters in HQ to compensate though.

Asurmen remains a HQ choice. He gets all the abilities of an autarch plus the 12" fearless and +1 attack bubble for all Dire Avengers... As an alternate, perhaps a 6" bubble of Prescience for all Dire Avengers...

>>> That could be nasty but would probably only affect his unit so not too bad.

Please look this over and comment on whether it is OP or if you think there would be a better change to any aspect warrior...

**DAaddict**

Thanks... the ability to assault out of outflank is a good add to Scorpions. I like the idea of Scorpions being the first choice for foot dar an against GEQ while Banshees being the vehicle delivery and MEQ choice.

How about this for the reapers...
Base line S7 AP3 Heavy 1 or S4 AP4 Blast indirect chose one or the other at the beginning of the game.
(adding the indirect allows regulars to not just stand around and watch)
Aspect abilities:

Choose one of these three for the turn:

1. Skyfire/Tank Hunter (obviously depending on the type of round chosen,)
2. +1 to ROF

I like the idea of a Shuriken Cannon option for the DA Exarch. Probably better than the Force Weapon/pistol option of today.

An phoenix lord would be +1 on all stats from an exarch.

So for example.
A current Striking Scorpion Exarch:
WS:5 BS:5 S:3 I:6 T:3 W:1 A:2 Ld: 9 AV: 3+

Karandas:
WS:6 BS:6 S:4 I:7 T:4 W:2 A:3 Ld: 10 AV:2+
All Striking Scorpions Fearless.
12" All Striking Scorpions +1 A.
His troop only becomes a troop choice.

**rohansoldier**

Yeah I like the sound of your phoenix lord idea now.

Buffed unit leaders makes a lot more sense to me as the eldar special character section (for HQ's) is huge but made up of mostly overcosted super exarchs when there is so much more scope in the eldar army for SC's such as a warlock, pathfinder, jetbike riding wild rider prince and hell, even a wraithlord SC would be possible in the fluff and pretty cool as well.

**Lucre**

I like some of your ideas but I think eldar require more of an overhaul than this. This feels like patchwork where I'd rather just like to see a more cohesive quilt out of eldar.

When it comes to striking scorpions though, I feel like they are one of the aspects that should be moved to the troop slot. Unless they do something really mean deployment wise (and even then) they just don't feel special enough to not be scoring and they sorta feel like what they do is very well suited to taking ground and being leaned on by an eldar force.

**Jackal**

I agree with lucre on this one.
Your trying to put a plaster on the titanic

I love some of your ideas (spears for example)
But others i dont agree with that much.

Reapers i find are nice as they are and i would be lost without them.
Just throw them in cover or on a skyshield and they do just fine.

Phoenix lords, well, cost is an issue.
I really do think they need seperate profiles though as a general one with special rules really does not fully cover them.

I find maugen and zar to be ok at the moment (a bit points heavy)
Feugan is actually pretty underated though!
S5, attacks as a MC (no saves, 2D6 armour pen) EW etc etc.
He is actually quite nasty.
Seems kinda small, but S5 and ignoring saves is rare for eldar

**Lucre**

Here are some of my idears I had aegis ago.

Shuricannon profile to AP4. Just make it feel a little different from short ranged lasers. They're super cutting things right?

Brightlance to AP1 might rule. Really make eldar more reliant on the instakill vs HP strippers.

Wave Serpents can carry a heavy weapon.
Give eldar heavy weapons in the squads it's own special 2 wound profile. You could make it so that they even have weirdo support ones.

Price cuts all around.

Pick a couple areas to make dire avengers potentially proficient in. They are supposed to be warrior generalists and great at holding ground but they just feel like expensive guardians. No being an expensive tarpit or being okay at shooting every other turn don't count as proficiencies.

If you were to make the vyper a modular vehicle and give it some types, like say a chariot one, maybe a witch one and then maybe an strafing turret classic one that would make it a little more interesting vs the hornet.

Somehow dillute the concentrations of importance vs expensive upgrade characters. At least make warlocks do more when put into squads. It's so embarrassing how seriously these guys rely on expensive psychic powers when they are supposed to just be super competent.

Something has to happen regarding eldar mobility now that transports are less useful and fleet applies mainly to charging. Especially given how ineffective their gun's range is vs their flimsy defensive profiles.

Eldar need more interesting weird stuff going on (maybe weapons) to shore up their poor close combat statistics. I'm not sure relying on doom constantly on your expensive 4WS 3S guys really does it. More interesting combat dynamics would be super neat. Maybe some equipment that reflects how important timing is and their mastery of planning. Something that you don't get to use more than once maybe?

**rohansoldier**

I agree that our ideas seem kinda limited and that eldar need a complete overhaul to be competitive again, but if you put down too many new ideas in homebrew rules you often get accused of overpowering the units.

As an example of a major change, I would like to see warp spiders lose their 12" range and go for either a strength 6 flame template or a strength 4 flame template with rending and the entangle effect of the night spinner.

To offset the decrease in range, I would like to see the warp spiders teleport move increased to 3D6" in the assault phase so they can hopefully template a target to death and disappear.

Do you think this would improve the unit (although they are one of the few that work well atm) or make them less useful?

**DAaddict**

If you auto-include the exarch abiities but don't have to pay for it, you have in effect reduced the cost and eliminated the picking off of the exarch to eliminate the powers...

Example: Now 10 DA with exarch with PW & SS + Bladestorm & Defend 177
Post change: 10 DA with same Exarch 147...
from an average cost of 18 per model to 15.

You could make it easy and just make DA 70 points for 5 with exarch plus 12 per additional model and then Exarch weapons.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I like the S4 template Spiders but would have to be playtested... I mean going from 5 now with dual spinners generating an average of around 9 wounds to dropping 5 templates (one twin-linked) say they cover 5 figs each, that is 20 hits... 10 wounds plus 5 TL hits generating about 4 more hits...14 wounds... ouch. Do it at S6 template and we are going to affect over 20 models.

**Mahtamori**

I'm not one who'd like it if powers were free of charge, I'd prefer if the powers were chosen in exclusion of each other to further specialize the squad.

That said, the Exarch is a very weak model to rest so many points on. As it is a Scorpion Exarch is 28 points for a model even before squad upgrades and over 50 points on a model with 1 wound and T3 and no ability to even buy an invulnerable... is a bit much.

For me it's a choice between really cheap squad upgrades that are sniperable or more expensive (read: current cost or there around) that specialize the squad and forces you to choose but is not dependent on the Exarch.

**DAaddict**

@Mahtamori - I really dislike the idea that you can lose everything if someone snipes out one guy. At the least, I would like to see the cost spread out over the whole of the squad... A

I would also like to avoid the leaderless squads and force people to buy the exarch with a minimum squad.

Su to simpllify, say +10 points for the exarch plus the items...

Now I wouldn't mind if you lower the base cost of an aspect warrior (like everyone is calling for) and then like CSM VotLW, making it cost for the ability on a per figure basis...

So using the same example of Dire Avengers with Bladestorm, Defend an PW/SS costs you 177.

Say 60 points for 5 Dire Avengers + 10 per additional up to 10 and then +2 per ability plus the exarch special weapons... so
10 man costs you 110 , bladestorm 20, defend 20 and the 15 for PW/SS making it cost 155... still a significant reduction or about 10% for a base squad and no change for getting a squad of 5 but then you auto have an exarch with a catapult.

**Mahtamori**

We're essentially thinking alike, then, although I'd prefer more specialization through squad upgrade. You either get an exarch that's progressive or one that's conservative (using the example from Path of the Warrior) where one exarch specializes in training elite troops for covert missions while the other specializes in assembling a coherent fighting unit - i.e. one gets the stealth stuff and the other gets Defend, you don't get both.

Also, I never did think Defend suited the Dire Avengers all that well, it is more appropriate to the Scorpions (which currently have two abilities which are essential to each other - get both or get none (actually, you'd probably not want Scorpions at all if you don't get both))
And Bladestorm in it's current form is a bit difficult to manage. Creates the classic PVP Burst DPS problem.

Regardless, this leaves Phoenix Lords by the way. Are they separate HQ or q one-squad-per-army upgrade?

Scorpions already have Plasma Grenades, but I assume you meant anti-vehicle grenades? Why not give them what Eldar seem to love to use against vehicles - Haywire Greandes?

Shining Spears: why not use their lances to do vector strikes? Really damned painful vector strikes?
I really CAN see these getting dog standard Power Spears with an added short ranged Bright Lance. Cut their costs a bit. Add Shimmer Shields.

Speaking of Shimmer Shields. Change those to straight up 5++ against all attacks and stick them on Storm Guardians for free. Also make Shimmer Shield a squad upgrade for those that can take them, not an Exarch one.

**DAaddict**

Mahtamori wrote:
We're essentially thinking alike, then, although I'd prefer more specialization through squad upgrade. You either get an exarch that's progressive or one that's conservative (using the example from Path of the Warrior) where one exarch specializes in training elite troops for covert missions while the other specializes in assembling a coherent fighting unit - i.e. one gets the stealth stuff and the other gets Defend, you don't get both.

Also, I never did think Defend suited the Dire Avengers all that well, it is more appropriate to the Scorpions (which currently have two abilities which are essential to each other - get both or get none (actually, you'd probably not want Scorpions at all if you don't get both))
And Bladestorm in it's current form is a bit difficult to manage. Creates the classic PVP Burst DPS problem.

Regardless, this leaves Phoenix Lords by the way. Are they separate HQ or q one-squad-per-army upgrade?

Scorpions already have Plasma Grenades, but I assume you meant anti-vehicle grenades? Why not give them what Eldar seem to love to use against vehicles - Haywire Greandes?

Shining Spears: why not use their lances to do vector strikes? Really damned painful vector strikes?
I really CAN see these getting dog standard Power Spears with an added short ranged Bright Lance. Cut their costs a bit. Add Shimmer Shields.

Speaking of Shimmer Shields. Change those to straight up 5++ against all attacks and stick them on Storm Guardians for free. Also make Shimmer Shield a squad upgrade for those that can take them, not an Exarch one.

LOL, I have been arguing that between SS and defend, the dire avengers are actually the best CC unit in the Eldar army. Cheap and effective at staying alive if not killing anything.

I was thinking of sub a phoenix lord for one exarch... While a lot buffer than a standard exarch, it also is less costly (and less powerful than the current IC versions. I like the idea of that one squad also becoming a Troop - actually an easy way to do a Biel Tan army without basing it on Dire Avengers but also not allowing someone to go hog wild on say Reapers or Spiders. Keeping Asurmen an IC fits both fluff wise and also seeing DA are already troops. Make him somewhat an Autarch on steroids with the DA exarch abilities.

I like the idea of giving a super stealth/infiltrate ability to Scorpions AND defend. Haywires would be great... They are still on foot so tank hunting should be optional- perhaps +2 per fig rather than auto include.

Not sure about SS for free on Storms but perhaps cheapen them up and then allow SS as a unit upgrade.

I like where you are going with Shining Spears perhaps even make them flyers rather than jetbikes... That would make them fast and also very hard to hit though not impossible.

I wouldn't mind a Shuriken Catapult turning into S4 Rapid fire 18" and then DA bladestorm making them Assault 2 18". Kind of ups defenders and makes DA mobile heavier firepower. Definitely a reason to reduce the cost of them.

**Mahtamori**

My reasoning regarding the Shimmer Shield on Storm Guardians is that it might be what they need in order to nudge their worth up to 8 points while keeping the rather inglorious pistol and dagger. Defenders would naturally get a somewhat decent catapult.
The problem with 18" rapid fire is that it is significantly harder to use and borderline downgrade. 6th edition uses half range for double-tap again, in 5th edition it would've made more sense where double-tap was 12" regardless of max range.
The real problem with Defenders and Avengers is that what would be the most elegant solution would be to give them Bolters and Storm Bolters with different names. Not exactly worth going for.

Scorpions: most tactica I read when I picked up 5th edition again after having been away from 40K for 10 years pinned Scorpions down as a good counter-assault unit. Having Defend on them would make them more of a tar-pit and at the same time make Banshees the clearly offensive CC unit while Scorpions became more defensive.

**Slaanesh-Devotee**

Lucre wrote:

Pick a couple areas to make dire avengers potentially proficient in. They are supposed to be warrior generalists and great at holding ground but they just feel like expensive guardians. No being an expensive tarpit or being okay at shooting every other turn don't count as proficiencies.

Base their rules around objectives?
i.e.:
When within 3" of an Objective, a Dire Avenger Unit is Fearless and doubles the range of its Shuriken Rifles (or whatever it is they have. I understand most Eldar players are frustrated by the tiny range).

Now they are a little harder to shift, and can cause some trouble to those coming to take the objective. A bit, anyway.