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evening dakka,

I've recently ventured into the land of vallejo's liquid metals (old gold, specifically). while the finish is everything folks have said it would be, I find working with the paint itself more difficult then expected. here are the basic rules I've been following, culled from various blogs and how-to videos:

- shake really well. then shake it some more.
- use a palette; don't use straight from the bottle
- re-seal the bottle asap so the solvent doesn't evaporate
- thin with isopropyl alcohol (I'm using 91%)
- add a drop or two of alcohol to the mix on your palette every couple minutes
- use a synthetic brush and clean with alcohol or some other solvent; never water

following these, I can get the paint on the model but it's not always a smooth process and I feel like I'm wasting a ton of paint. when I look at the palette, I'd say at least 50% of what comes out of the bottle ends up dried on there. and that's despite adding alcohol and re-mixing every few minutes. I find that the paint dries out on the brush really fast. I've taken to keeping a small dish of alcohol nearby to rinse my brush out after every few strokes. it seems like the more alcohol I add over time, the faster the paint dries out on the palette.

what am I doing wrong and how can I make this better?

This would probably work for you, Its made for the alcohol based acrylics made by Tamiya. Hope it helps.

http://www.tamiyausa.com/articles/feature.php?article-id=606

hrm, I don't think using another jar would help, but the 2:1 thinning ratio might. will test that out this morning.

I use these paints and I recommend doing nothing. The paints behave exactly how you describe. You aren't doing anything wrong, it's just painting. The only way to use more precise amounts of paint is to use a pipette or dropper.

I did figure out two things that have made life a bit easier.

first, I was using a flat surface (large, plastic canister lid) as a palette that was just too big for the amount of paint I was working with. so, it would spread out and dry out faster, despite mixing in more alcohol over time. using a smaller, bowl-shaped palette works much better. less surface area exposed to air, less space for it to spread out, etc.

second, to transfer from bottle to palette I've taken to using a straw, dipping it into the bottle about 1/4" and then putting my thumb over the top to create suction. move the straw to the palette, remove thumb, end up with a reasonable amount of paint instead of the huge blob I'd get if I tried to pour straight from the bottle. I thought about using an eye dropper or pipette, but then I'd just feel compelled to clean it every time and it didn't seem worth it

Well I would suggest changing your thinner from alchohol to windex or an equivalent. If the paint is already drying too fast for your liking then adding a thinner that dries equally fast if not faster is counter productive, I use alot of Vallejo paint right now and always thin with windex with no issue.

for some reason, I don't think thinning an alcohol based paint with an ammonia + water based thinner would end well. have you actually tried this with the liquid metal range of paints?

KKLReaper wrote:
Well I would suggest changing your thinner from alchohol to windex or an equivalent. If the paint is already drying too fast for your liking then adding a thinner that dries equally fast if not faster is counter productive, I use alot of Vallejo paint right now and always thin with windex with no issue.

Sorry, thinning any paint with Windex is horrible advice all around, for brush and airbrush painting. The paints in question here are alcohol-based metallic paints and need to be thinned with alcohol. Windex is mostly water (and other chemicals) and will ruin these paints. Thinning water-based acrylic paint with Windex is a bad idea too, normal water works just fine. If fast drying is an issue, buy a bottle of acrylic drying retarder... It works wonders.

@Varl:
You do everything I do when I use these paints and they work fine for me. Just get yourself in the frame of mind that these are a different paint with different properties than what we usually use... It will start to feel more natural the more you use them.

I haven't tried it with the liquid metals, from research I did when I was thinking of ordering them there are alot of different stories from different people about what to do and not to do when thinning them. Best advice I can give you is just try different things like windex or diluted alchohol and see what works or doesn't just like anything else with painting haha.

KKLReaper wrote:
I haven't tried it with the liquid metals, from research I did when I was thinking of ordering them there are alot of different stories from different people about what to do and not to do when thinning them. Best advice I can give you is just try different things like windex or diluted alchohol and see what works or doesn't just like anything else with painting haha.

No, no, no... You CANNOT thin Vallejo Liquid Metal paint with water, "diluted alcohol", or Windex. No offense, but if you do not have any expirence with the paint in question, it is best not offer advice about its proper use. I don't know what reviews you read about the paint, but nowhere that I've read says to use anything other than alcohol. It even says on the [newer] labels: "Dilute with alcohol, metal pigment will rust if in contact with water."

Omg DO NOT use windex with liquid golds! Ever! Stick with what your using, in fact your using them exactly like I do.

I have a bottle of every color in the range and they are great but they do have have a learning curve when using them. Buypainted uses them a lot and has a great video on how to use them. Here's how I use them:

I use 91% isopropyl alcohol to thin it out.
I use super thin taklon liner brushes, usually 0, 00 and 10/0 liners.I get them from art stores and they are cheap.
I deposit it onto a palette using either the brush, a Popsicle stick ( which i use to stir it up) or a plastic dropper , which you get 50 or more off amazon for a few bucks.

Most Important , I use a ceramic flower pallette. Works great because the paint never really bonds to the ceramic when it dries, so even after the paint dries I can add a few drops of alcohol and it snaps right back. I also put the paint in one well and straight alcohol in the center to loosen up the brush and thin it on the fly. Cleanup is easy with more alcohol. I really think the right palette makes a difference.

yup, that's pretty much how I do it now except the palette I use is plastic and I line it with tin foil. I've watched the video from buypainted you mentioned. that's where I picked up the basic rules

heavybolter wrote:
Omg DO NOT use windex with liquid golds! Ever! Stick with what your using, in fact your using them exactly like I do.

I have a bottle of every color in the range and they are great but they do have have a learning curve when using them. Buypainted uses them a lot and has a great video on how to use them. Here's how I use them:

I use 91% isopropyl alcohol to thin it out.
I use super thin taklon liner brushes, usually 0, 00 and 10/0 liners.I get them from art stores and they are cheap.
I deposit it onto a palette using either the brush, a Popsicle stick ( which i use to stir it up) or a plastic dropper , which you get 50 or more off amazon for a few bucks.

Most Important , I use a ceramic flower pallette. Works great because the paint never really bonds to the ceramic when it dries, so even after the paint dries I can add a few drops of alcohol and it snaps right back. I also put the paint in one well and straight alcohol in the center to loosen up the brush and thin it on the fly. Cleanup is easy with more alcohol. I really think the right palette makes a difference.

where might one get a ceramic glazed palette such as this? I currently use a plastic cheapy cheap palette, but am not opposed to spending monies on quality supplies (just recently bought a full range of VGC, VMA, 8 series 7 brushes, a renegade krome and a 150 dollar tank compressor)

 ScootyPuffJunior wrote:

KKLReaper wrote:
Well I would suggest changing your thinner from alchohol to windex or an equivalent. If the paint is already drying too fast for your liking then adding a thinner that dries equally fast if not faster is counter productive, I use alot of Vallejo paint right now and always thin with windex with no issue.

Sorry, thinning any paint with Windex is horrible advice all around, for brush and airbrush painting. The paints in question here are alcohol-based metallic paints and need to be thinned with alcohol. Windex is mostly water (and other chemicals) and will ruin these paints. Thinning water-based acrylic paint with Windex is a bad idea too, normal water works just fine. If fast drying is an issue, buy a bottle of acrylic drying retarder... It works wonders.

Why is this? This is the second time lately I've heard this. It was found to be pretty good, at least for brushing on Tamiya acrylics specifically.

To the OP: I would imagine adding more alcohol wouldn't do much to extend the working time. An alternative would be the Alclad II line of paints. They look great, especially when buffed with a cotton swab. Admittedly, I haven't used them yet, but will be for a 120mm samurai I'm doing. Most realistic metal paint I've seen, but they do take more prep and are enamel.

Alclad are not enamel. They are cellulose based lacquers. You need a gloss enamel base for them though.
Tamiya paints are not entirely alcohol based, they are water-soluble. The Vallejo liquid gold are NOT water soluble at all.

 Gunnvulcan wrote:

heavybolter wrote:
Omg DO NOT use windex with liquid golds! Ever! Stick with what your using, in fact your using them exactly like I do.

I have a bottle of every color in the range and they are great but they do have have a learning curve when using them. Buypainted uses them a lot and has a great video on how to use them. Here's how I use them:

I use 91% isopropyl alcohol to thin it out.
I use super thin taklon liner brushes, usually 0, 00 and 10/0 liners.I get them from art stores and they are cheap.
I deposit it onto a palette using either the brush, a Popsicle stick ( which i use to stir it up) or a plastic dropper , which you get 50 or more off amazon for a few bucks.

Most Important , I use a ceramic flower pallette. Works great because the paint never really bonds to the ceramic when it dries, so even after the paint dries I can add a few drops of alcohol and it snaps right back. I also put the paint in one well and straight alcohol in the center to loosen up the brush and thin it on the fly. Cleanup is easy with more alcohol. I really think the right palette makes a difference.

where might one get a ceramic glazed palette such as this? I currently use a plastic cheapy cheap palette, but am not opposed to spending monies on quality supplies (just recently bought a full range of VGC, VMA, 8 series 7 brushes, a renegade krome and a 150 dollar tank compressor)

You can get them from dickblick.com. They sell different styles. The one I'm still looking for is the one used in the hot lead videos with many round bays. Still searching.

Windex mixed in any paint is always bad. The reason why is it brakes down the bond of the pingment and the bonding agent of the paint. It can also damage the seals on some airbrushes.

@Winterdyne: Thanks for the clarification on Alclad. I knew about the required basecoat. Maybe that's how I made the assumption.

klinticuss wrote:
Windex mixed in any paint is always bad. The reason why is it brakes down the bond of the pingment and the bonding agent of the paint. It can also damage the seals on some airbrushes.

Good to know. I thin with Future in my airbrush which works great without damaging the acrylic bonds. I'll have to try that instead of Windex next time I brush Tamiya by hand.

Yay I found the palette I've been looking for on Amazon! it rrived yesterday, The wells are perfect sized.

I've just ordered some Vallejo Liquid Gold (I have a suspicion the Post Office has lost them, but we'll see!), so it's good to read some of the tips needed to use them. I haven't got any alcohol yet - I asked at the pharmacy yesterday and they didn't have any. Any tips on where to get it in the UK? I'll have to have a look out for a palette too : )

 finnan wrote:
I've just ordered some Vallejo Liquid Gold (I have a suspicion the Post Office has lost them, but we'll see!), so it's good to read some of the tips needed to use them. I haven't got any alcohol yet - I asked at the pharmacy yesterday and they didn't have any. Any tips on where to get it in the UK? I'll have to have a look out for a palette too : )

In the UK rubbing alcohol is referred to as surgical spirits. Got this little tidbit from Templarscrusade01 on youtube

Tamiya thinner works superbly with the liquid gold paints.

Winterdyne, are you referring to the X-20 thinner by Tamiya?

@Heavybolter, do you have a link for that pallate I looked but I can't find one with that many wells, I would really appreciate it!