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The place I play, today, I was called a cheater.

It really hit me hard, and although the guy apologized, then said I over analyze things.

Here is the list of things that I'd like answered:

Can you Charge after you Run when you WAAAGH?
This is the big one, I say you can't, he says you can. The Codex states that Waaagh gives fleet of foot, but later on it says "if you roll a 1 your boys start fighting and one model takes a wound. You may still move an inch, and assault as normal" He says because it says "assault as normal" you can run and charge, but I say its taking it out of context. I think its just saying that so you know you can still move an inch when you roll a 1 that causes your guys to fight.

My biggest defense for this, is that it also says "you may still move an inch" right before it, hinting to it just saying that so you know you can still charge if you roll a 1 on your charge.

Ghazz Waaagh
Does it last 1 or 2 turns? I say 1, he says 2. I say one because it says "their turn and the following player turn" which sounds like the person who calls the waaagh's turn, along with the opponent's turn afterwards. He says its the person who calls waaagh's first turn of waaagh and their next turn, because it doesnt say "and the other player's turn" unlike how the rulebook usually says things. Even though we play 6th and the codex is 4th so theres bound to be differing typing.

Firing on flyers
Can you shoot flyers if you don't have skyfire special rule, simple.

Ordinance and Barrage
Can you fire a ordinance or barrage weapon on someone if you don't have line of sight. Please state which can and can't.

Also, I'd like to hear explanation for your reasoning, even if you agree with me so i can use it with him.

He told me to come to this website to ask these questions here, so I am. He seems to give a lot of credit to this website.

Edit: I also would like to say I like playing with him and find him a pretty nice guy 99% of the time, but I'd just like rule debates to end.

Snoipah wrote:
The place I play, today, I was called a cheater.

It really hit me hard, and although the guy apologized, then said I over analyze things.

Here is the list of things that I'd like answered:

Can you Charge after you Run when you WAAAGH?
This is the big one, I say you can't, he says you can. The Codex states that Waaagh gives fleet of foot, but later on it says "if you roll a 1 your boys start fighting and one model takes a wound. You may still move an inch, and assault as normal" He says because it says "assault as normal" you can run and charge, but I say its taking it out of context. I think its just saying that so you know you can still move an inch when you roll a 1 that causes your guys to fight.

My biggest defense for this, is that it also says "you may still move an inch" right before it, hinting to it just saying that so you know you can still charge if you roll a 1 on your charge.

The wording is irrelevant, as GW has FAQ'ed that paragraph:

Page 31 – Ork Special Rules, Waaagh!

Change the last paragraph to read “If a unit rolls a 1 when
running or charging while under the effects of the Waaagh!
rule, the Orks start fighting before they get to the enemy and
one model from that unit takes a single wound (though
armour saves may be taken as normal). Note that this still
applies, even if the Ork player uses the Fleet special rule to reroll
a dice that rolled a 1".

Snoipah wrote:
Ghazz Waaagh
Does it last 1 or 2 turns? I say 1, he says 2. I say one because it says "their turn and the following player turn" which sounds like the person who calls the waaagh's turn, along with the opponent's turn afterwards. He says its the person who calls waaagh's first turn of waaagh and their next turn, because it doesnt say "and the other player's turn" unlike how the rulebook usually says things. Even though we play 6th and the codex is 4th so theres bound to be differing typing.

It lasts through the player turn it is called and the next player turn. So, if he called it in his turn, it would last through his player turn, then through your player turn. If he called it during the shooting phase of your player turn, it would last through your player turn, then his player turn. This one is fairly clear, so I'm not sure where he is getting his argument from.

Snoipah wrote:
Firing on flyers
Can you shoot flyers if you don't have skyfire special rule, simple.

Of course you can. But not with templates or blast weapons.

Snoipah wrote:
Ordinance and Barrage
Can you fire a ordinance or barrage weapon on someone if you don't have line of sight. Please state which can and can't.

Barrage weapons may fire indirectly. Ordnance weapons in-and-of-themselves may not. Ordnance-Barrage, therefore, may fire indirectly. pg. 34 BRB.

Oh my, YES YOU ARE RIGHT!

The ammendments say to replace the entire last paragraph, thus the assault part, THUS I WAS RIGHT! The run and charge rule was what really was debated and pretty much turned the tide of how the game went.

Thank you so much kind sir, I hope everyone else on this website is as helpful as you.

The WAAAGH! used to let Orks charge after running in the previous edition, but no longer. The rules for Fleet changed quite a bit.
puma713 is correct on all points.
You can only snap-fire at a flyer if you don't have Skyfire (covered in the Hard to Hit rule under Zoom).
I believe the first bullet point of the Barrage rules covers firing without Line of Sight.

Yeah Grendel, thats what I thought.

So I was right about everything, aside from barrage firing without LoS.

That, and I figured that'd make ghazz's waaagh far too powerful, being able to get in a vehicle, move 7, deploy 6, run 6, and charge 12.

What really bothered me is that he wanted that to be accomplishable, and yet he doesn't want me to be able to overwatch if units are within 4 inches of my overwatching vehicles as a "House Rule".

I mean, I know the rulebook says if playing with these rules arent fun, dont. But I want to play warhammer 40,000, not Battlemace Many Millennia

Snoipah wrote:

he doesn't want me to be able to overwatch if units are within 4 inches of my overwatching vehicles as a "House Rule".

I'm not quite sure what you're saying, or what he's saying, but I'll point this out:
Vehicles cannot Overwatch no matter how far away the assaulting unit is. This is clearly stated in the rules.
There are two clarifications to this rule:
1) Walkers can Overwatch (in the Walker rules);
2) Units inside a Transport that is being assaulted can Overwatch, using the firing ports of the Transport (in the Transport rules)

Also he can't disembark if he's moved 7" you can only get out if you have moved 6" or less red paint has no bearing on this.

This edition helped Orks in a number of ways I don't know why the guy was trying to change so many rules. To me it seems like he was the one creating.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Also he can't disembark if he's moved 7" you can only get out if you have moved 6" or less red paint has no bearing on this.

This edition helped Orks in a number of ways I don't know why the guy was trying to change so many rules. To me it seems like he was the one creating.

And with RPJ the vehicle could move 7" and count s moving 6". Since it counts as 6" an embarked unit can disembark.

Nah RPJ adds 1" to your movement it doesn't count as moving 1" less. You don't get to move 1" and count as stationary. The 6" disembark rule is not tied to combat speed so still applies to RPJ vehicles.

Ork vehicles with red paint jobs add +1 to their move in their Movement phase but do not incur penalties for this extra inch. For example a vehicle could move 13" and still count as moving 12"

 FlingitNow wrote:
Also he can't disembark if he's moved 7" you can only get out if you have moved 6" or less red paint has no bearing on this.

This edition helped Orks in a number of ways I don't know why the guy was trying to change so many rules. To me it seems like he was the one creating.

with red paint job you can disembark after moving seven read the entry in the ork codex you still act as you moved six or less.

It also says you "... do not incur penalties for this extra inch. For example, a vehicle could move 13 inches and still count as moving 12 inches."

Elric Greywolf wrote:

Snoipah wrote:

he doesn't want me to be able to overwatch if units are within 4 inches of my overwatching vehicles as a "House Rule".

I'm not quite sure what you're saying, or what he's saying, but I'll point this out:
Vehicles cannot Overwatch no matter how far away the assaulting unit is. This is clearly stated in the rules.
There are two clarifications to this rule:
1) Walkers can Overwatch (in the Walker rules);
2) Units inside a Transport that is being assaulted can Overwatch, using the firing ports of the Transport (in the Transport rules)

No, he wants to make it a rule where you cant overwatch if units are within 4 inches because he thinks its not fair that you are able to.

And that you're not allowed to overwatch if you've shot that turn, and you cannot overwatch rocket launchers, even if they are classified as assault.

He knows the rules dont say that, but he wants us to play that way because he says its not fair for assault heavy armies who spend 900 dollars to get wrecked by people who shoot them all day.

I think he just needs to mix his army, my army is diverse, has shooting and melee units and I've only lost once when I decided to do something new.

Snoipah wrote:

No, he wants to make it a rule where you cant overwatch if units are within 4 inches because he thinks its not fair that you are able to.

And that you're not allowed to overwatch if you've shot that turn, and you cannot overwatch rocket launchers, even if they are classified as assault.

He knows the rules dont say that, but he wants us to play that way because he says its not fair for assault heavy armies who spend 900 dollars to get wrecked by people who shoot them all day.

I think he just needs to mix his army, my army is diverse, has shooting and melee units and I've only lost once when I decided to do something new.

These, to me, are warning signs. He doesn't think it's FAIR?? What Your friend might be a great guy outside the game, but in WH40k it sounds like he's a bit of a sore looser.
The rules are playtested thoroughly before release, by some guys who have been doing this a long time. Admittedly, they let some pretty stupid stuff slide through...but still, they are professional game designers who do it for a living. Is your friend? No? Then he shouldn't be whining about fundamental game mechanics like Overwatch. Where did he get the 4" OW restriction? Why not 3" or 7"?

Trying to get rid of Overwatch in 40k 6th is like trying to get rid of Bombs in Stratego. "I don't like to use Miners! Bombs are unfair and always kill my Marshal!" Change your strategy!

My GK lists did not transition at all into their new codex (back in 2010). My Daemons just got a new codex, and my lists required a COMPLETE overhaul. Rules changes require list re-working.

***Here's something to try: make a rules change request of your own. Let him have the OW restriction, but tell him that you want to play so that models don't get extra attacks for having multiple CCW, and also don't get a bonus attack for charging. See how he likes that!

Elric Greywolf wrote:
***Here's something to try: make a rules change request of your own. Let him have the OW restriction, but tell him that you want to play so that models don't get extra attacks for having multiple CCW, and also don't get a bonus attack for charging. See how he likes that!

I don't want to turn this into a battle of rules, I just want to play warhammer 40,000, not BattleMace ManyMillenia, which is what it turns into if we go overboard with house rules.

Personally the only house rule I like is if the dice falls off the table, its a autoreroll, even if its a 6 or a 1.

Because having everyone look under the table to see the result is silly.

I would tell him that we're going to play by the rules in the rulebook, or there won't be a game at all.

 puma713 wrote:
I would tell him that we're going to play by the rules in the rulebook, or there won't be a game at all.

^^^^^^^^ This

Well talked to him today.

And although he said the part about the amendments stating changing the last paragraph to what puma said doesn't apply to the entire paragraph, I then stated that it says "the last paragraph" thus the part about "assault as normal" so he said somewhere else it says you can run and charge when you waaagh.

I then asked him if hes been to dakkadakka, he said sometimes but he goes to another site(i forget what he said) and I told him I asked you guys, he asked what you said, and I told him that you said you cant run and charge when you waaagh.

He said "then you cant, but it doesnt matter i dont play orks"

It feels bittersweet, I am glad I got him to agree, but I feel that he still doesnt believe I won fair and square.

The reason I'm so obsessed with this is because I dedicated every waking hour for an entire week to make a strategy to beat this army he said I couldn't beat.

I'd just, you know, like a pat on the back. I know that sounds selfish, but I'm only a 'umie

You should feel good Going up against a hard list, and then figuring out a way to conquer it, is one of the joys of wargaming. If there wasn't a challenge, it wouldn't be fun.

Elric Greywolf wrote:
You should feel good Going up against a hard list, and then figuring out a way to conquer it, is one of the joys of wargaming. If there wasn't a challenge, it wouldn't be fun.

Fought the hardest list I've ever fought today actually.

I was going against 2600 points worth of grey knights, as only 2000 points worth of orks.

I lost, but I gave him one hell of a fight. I got first blood by driving a battlewagon through a wall and then tank shocking with a deff rolla his guys that were behind the wall.

It was like Kool-Aid Man, just imagined all the boys yelling "OH YEAH"!

Snoipah wrote:
He knows the rules dont say that, but he wants us to play that way because he says its not fair for assault heavy armies who spend 900 dollars to get wrecked by people who shoot them all day.

Tell him that there are ways to work around Overwatch.

Charge the target unit with a disposable unit first, for one. Charge so that most of the enemy can't see your unit, for another.

Sounds like he needs to harden up and learn how to adapt. Complaining about the rules and wanting to add house rules just because he feels like the rulebook is "unfair" sounds childish to me.

 Cheexsta wrote:

Snoipah wrote:
He knows the rules dont say that, but he wants us to play that way because he says its not fair for assault heavy armies who spend 900 dollars to get wrecked by people who shoot them all day.

Tell him that there are ways to work around Overwatch.

Charge the target unit with a disposable unit first, for one. Charge so that most of the enemy can't see your unit, for another.

Sounds like he needs to harden up and learn how to adapt. Complaining about the rules and wanting to add house rules just because he feels like the rulebook is "unfair" sounds childish to me.

I don't believe overwatch to be as strong as people make it out to be.

Against lootas that end up rolling a 5 or a 6? Yeah it sucks.

Against standard shootaz? I rarely kill more than 2 people when I overwatch.

I kind of want to run lootaz, but that'd be cheap.

Snoipah wrote:

Elric Greywolf wrote:
You should feel good Going up against a hard list, and then figuring out a way to conquer it, is one of the joys of wargaming. If there wasn't a challenge, it wouldn't be fun.

Fought the hardest list I've ever fought today actually.

I was going against 2600 points worth of grey knights, as only 2000 points worth of orks.

I lost, but I gave him one hell of a fight. I got first blood by driving a battlewagon through a wall and then tank shocking with a deff rolla his guys that were behind the wall.

It was like Kool-Aid Man, just imagined all the boys yelling "OH YEAH"!

How was a 600 point difference justified?!?!

FenixZero wrote:

How was a 600 point difference justified?!?!

I WANTED A CHALLENGE!

I WANTED SPORT!


I've yet to play a game(until today) where I had a good hard challenge. That, and he didn't want to edit his 2600 list because it would take a while and it was printed out, not wanting to ruin his nice sheet of paper.

I personally enjoyed it, I killed a Dreadknight, a Dreadnaught, His HQ's squad(his HQ was still alive), Land Raider, and 2 Troop squads, and got first blood.

So I put a big dent into his army. Game was pretty much a tie of points killed, though he still had more points on the table due to said advantage.

Snoipah wrote:

Elric Greywolf wrote:
***Here's something to try: make a rules change request of your own. Let him have the OW restriction, but tell him that you want to play so that models don't get extra attacks for having multiple CCW, and also don't get a bonus attack for charging. See how he likes that!

I don't want to turn this into a battle of rules, I just want to play warhammer 40,000, not BattleMace ManyMillenia, which is what it turns into if we go overboard with house rules.

Personally the only house rule I like is if the dice falls off the table, its a autoreroll, even if its a 6 or a 1.

Because having everyone look under the table to see the result is silly.

Our house rule is if a die hits the floor on a roll, it's the worst possible result for the player who rolled it. After all, how can you expect your troops to hit anything if you can't even land a die on a table from a few inches above it. That and we were tired of other people losing our dice.

Haha, That would be very very bad for me Abandon I am a nightmare when it comes to rolling dice on the table....

 Abandon wrote:


Our house rule is if a die hits the floor on a roll, it's the worst possible result for the player who rolled it. After all, how can you expect your troops to hit anything if you can't even land a die on a table from a few inches above it. That and we were tired of other people losing our dice.

I've never lost dice and when I have to roll 40-ish dice at once sometimes one falls to the floor.

Snoipah wrote:No, he wants to make it a rule where you cant overwatch if units are within 4 inches because he thinks its not fair that you are able to.

Well boo-hoo-hoo

If your opponent isn't able to deal with overwatch, tell him to become a better general. That's the only solution.

And if you're playing at a 600 point deficit, then I think you should be given a 1 or 2 VP handicap to balance that out.

if you want fairness play checkers, 40k has not been a balenced game for all 6 editions. GW clearly states in many interviews and press releases. "We are a model making company, not a rule company." Play with whatever house rules you all agree on. We for instance got rid of irresistible force and miscasts in fantasy because they essentially made the game a coin flip rather than a battle of wits.

No, he wants to make it a rule where you cant overwatch if units are within 4 inches because he thinks its not fair that you are able to.

And that you're not allowed to overwatch if you've shot that turn, and you cannot overwatch rocket launchers, even if they are classified as assault.

He knows the rules dont say that, but he wants us to play that way because he says its not fair for assault heavy armies who spend 900 dollars to get wrecked by people who shoot them all day.

I think he just needs to mix his army, my army is diverse, has shooting and melee units and I've only lost once when I decided to do something new.

people like this is what makes me become a "rule shark" as ive overheard people calling me. I dont abide by the rules strictly because it gives me an edge, i abide by them because i am royally screwed over if i dont. When i was new one guy said all cover in 6th is a 5+ unless its an ADL you bought, which is a 4+. I was pissed because i play orks so i pretty much had no protection against his guns. Reading the rules, i then quoted 2 pages of cover rules to him the next game. No comment from him.

It isnt "fair" huh? Assaulty armies are screwed over enough, and you want to put houserules to jack them over more? Ha, i wouldnt play with that guy or at a table enforcing these rules. Overwatch part i am iffy on, as it usually applies to MY charge not MY overwatch, but its still bullcrap.

As for the OP: Everything has been covered but i kinda skipped the rest of the posts after this one since it pissed me off so much so i'll mention it. When hitting fliers without Skyfire, you fire snapshots. This means any ability that autohits (templates, autohitting spells, etc) cannot be used on them, and regardless of your normal BS you only hit on 6s. The FAQs talking about "autohitting abilities still autohit when firing snaps" is talking about other situations, not fliers, so ignore that for this point.

I do wish the game was fair, but thats impossible. Unless each race was owned by a seperate organization (therefore technically several several games that interact with each other) some races will get overlooked for things. MEQs are the posterchildren of 40k, so they get most the attention and always will. Sisters...poor poor sisters...lol
WH40K is pretty much about dick-kicking your opponent before he dick-kicks you, as funny/bad as it sounds. There are lines that if you cross youre labeled a WAAC, but those are pretty far to cross. I may be a rule shark but im not a WAAC meaning i am jumping through holes in the rulebook to benefit myself, i just quote rules so people dont "forget to mention" one to me.