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Hi! I'm a veteran Warhammer Fantasy player who has just begun playing 40k again and I am really struggling to come to grips with the new "Meta Game" and overall strategy of the 6th edition of the rules. I have been working on a Blood Angels army since the new Codex came out a few years ago and have just reached the point (in terms of owned, assembled painted models) that I can actually play some decent games and not just field "what I have." In any case, I have been getting my butt handed to me, especially when I try to run armies that are true to the Ideal of the Blood Angels (read "Fluffy")--aggressive close combat troops rushing (or jump packing) forward, and Death Company (it took me AGES to paint those guys...hate painting black) and DC Dreadnought being dropped into the heard of the battle by a Stormraven.

So, my issue is this: I bought the Blood Angels because I thought they looked cool, I liked the Fluff, and I have bought the models that GW sells for their army...and I keep getting annihilated! Long-ranged, mass, AP shooting is killing me before I can do anything, and Feel no Pain is not helping in the slightest. So, let's be honest: coolness aside, if I want to win a couple of games, what should I do, without compromising my identity as a Blood Angels player?

Just for your info, I have a pretty decent sized force:

- Dante, Mephiston, Captain in Terminator Armour, Chaplain and also Lemartes (but no Librarians)
- Honor Guard with Jump Packs
- Sanguinary Guard
- Terminators (including one Missile launcher)
- Close combat Terminators, which can be fielded in a number of combinations of Lightning Claws / Thunder Hammers, Storm Shields
- 3 Tactical Squads with any heavy weapons combinations you want--I painted them all
- 2 (one new...I am learning) Devastator squads, with 2 Lascannons, multiple Missile Launchers in there, along with the other options
- 10 Assault Marines with Jump Packs
- Rhino
- Razorback with TL Lascannon
- Furioso, Librarian, Death Company and "regular" (starter kit) Dreadnought
- Annihilator (all Lascannons) Predator
- Stormraven with MM, Hurricane sponsons, Assault Cannon
- Land Raider--Crusader or Redeemer (haven't assembled it yet!)
- Death Company with Jump Packs (yeah, I know...maybe this was a mistake)

Anyway, I have a ton of stuff; I just keep getting killed, and I want to have fun with my army (which getting killed does not accomplish too well) but not make my Blood Angels into an imitation of some other army.

So...master tacticians, what has worked for you? To Stormraven or not? Are Librarians now a must? Are Jump Packs just expensive devices to carry my men to their demise at an earlier date? How can I stop Flyers from just showing up and missile-ing all my men to death?

There have been quite a few threads lately debating the best way to play and win with Blood Angels, and I personally fall in the camp of not going too far on jump marines. The best ( imo only) hq option is a Librarian. Razorbacks are still pretty good. Furiosos are awesome...blah blah blah.

The idea of matching fluff to your army composition, though, sometimes gets short shrift from players like myself. However, in this case, it just takes a realignment of how the fluff looks. Strictly speaking, you'll have a pretty hard time winning with jump squads, Sanguinary Guard and Death Company. It can be done, but not as often as you want. CC is just not our friend, speaking broadly.

However, we can still embrace the "lightning fast" side of that fluff. Razorbacks, Baal and standard Predators, the Stormraven, and drop podded Furiosos are all fluffy, fast, and capable of winning. The thing is, you need to be a shooting army now. You just don't need to be non-fluffy to do so.

Thanks! I appreciate the insights, and I actually have been reading on the Forum about some of this debate. The Drop Pod option is definitely appealing to me more and more, either containing a shooty Furioso (I torched 5 Eldar War Walkers the other week with my Frag Cannon + Heavy Flamer Furioso, which was basically the only high point) or...what? Shooty Terminators? Sternguards?

Here's another question: what about a (Fast) Vindicator--get up there into range and blast stuff?

I hear you about Shooting, though; the game has definitely seen a pendulum shift in that direction.

DoA lists sadly are no longer viable at all, which is really sad cause not only did they used to be, they were also completely in line with the fluff.

Yeah, totally. So, what is Dante really good for in that case? I've only tried to use him once, and got totally blasted apart by Dark Eldar. Same goes with Lemartes--Jump Pack special characters who are costly just don't really fit into a competitive army list.

What do you think of the Sanguinor and Sanguinary Guard combos, like in the original White Dwarf battle report? Can they dish out some close combat, or will they just get vaporized by heavy weapons (the Dark Angels' twin-linked Plasma Guns spring to mind...)

I don't use special characters or Sang Guard so can't really comment. As mentioned Librarians appear to be the default HQ choice.

The biggest dilemma for me is the question of troops, while I've had some success with my jumping ASM they really don't bring enough shootyness. So would ASM in Razorbacks be better or our sub-standard tac marines in rhinos? The razorbacks are cool but easy to kill leaving you with a footslogging 5man squad or if you take tacs you can't give them a priest in the rhino or if you do (ie 9 man squads) you get no special weapons. *shrug*

As a side note I've found attack bike squads are great support units both in terms of bringing dakka to the table and as a support unit for my jumping ASM.

D

Can you choose just an atttack bike, or do you have to also have regular bikers? If so, can the twin-linked bolters on the regular bikes bring any real fire support? What heavy weapon do you use on the attack bike?

MM attack bikes are one of the few things that are truly great in the BA codex. Bikes in general are great for the BA now because of the jink/FNP combo.

I think it is demonstrably true that the BA no longer live up to the fluff in general. DoA itself was not a good scheme in 5th, even though it was legal, as the "dead turn" of no assault was usualy pretty brutal on the BA. But now even that is simply not legal. And assault in general has suffered, and the BA are no longer point-wise economical at all. There are simply too many units like grey hunters, CSM etc that can whip us in HTH.

Another of the true tragedies is that BA special characters (except maybe Tycho) are all basically terrible, and BA generic HQs don't have the equipment options of the vanilla marines, so they aren't any good either. So our HQs have been reduced to divination monkeys. Not exactly what I myself picture for the Sons of Sanguinius.

I just played a game against IG with SW allies win which I didn't score a single point. I was simply completely overwhelmed by the point efficiency of IG units (Vendetta, plasma vets) and the Space Wolves. His, list, for the same point level, has superior firepower and roughly equal HTH capability. I didn't play badly, I just didn't get to do much of anything.

You can take squads of 3 attack bikes per squad. Each bike can have a HB or MM & the twin-linked bolters, since there's two riders you can fire both weapons. Like I said they make pretty goos support units.

D

But more importantly, FNP and jink are an awesome combo on a T5 unit. You get two 5++ saves against non STR 10 fire. That's most weapons in the game. Plus plasma regular bikers can fire their plasmas and still assault.

the one thing i wish i had out of the the Blood angles codex as a vanilla marine player is the blood angles is the sheer mobility. my suggestion would be to use this to your advantage, Fast lascannon preds. Deepstriking landraiders with terminators (nothing says AHHHHHH like a land raider falling on you) dante and as much deep strike SHOOTY as you can. these are just my ideas, i dont own the codex and play C;sm and tau

Whether from a fluff or trying-to-win perspective, do not deep strike a land raider.

Seconded. Do not deep strike a Land Raider. Actually, don't deep strike anything not in a drop pod.

Mobility is a nice advantage, but the BA very dearly for it in 6th edition. What good is mobility if you can't when the fights when you get where you are going?

I disagree about deep-striking in general (though deep-striking a Land Raider is DEFINITELY a bad idea). With Descent of Angels, you have an easy and relatively safe way of dropping in cheap melta units (two in an Assault Squad, possible pistol on Sergeant) to take shots at vehicles' rear amour. Jump-packing Honour Guard with plasma guns are also a good way of getting rid of 2+ save units on the drop.
You could argue that Sternguard in a pod can do this role too, but they're not Troops and they're also usually vulnerable to being picked off very quickly after they strike since they can't hold their own in combat and can't get away quick enough.

Some other things we do really well as a Codex (I'll skip things that have already been mentioned):
Dreadnoughts. Lots and lots of Dreadnoughts. Sure, they're a bit weaker under 6th edition but that still won't console your opponent much when you turn up with 4 or 5 of them. Just make sure if you take them that you take them in numbers.
Vanilla Death Company with bolters are a surprisingly solid choice for a midfield unit - they have standard firepower, their base cost isn't THAT bad compared to other units but best of all, they will still murder many units in an assault.
Vanguard Veterans are fantastic if you can single out a shooting support unit that its buddies are too far away to help - the unit will only get one round of snap-firing Overwatch to defend themselves before being made useless for the rest of the game, either by being killed or by being tarpitted.

And to expand a little on Dante, since you asked - his ability to ignore scatter and the fact that he has Hit and Run can make him very useful in certain situations. But he simply costs too much to be worth taking for those alone.

Every BA mirror match where my opponent has used DoA, I have slaughtered them mercilessly. Getting a few if-come-maybe melta shots off is not worth putting your valuable space marines in vulnerable situations. Deep strike that does not involve drop pods and lots of dakka is crap. Take it to the bank; I do every time someone tries it.

Now Space Cheese (Wolves) deep striking in a huge amount of drop pods is damn nasty because they dakka the hell out of you, and then kill you when you charge them. I don't know why anyone thinks deep striking a list that needs to assault (BA) into a position to get assaulted is a good idea.

I usually deep strike my only jump unit with a pair of meltas and pop a tank before moving on. When I've done this against armies with little to no back field presence, this has gone well. Against IG, it has gone less well. It's something that I basically do out of habit and while it is more effective for me than for Martel (and his opponents) it is also something I need to do less.

Of course, I finally got some IG models now, so my list building option just got much better...

The problem is that two BS 4 melta shots don't have that great of a chance of killing a vehicle. I can't think of many vehicles that are so dire that I will suicide in 5 meqs to get a *chance* to kill. Most of the time, lascannons are safer and get more shots over the course of the game.

And opponents that aren't jelloheads will see the BA jump goobers in reserve and then bubble wrap the vehicles they really care about anyway.


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To answer the OP, you are kind of in luck in a way. The BA do more or less fine until they run into good lists that are trying hard to win. If you are playing purely for fun, then you don't need optimization advice. Most of the BA stuff is overpriced, but again, if you are not playing competitively, this matters not. Against good lists, played by a good player, the BA are not going to cut it in 6th without a new codex.

Hey, many thanks to all you fellows! I really appreciate the advice and observations, and you sharing your experience. I think I really need to just play some more games, tinker with my lists more, and prepare myself mentally to get killed sometimes. That's part of the game, and you CAN learn from losing, as long as you recognize what you have done wrong.

I really do think half my problem lies in deployment and movement, as my natural Fluffy tendency to charge forward seeking noble combat (or more likely ignoble death) is a pretty dumb one. I do think I have some people in my local club here in Jakarta that are up for having a "fun" game, so there is no shame in losing. Anyway, thanks a bunch.

Hey, one more question: Why the Divination power as a default for a Librarian HQ? Why not Biomancy for Mephiston? I am thinking this is just to amplify shooty-ness, yeah? Or is the default power useful in and of itself in case you roll lousy for what Psychic powers you get (a likelihood for me...)? My thought right now is to throw Mephiston in a Land Raider with some Assault Terminators and then roll out with some Biomancy powers (does he get 3, by the way?) and try to smash stuff up. Sound okay?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also...Hooray! I'm no longer Irradiated Baal Scum or whatever! My status is now...half not-terrible!

Because biomancy for Mephiston makes him slow. And divination is a force multiplier, and Mephiston is a just a one man beat stick that can't penetrate 2+ armor. For myself, the psychic hood nerf killed Mephiston for me. He's 250 points and doesn't even provide psychic defense.

Mephy also can't join the squad in the LR.

Divination has some great option but many people just go the the default power - Prescience which allows re-rolls on all to hit rolls (shooting and assault).

BA arecstill a fun army to play and you can win games with them, but they're no longer a top tier competitive army IMO.

D

BA can still be used effectively its just the two playstyles in 5th MSU and DOA have been nerfed pretty hard.

IMO the two ways to push the BA advantages are AV12+ vehicles or mass infantry with fnp. In either case mobility and durability are the strengths (no MEQ save ravenwing is as mobile or can spam FNP as effectively)

Land raiders and Stormravens are still hard to take down with the shift to str7 weapons and they allow the better assault units (terminators or DC) get where they need to be.

Otherwise for infantry a tactical squad with priest/librarian and 2-3 ML devastator squads will never do you wrong. 4 frag templates with rerolls to hit will almost always make their money back and 22 marines on a objective with FNP is a hard rock to move.

Besides that 3MM attack bikes with a priest attached is almost a standard "solid choice" (I thought they where in 5th but since the changes Landspeeders have gotten worse in comparison) and at least 1 RAS squad with melta is also a solid choice given the strength of DoA for popping a tank or contesting a objective.

For the HQ Librarians are the 'SOLID" choice as they have always been, outside of that Dante (only if you want SG), Mephiston (still somewhat cheese), Tycho (LD10 table wide and a ignore all armor i5 weapon) and super chaplin are still useful. Some people rage on mephiston but he is still the same beast we know, and just like 5th keep him away from ap2. Also Corbulo is worth his weight in gold if you keep him away from str8.

Given what you have
1x tactical plasma/plasma
1x RAS with melta
5x terminators in a stormraven
2x devestators
1x priest on foot
1x priest with jp or bike
+
get some MM attack bikes

is the start of a solid BA list for a take all comers approach.

In general, I agree with the above post, except that when good lists in the hands of good players want Stormravens to die, they die. That's why they can't be used to transport anything you care about other than maybe TH/SS terminators, but I want the option to assault on turn 1 if need be, not wait till turn 3. Waiting for stuff to arrive in 40K is a good way to lose your butt.

Well the Mephiston analysis is not quite right, imo In 5th, he was great against 2+ armor, just not TH/SS termies. Now the mighty 250 point libby struggles with a douche captain in artificer armor. He's too situational for a TAC list at his price point.

I guess the other option for BA is land raider spam.
You can get 5 land raiders, 4 scoring units, and a dread in a pod for 1850.

That's a lot of AV14.

-Matt

That is alot of AV14. What othrt units would you take though? There's over 1000 points tied up in Land Raider, which doesn't leave alot for dudes on the table.

D