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I saw a 2k point battle going on at my local GW between GK and Necrons and the Necron player's Destroyer Lord, who was attached to a unit of 6 Wraiths, moved into base to base contact with Draigo, issued a challenge which Draigo accepted and then popped MSS. Draigo failed his leadership test then roled a 4 on a D3, attacking himself twice. He proceeded to hit and wound himself once. The Destroyer Lord then wounded him 3 times, Draigo failing one invulnerable save and taking another wound.

In the GK opponent's round of combat, the challenge continued as normal with neither side causing any wounds, but on the Necron player's next turn he claimed that he could pop Mindshackle Scarabs again and force Draigo to once again take a 3xD6 leadership test. Was this accurate? I was under the impression that MSS only work on the turn the wielder charges into combat combat?

I looked up the codex FAQ but it only says:

Page 81 – Necron Wargear, Mindshackle Scarabs.
Replace the second paragraph with the following:
Change the first sentence to read “At the start of the Fight subphase,
after charges have been made, but before any blows are
struck, randomly select a non-vehicle enemy model in base
contact with the bearer of the mindshackle scarabs. That
model must immediately take a Leadership test on 3D6. If the
test is passed, the mindshackle scarabs have no effect. If the
test is failed, the victim strikes out at his allies. Instead of
attacking normally, he inflicts D3 hits on his own unit (or
himself, if on his own or in a challenge) when it is his turn to
attack. These hits are resolved at the victim's Strength and
benefit from any abilities and penalties from his Melee
weapons (the controller of the mindshackle scarabs chooses
which weapon he uses, if there is a choice). If he is still alive,
the victim returns to the owning player’s control once all blows
in that round of combat have been struck.”

His argument was that RAW it WAS the start of the fight sub phase, he HAD made a charge move (last turn, but he'd made one), and it WAS before blows were struck (in that game turn). He proceeded to kill Draigo.

Is this just a case of extreme rules lawyering or can MSS actually be used once per turn in the same assault?

It can be used each player turn in the Fight Subphase. SO he's gonna pop till you drop!


Don't forget your S10 against yourself too
And you have to use all fancy weaponry. So if you miss one, you gotta use Master Crafted. Not too sure if you have to pop your forceweapon, but Draigio has ew anyway so thats useless info anyway

Oh wow, so MSS go off at the start of each and every player turn that the model with the MSS is in combat? That's nasty...

No no, thats Necrons.

Mind you, you are using Grey Knights so you are equally filthy...

Haha I wasn't on this occasion, I was merely a spectator, but it's nice to know how the MSS actually work. The text would suggest that they pop on the charge only, so I appreciate the clarification!

Nah it happens after all charges, challenges and fear tests are resolved but before any blows are struck

No wonder all of the guys in my gaming group are terrified of them, I didn't realise that they were quite so potent. Even if they could only be used on the charge they'd be bad enough, but every round of combat thereafter until there's a winner? Jeez...

Necrons are full of cheese and croissants ... If that made a real life army potent, imagine how the world would quake in fear in front of the French army !

Be afraid of a French gun that was never used and only dropped once ?!?

Don't forget when you roll the D3 for hits that they are automatic hits and you only need to roll to wound (using all the special gear/weapons/rules from the model that succumbed).

Just building on from this (saves me opening up a new one on MSS) does a model attacking itself or its unit have to activate its force weapon if it can do?

Tiarna Fuilteach wrote:
Just building on from this (saves me opening up a new one on MSS) does a model attacking itself or its unit have to activate its force weapon if it can do?

It's the option of the Necron player if you have a warp charge available.
Check the Necron (iirc) FAQ.

Yeah, when I hear Necron players say their weakness is they aren't very good in assault, I just laugh at them.

Basic Necron warrior has the same WS, S, T as Marines, but also have access to so many hinky-ruled crypteks and character wargear that makes assaulting Necrons a losing proposition, and they claim assault is their weakness.

What's really disgusting is when the lightning field cryptek is combined with a MSS overlord. Not only are they going to kill your character, but they are also going to dish out a D6 S8 auto hits just for getting into base-to-base.

CC is our disadvantage but it is a small disadvantage. I usually round out things a little by using terrain to force traveling through difficult terrain when feasible. Our sergeants, lords and crypteks, limit our choices for HQ as well as cost more then most sergeants and their special wargear is more costly as well as only being able to field 2 per FoC. We pay for what we have.

Sv4+, A1 at Ini2. 1 warrior 13 pts, cryptek minimum 25 pts. 1 DA marine 14 pts and the unit includes the sergeant at 14 pts. So yes, Warriors are laughable at CC no matter the cryptek. Except if you think by "weakness in CC" it means that 2 marines should kill a full warrior + cryptek unit every time.

I'm working on a Grey Knight army right now, and I've decided to stick in a warding stave with each 10 man squad.
2+ ward in combat will absorb those shackles pretty well.

Likewise, psicannons mow down warriors stupidly fast.

-Matt

if i rememebr correctly the latest Necron FAQ does say that the player controlling the MSS can decide to activate the force weapon if it's available.

I used this in a game the other week and managed to get Sevrin Loth to smack himself to death with his Force Axe.

MSS is insane... literally makes a unit that is already good in HTH, in an army where HTH is supposed to be their achilles heel, better in HTH then anything else in the game (50/50 chance of that anyway)

the only abuse of it that I normmally see is the necron player choosing the model in BTB that is affected, when the rules tell them to randomly pick a model in BTB

keep in mind on your turn (not necron players turn)

since MSS i used at the start of fight phase, before blows are struck, and so are challenges issued, controlling players turn can decide the order all these things go off in

so you can say he has to use MSS, then you issue a challenge (on your turn OFC)

on his turn you are SOL

They are really godo when they work but they are nto the game breaker that peopel saythey are all the time.

Against armies with high-ish Ld (marines for example) the ld test is not that difficult to pass.

I's say my MSS tests go in my favour maybe 50% of the time. it also depends on what you;re fighting. if you use MSS on a terminator witha power sword then you're nto goign to do much harm as their own armour save will probably protect them.

In a terminator unit, what you're getting is a good chance of taking a dude out of the fight. A victory in its own right. Then the rending wraiths and destroyer lord all hit before your AP2 things.

If something like Draigo (or anything with an instant-death weapon) passes that MSS test, that destroyer lord could easily be down for the count.

It's a unit that isn't really scared of anything in 40K, but can lose to a lot of things too.

true. It will be pretty rare to find a model with both MSS AND an invul save.

The only invul save available to 'cron HQs is stupidly expensive. Most of the time you will find 'cron player depend on their T5/T6 and 2+ save.

If not in a challenge, you can look-out-sir over to the wraiths for a 3++. Otherwise you're hooped :-P

 Praxiss wrote:
They are really godo when they work but they are nto the game breaker that peopel saythey are all the time.

Against armies with high-ish Ld (marines for example) the ld test is not that difficult to pass.

I's say my MSS tests go in my favour maybe 50% of the time. it also depends on what you;re fighting. if you use MSS on a terminator witha power sword then you're nto goign to do much harm as their own armour save will probably protect them.

Math tells me that MSS can be very difficult to pass:

50% for ld 10
37.5% for ld 9
25.9% for ld 8
16.2% for ld 7

not only does its effect remove usually a character from combat more than half the time, but also does damage. Just not attacking is damaging enough to most characters.

 Gravmyr wrote:
CC is our disadvantage but it is a small disadvantage. I usually round out things a little by using terrain to force traveling through difficult terrain when feasible. Our sergeants, lords and crypteks, limit our choices for HQ as well as cost more then most sergeants and their special wargear is more costly as well as only being able to field 2 per FoC. We pay for what we have.

It's the potential 50-100% more attacks that marines can get and their natural armor save is equal or better than our standard troops as well. Not to mention marines can get AP3 weapons in their squads for MUCH cheaper than necrons.

MSS is really our saving grace for our less than stellar CC units and a great boon to more than stellar CC units. Just be glad that MSS can't go into every squad.

MSS will be nerfed to hell in the next Necron codex, so enjoy it while it lasts

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
MSS will be nerfed to hell in the next Necron codex, so enjoy it while it lasts

Yeah, you sit there and enjoy it for the remaining 4-8 years it have left, the nerfbat is comming!

Meh, can't be any worse than what we went through being at the bottom of the barrel through most of 5th. So yeah, I will save my opponent's tears to sustain me through the dark times that are sure to come again

 Maelstrom808 wrote:
Meh, can't be any worse than what we went through being at the bottom of the barrel through most of 5th. So yeah, I will save my opponent's tears to sustain me through the dark times that are sure to come again

Agreed. I remember those days...trying to find something worth using that wasnt a C'tan or Destroyer...

Royally feths me over if someone gets to use it against my Hive Tyrant, or Trygon, or Tervigon...


3d6 on LD 8 or 10 is still pretty hard to pass...

As a Necron and Nid player, I'll say that should rarely happen. Screen your big bads with a big tasty horde of gargoyles or gants. That lord will have a wonderful time MSSing one gant or garg while he and his unit get drowned in the mass of attacks. The d-lord/wraith unit is the only scary CC for the nids.