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Lords of Change aren't too bad, as they can get insta-deathed by Str 10.

How do you deal with two Bloodthirsters, however?

TWO Bloodthirsters?!
...bring the strongest cheese you have possible, seeing as your opponent has clearly done the same. :p

More seriously - a few things spring straight to mind...
Taking two 'thirsters means no other HQ choices, which also means no Heralds. So the Troops units should be easy enough to take out, and with that many points tied up in HQ there'll be less of them. Concentrate on Troops, grab all the objectives you can and sit back.
If the Bloodthirsters are swooping, any reasonable amount of fire will be able to ground them and most likely cause a Wound.
Lastly, there are specific units that are tough enough to keep them tarpitted for ages (large mobs of Ork Boyz so they remain fearless, TH/SS Termies, and so on).

For some more specific advice - what army/armies do you have and what do you have available for them?

I like to prepare for all eventualities.

I've found the answer: two Mortis Contemptors with Cyclones. 35 Points cheaper than BTs, and good against aircraft to boot.

Just try swooping in, motherfrakkers... BS 5 means you probably take 12 grounding tests in addition to the fire from the Kheres/Missiles.

Reread grounding tests. It says if a unit does 1 or more hits it takes 1 grounding test. Not 1 for every hit...

The answer to all Monstrous creatures: Sniper rifles. I've had units of scouts bring down FMCs and demon princes turn 1.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:Lords of Change aren't too bad, as they can get insta-deathed by Str 10.

How do you deal with two Bloodthirsters, however?

Lord of Change is T6 btw

Cheesedoodler wrote:The answer to all Monstrous creatures: Sniper rifles. I've had units of scouts bring down FMCs and demon princes turn 1.

Unless your snipers have skyfire somehow, it's not going to deal with flying monstrous creatures

Monstrous Creatures have trouble dealing with horde in general, baiting them into charging a fearless horde is a good way to take them out of the game for a few turns. Also use cover to your advantage because daemons don't have assault grenades. The obvious way to deal with flying MC in general is to ground them with small arm fire and then kill them with heavy weapon, Bloodthirsters are target practice for missiles. But depending on your opponent you could have 20 more seekers coming your way, in which case it's a matter of target priority.

Also use pre-measuring to your advantage to out-maneuver a swooping MC, force them to make bad landing and punish them for it, bubble-wrapping works well in this case because of MC's large base in general.

 BarBoBot wrote:
Reread grounding tests. It says if a unit does 1 or more hits it takes 1 grounding test. Not 1 for every hit...

Wait is this true??

at work with no brb, but if so I've been hosing myself.. :(

Any clarification on this???

Confirmed. If you take one or more hits, you make ONE grounding test. Awesome! Something to remember next time. This increases their survivability a small bit.

 zachwho wrote:

 BarBoBot wrote:
Reread grounding tests. It says if a unit does 1 or more hits it takes 1 grounding test. Not 1 for every hit...

Wait is this true??

at work with no brb, but if so I've been hosing myself.. :(

Any clarification on this???

Yes, it's true. Only 1 grounding per unit shooting, no matter how many shots by that unit hits. However, you can take multiple grounding tests from different units shooting. For example, if 5 different units shoot at your FMC and each of the units hit at least once, then your FMC would take 5 grounding tests.

Jy2, that's my daaawg!! Yes i totally understand the difference, but a unit of lootas can't light a fmc up and cause me to take multiple grinding tests, that's awesome.

The idea is to ground the FMC with one unit - THEN hit it with the rest of your shooting. So just use something boring and standard like bolters or lasguns that probably won't wound it, but from a unit that has enough shots so you're bound to get a 6. If it passes the test, repeat with another unit of boring firing.
Once it's hit the ground you don't have to Snap Shot at it any more, THAT'S when you let rip with heavier stuff and particularly with the Snipers.

Well grounding tests are less effective than I thought they were, but Mortis Contemptors have Skyfire and Interceptor if they don't move... 10 S6 Shots and 2 Missile shots should be enough to kill non-Iron Armed FMCs.

Lol just hit it. You don't have to actually wound it....A strength nine grounding check always works.

Shoot the FMC with any gun. Lasguns, pistols, drop pod SB etc..

Once it hits the ground, then you can gak/charge it to death.

LoCs are T6 dude, you must be thinking of DPs. And really, unless you're a Tau player (and even that is gonna change if the rumors are true) can someone please tell me where everyone is getting all these S10 ranged weapons that have suddenly made DPs "useless"???

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
LoCs are T6 dude, you must be thinking of DPs. And really, unless you're a Tau player (and even that is gonna change if the rumors are true) can someone please tell me where everyone is getting all these S10 ranged weapons that have suddenly made DPs "useless"???

Exactly.

People like to allude to rarely taken things all the time when they try to say something is useless. It's a pretty weak argument really, although one game having your 200 to 300 point unit take it in the face by a Broadside can put a bitter taste in anyone's mouth, regardless of how rare of an event that actually is.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
LoCs are T6 dude, you must be thinking of DPs. And really, unless you're a Tau player (and even that is gonna change if the rumors are true) can someone please tell me where everyone is getting all these S10 ranged weapons that have suddenly made DPs "useless"???

Exactly.

People like to allude to rarely taken things all the time when they try to say something is useless. It's a pretty weak argument really, although one game having your 200 to 300 point unit take it in the face by a Broadside can put a bitter taste in anyone's mouth, regardless of how rare of an event that actually is.

Like I said, if the new Tau rumors are true that wont be a problem anymore.

If Tau rumors are true flyer spam in all forms is in trouble.

8/1 ack ack is doom for av11/12 flyers. FMC don't care about ap1 since they never have better than a 3+, but they will probably also pack smart missiles or a secondary weapon.

Anyhow on blood thirsters. They are not 300 points of dangerous in the air, but they are after they land. I would say dump ack ack into them, if they ground great light them up. If not don't light them up just to light them up. Usually it's not the blood thirster that kills someone it's them dumping everything into it and not damaging the rest of the deamon army that gets them killed.

 schadenfreude wrote:
If Tau rumors are true flyer spam in all forms is in trouble.

8/1 ack ack is doom for av11/12 flyers. FMC don't care about ap1 since they never have better than a 3+, but they will probably also pack smart missiles or a secondary weapon.

Anyhow on blood thirsters. They are not 300 points of dangerous in the air, but they are after they land. I would say dump ack ack into them, if they ground great light them up. If not don't light them up just to light them up. Usually it's not the blood thirster that kills someone it's them dumping everything into it and not damaging the rest of the deamon army that gets them killed.

^THIS. I've seen it more times than I can count (and did it myself when I first started 40k):Novice players seeing some big nasty coming towards them, panicking and fired everything they got into it, ignoring the rest of the army which (especially if Nids or Daemons) is just as dangerous if not more so once it gets into assault. An experienced player knows that a FMC can only do so much damages per turn, and if it sweeps the unit its fighting (all but a sure thing now with DPs being I8 and Bloodthristers being I9) its now easy pickings your next turn.

Though of course this is the beauty of Daemonzilla lists, since you can potentially have 5 or 6 big nasties in the air and very few armies can deal with that.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
Well grounding tests are less effective than I thought they were, but Mortis Contemptors have Skyfire and Interceptor if they don't move... 10 S6 Shots and 2 Missile shots should be enough to kill non-Iron Armed FMCs.

Two batteries of three hyperios launchers cost about the same with better range.

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Though of course this is the beauty of Daemonzilla lists, since you can potentially have 5 or 6 big nasties in the air and very few armies can deal with that.

Is Daemonzilla working out for you? I've heard mixed reports on it.

 labmouse42 wrote:

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Though of course this is the beauty of Daemonzilla lists, since you can potentially have 5 or 6 big nasties in the air and very few armies can deal with that.

Is Daemonzilla working out for you? I've heard mixed reports on it.

I haven't played it, but with my GK I fought against a Tzeentch Daemonzilla list. I got tabled on turn 4.

HIT IT WIFF LOADSAH DAKKA!

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
I haven't played it, but with my GK I fought against a Tzeentch Daemonzilla list. I got tabled on turn 4.

Really?

Wow. I'm a little surprised to hear that. I would not have guessed them to be that good. I know you could bring this at 1850
250 - Bloodthirster
230 - Lord of Change
90 - Plague Bearers
90 - Plague Bearers
50 - 10 cultists
235 - Tzeentch Prince w/wings + armor
235 - Tzeentch Prince w/wings + armor
235 - Tzeentch Prince w/wings + armor
255 - CSM Khorne DP with axe of blind furby
80 points of gifts to spread around.

I just would not have thought it would have been all that awesome.. Sure, 6 FMCs sounds like a lot, but I can see lots of holes. T5 DPs just can't cut it in a lot of situations.

I might just try it once to see how it works out.

 labmouse42 wrote:

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
I haven't played it, but with my GK I fought against a Tzeentch Daemonzilla list. I got tabled on turn 4.

Really?

Wow. I'm a little surprised to hear that. I would not have guessed them to be that good. I know you could bring this at 1850
250 - Bloodthirster
230 - Lord of Change
90 - Plague Bearers
90 - Plague Bearers
50 - 10 cultists
235 - Tzeentch Prince w/wings + armor
235 - Tzeentch Prince w/wings + armor
235 - Tzeentch Prince w/wings + armor
255 - CSM Khorne DP with axe of blind furby
80 points of gifts to spread around.

I just would not have thought it would have been all that awesome.. Sure, 6 FMCs sounds like a lot, but I can see lots of holes. T5 DPs just can't cut it in a lot of situations.

I might just try it once to see how it works out.

The Problem was twofold for me, and it involved a lot of risk on my opponent's part part.

First off being that I knew in advance I was facing Daemons, so I tailored my GK for is (this is perfectly fine with my friends). I brought MSU Strike Squads, two lvl 3 Libbys with Dark Excommunication, and 3 dreadknights.

Second he went ALL OUT on the 2 LoCs and 3 DPs he brought. Mastery lvl 3, wings, Armor, gifts, the works. He spent what little points he had left on Flamers and Pink horrors, which weren't expected to do much, just tie me up (which they did.) 2 of his DPs managed to get Iron Arm, so for the rest of the game they were virtually unkillable. One LoC got misfortune which really messed my DKs.

Unfortunately my anti-air was severely lacking (all 3 DKs had swords and Heavy Incinerators). And the the new Vector Strik rules meant I was losing a t least one unit every turn. Also, he started all his units on the boards, which meant my warp quake was useless.

 zachwho wrote:
Jy2, that's my daaawg!! Yes i totally understand the difference, but a unit of lootas can't light a fmc up and cause me to take multiple grinding tests, that's awesome.

Regardless if any 1 unit can kill a FMC it'd be a unit of Lootaz, <3 those boyz.

I haven't fought against many deamon FMC but I do play Tyranids so I am familiar with the Tyranid FMC weaknesses. It might not translate 1-to-1 to Deamons but I think the basics are the same.

First is to focus on 1 at a time. If you try to take on multiple at a time, you wont get anywhere. You want to force as many tests as you can, whether it is grounding or armor saves. They are going to lose eventually.

Second, keep your units relatively close to each other. You want to maximize the number of units that are in range of an FMC at any one time. The more units in range, the more fire you can throw at a FMC, the more chances to fail armor saves. The speed of an FMC makes them really strong at picking off lone groups of units too, so you want them close so they can support each other.

Third is to shoot from small to big. Start with small arms fire first like lasguns, boltguns, etc. You don't have to wound or even be capable of wounding the target to force a grounding test. You just have to hit it. The idea is to use the weak stuff to force the grounding test, and once the grounding test is failed then you still have your heavy weapons to fire at it to cause the wounds.

 shamroll wrote:
I haven't fought against many deamon FMC but I do play Tyranids so I am familiar with the Tyranid FMC weaknesses. It might not translate 1-to-1 to Deamons but I think the basics are the same.

First is to focus on 1 at a time. If you try to take on multiple at a time, you wont get anywhere. You want to force as many tests as you can, whether it is grounding or armor saves. They are going to lose eventually.

Second, keep your units relatively close to each other. You want to maximize the number of units that are in range of an FMC at any one time. The more units in range, the more fire you can throw at a FMC, the more chances to fail armor saves. The speed of an FMC makes them really strong at picking off lone groups of units too, so you want them close so they can support each other.

Third is to shoot from small to big. Start with small arms fire first like lasguns, boltguns, etc. You don't have to wound or even be capable of wounding the target to force a grounding test. You just have to hit it. The idea is to use the weak stuff to force the grounding test, and once the grounding test is failed then you still have your heavy weapons to fire at it to cause the wounds.

Yeah I agree with you that's the only way to actually take down FMCs effectively, it seems pretty scenic too, if you were fighting a dragon the last thing that you'd want to do is split up and get picked out one by one. Stick together put it down in 1 go.

But if the FMCs start grouping together then you have a problem...

Scary monstrosities. The same holds for flying DPs.
The Nurgle variant is more survivable than the other ones. A smart player will let their swooping end over terrain. If grounded, they'll make no test for dangerous terrain (thanks to move through cover given to all MCs) and get shrouding (in general, a 3+ cover save).

Last night a HS daemon FMC with Black Mace and NO Pyker powers flew straight at my Lootas and Shoota Boyz. Shootas caused him to land and 1 wound and then 8 Lootas caused 4 wounds which he saved all of them. His turn he walks closer and charges the 25 Boyz but not the closer Lootas in cover. He rolls a 3" charge but Boyz over watch finishes him off.

T5 just isn't good enough. Nids worry me with T6+.

Now I look forward to T5 FMC. Means less points elsewhere and his damn Hell Turkey can't roast me when I'm tied up in CC.