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Yeah, so I might be trading some of my stuff for some dark Eldar soon. I'll be receiving the battle force box and a raider, so of course I'll have to add some things to this.
Let's say I aim at a 1k army list to begin with. What could I do with what I'll get, and should I add to it, and most importantly : why ?
Thx for all your answers

DE really need venoms to win games these days. Cheesy beastpacks arent bad either.

The codex took a huge nerf in 6th edition but can still be effective if you depend on the few units that got better.

I don't agree about NEEDING Venoms to win. Venoms are an amazing vehicle, but if you are dedicated to learning how the whole army works, and you don't mind losing quite a lot of games until you figure them out, pretty much everything has it's uses. Mandrakes and the Court of the Archon were laughed at in 5th, so they didn't really get nerfed any. The only thing that I consider to have been nerfed is Wyches. Khornate25, how do you want your DE army to play?

^What he said a thousand times! The DE have a wealth of builds, some are fun, some are competitive, some are both. I haven't played as DE in years, but I constantly play against them so when I recommend units it's because I hate to see them on the other side of the field.

Venoms - with a Blasterborn squad inside and double SCs this is a brutal unit. I always recommend spending the extra points for the second SC, who doesn't want 12 shots that wound on 4+?

Scourges - I haven't seen many people talking about them, but these guys are sick. 4 special weapons in the squad, but you'd have to work to convince me that anything is better than the Haywire Blasters, effectively range 36" haywire guns (move + range) that by the numbers should drop a vehicle per turn no matter what the AV is.

Razorwing - Good flyer with great ground attack options. Against other flyers you get 2 DL shots, not great, not the worst. Against ground targets the missiles and SC can come into play and cut holes in armies. Put a flickerfield on it and you've got a 5++ instead of evading

Talos - Doesn't fit every list because it's slow (for DE), but when it gets there oh does it cause havoc. Charged one with a Dread once, once, and took my Dread off the table shortly afterwards. Won't make that mistake again.

Biggest thing to remember with the DE is that (barring beast swarm lists) you are the epitome of glass cannon in 40k. Wyches die in the open, Warriors are pretty crunchy in CC, your heavy vehicles are AV11 and one unit has armor better than 4+. DE are a scalpel army, not a hammer. Trying to beat someone head to head is the fastest way to get fed up with the army. Lay traps, be mobile, get in your opponents head these are the ways of the DE and the path to victory.

 Exergy wrote:
DE really need venoms to win games these days. Cheesy beastpacks arent bad either.

The codex took a huge nerf in 6th edition but can still be effective if you depend on the few units that got better.

I can only think of 3 things that really hurt DE.
#1 Change to power weapons to remove good AP2 in close combat
#2 Unreliable assault paired with overwatch
#3 Changes to FnP which affect T3 models more.

okay guys, so I've made this list according to wht you advised me. Wadda ya think of it:

Archon : Agoniser, Shadowfield, Ghostplate armour
Total : 120
Trueborn x5: Dark Lance x1, 3x Shredder
Venom
Total: 155
Trueborn x5: Dark Lance x1, 3x Shredder
Venom
Total: 155
Warriors x10 : Dark Lance
Raider
Total : 180
Whyches x9 : Razorflails, Haywires Grenades
Raider
Total : 178
Scourges x5 (110) : Haywire Blaster x2
Total : 130
Reavers x3 : Blaster
Total : 81
Total : 999

I'm actually in favor of the Shredders in the Venoms, with one condition, and that's that you change the Dark Lance into a Blaster. The blaster compliments the Shredder's short range. It's a bit unorthodox to run Shredders, but I think it has flare, and the Shredders can always be converted into Blasters if it doesn't work out...

I'd have to speak against your trueborn configeration. Dark lances are terrible in transports, because if you move at all (and you do want to for jink) then they only hit on 6's. Try the well and trusted blastersborn, you COULD try shredders or heck, go shardborn by getting as much splinterfire as possible, and adding the duke.

I practically done a list like this (same models, different upgrades) and the only unit that dissapoints me are the reavers. 3d3 bladevane hits wont put a dent in anything, and a single blaster is bearly ever worth the try. I find they give up first blood WAY to easy and even when turboboasting they are only as tough as 3 marines.So i'd surrgest taking the DL out of all squads, change trueborn to all of one weapon, and add splinterwracks to your warrior raider. Dam they are good. Also you should probabilly swap the archon to the Duke, start with warriors on the ground, then walk and jump on with the wyches so warriors get 3+ to wound re-rolling to hit awesomeness, and the wyches get the david bowie of the space elves. His drugs ability really help with the wyches, and he aint no slouch in combat either.

Ok , so how about :

Duke
Total: 150

Trueborn x5: Blasterx4, Shard Carbine
Venom
Total : 180

Trueborn x5: Blasterx4, Shard Carbine
Venom
Total : 180

Warriors x9 : Blaster (Duke goes in here)
Raider : Splinter Racks
Total: 166

Wyches x10 : Razorflails, Haywires grenades
Raider
Total : 190

Scourges x5 : Haywire Blaster x2
Total : 130

Total : 996

 minigun762 wrote:

 Exergy wrote:
DE really need venoms to win games these days. Cheesy beastpacks arent bad either.

The codex took a huge nerf in 6th edition but can still be effective if you depend on the few units that got better.

I can only think of 3 things that really hurt DE.
#1 Change to power weapons to remove good AP2 in close combat
#2 Unreliable assault paired with overwatch
#3 Changes to FnP which affect T3 models more.

str4 exploding vehicles hurt a lot too.
no assault after running(fleet). The codex was built with so many bonuses to run distances and rerolls to runs all on assault units, so they could close the gap. Now, to run they have to be in the open and get shot to pieces several times over.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Drake118 wrote:
I'm actually in favor of the Shredders in the Venoms, with one condition, and that's that you change the Dark Lance into a Blaster. The blaster compliments the Shredder's short range. It's a bit unorthodox to run Shredders, but I think it has flare, and the Shredders can always be converted into Blasters if it doesn't work out...

why not run 4 shredders or 4 blasters. mixing and matching is silly

What you really need to think of though, does the venom need any more anti infantry? (Shredder), I suggest the same as the 1d4chan tactics page does, don't spend points on units that will have the same purpose as the transport, blasters in venoms are so loved because of their versatility and high damage output against damn near anything. Yes the shredder is str 6, but I think The ap - works against it, that's just my general opinion on the shredder thing. Also, I'd suggest sticking wyches in venoms if you go vehicle hunting, and with the haywire grenade it looks like you are going to. Generally you inky need a minimum squad to take out dreadnoughts, just don't forget to through a grenade in the shooting phase too, that has saved my nearly toasty behind many a time... but yes. All in all a well rounded list you have there, just make sure you aren't footslogging anything that could be better if stuck in a transport. Just my two cents

Thats a much nastier list. There are only a few trimmings i could surgest. The 5th trueborn without a blaster isn't needed, and if you really want, neither is the 4th. I find 3 gets the job done, but 4 has more anto marine/Teq threat. Trueborn can come in squads of 3, 4 is fine, but the 5th body doesnt have any uses. If the venom explodes, that extra body isnt that helpful, and the unit wont be much good then anyway.

The blaster in the warrior squad isn't really helping. Think, if you shoot your blaster as a vehical your wasting your amazing AI shooting. Also the duke is better joining the wyches, although he has to start with the warriors. Heres how it works. Start both units outside, but next to there transports. 10 warriors and the duke near to wyches. Duke leaves squad, they still keep poisen,joins wyches to benifit from his CC abilities and shadowfield., which will do no good with the warriors. They then jump in the raider and get about there buissiness. That way you get the most out of the duke, insted of just his abilities.

This means you have to drop at least one wych, but i'd surgest dropping 3. That way you can get a Hekatrix to eat up challenges for the duke, allowing him to get to buissiness. The extra bodies will only make it a more expensive target in an av10 open topped vehical, also it might make the unit *TOO* killy. You want to whipe the enemy out in his turn, so you avoid being shot at. With the excess points you can add nightfields to the warriors gunboat to minimise returning bolterfire and an extra splintercannon for each venom. That is an awesome list, have fun with it IN the end it would look like this.

Duke
Total: 150

Trueborn x4: Blasterx4, Venom

Trueborn x4: Blasterx4, Venom

Warriors x10 :
Raider : Splinter Racks+nightfields

Wyches x7 : Razorflail, Haywires grenades, Hekatrix w/ agoniser .Raider (duke ends up here)

Scourges x5 : Haywire Blaster x2

Total : 998

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

Duke
Total: 150

Trueborn x4: Blasterx4, Venom

Trueborn x4: Blasterx4, Venom

Warriors x10 :
Raider : Splinter Racks+nightfields

Wyches x7 : Razorflail, Haywires grenades, Hekatrix w/ agoniser .Raider (duke ends up here)

Scourges x5 : Haywire Blaster x2

Total : 998

The duke must start the game with a unit of warriors or trueborn, hence he and the warriors have to start the game on foot, where they can get shot then the duke must detach on your first turn join the wyches and the warriors must embark on the raider meaning neither of your squads can move more than 6" on your first turn.

Also why are you taking scourges with haywire blasters?

much better to take a list like this

Baron
125 5 warriors, blaster venom double cannon
125 5 warriors, blaster venom double cannon
156 8 wyches, naked other than grenades raider
162 6 reavers with cluster caltrops arena champ
115 Ravager with night shield
788
Then you can add what you like, 2 more ravagers? 4 trueborn with blasters in a raider and a haemoculus with the wyches? Tons of options

Whats the Baron for? There is nothing for him to go with unless you spend the extra points on say a beastpack (which is an AMAZING unit this edition). Also he says in the OP that he is getting the battleforce and a raider, Although i think he also infers he is getting scourges with his insistence on using them. Also haywire blasters are amazing weapons this edition, being able to stip hull points for a lance to finish it off.

Your wyches wont do much dmg with out an IC, and if your using them as AT, well you just dont need that. If your looking for an assult unit wouldn't a archon w/ incubi be better then a lone Baron and a few wyches? Also while reavers are a great unit, i find cluster caltrops to be unneeded. They are AI in an army which doesnt need it, it also makes you NEED to turbo boast to get your points worth. To me reavers are more mobile AT and the best heat lancers, i just use bladevaning when getting into position. Its a bonus, not a play style.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Whats the Baron for? There is nothing for him to go with unless you spend the extra points on say a beastpack (which is an AMAZING unit this edition). Also he says in the OP that he is getting the battleforce and a raider, Although i think he also infers he is getting scourges with his insistence on using them. Also haywire blasters are amazing weapons this edition, being able to stip hull points for a lance to finish it off.

Your wyches wont do much dmg with out an IC, and if your using them as AT, well you just dont need that. If your looking for an assult unit wouldn't a archon w/ incubi be better then a lone Baron and a few wyches? Also while reavers are a great unit, i find cluster caltrops to be unneeded. They are AI in an army which doesnt need it, it also makes you NEED to turbo boast to get your points worth. To me reavers are more mobile AT and the best heat lancers, i just use bladevaning when getting into position. Its a bonus, not a play style.

the baron goes with the reavers, giving them stealth and CC punch. While the reavers are blande vaning he can hide behind a raider or go off and assault a tank.

I dont see how haywire blasters are "amazing" particular on a unit that comes with shard carbines. You waste all those splinter rounds when firing at tanks, then you have 2 shots, 1.33 hit, 1.11 glance. Nothing special for 130 points. Stripping off hull points doesnt make it any more likely a lance will finish it off other than the vehcile now has less hull points so if the lance fails it will be closer to glancedeath.

wyches wont do anything in assault anyway, they are there to take out tanks or hold up enemy units while you shoot the rest of the army

Reavers are terrible anti tank, but great anti infantry. 6 of them with the clusters is 2d6(av 7) str6 hits and 4d3(av 8) str 4 hits. Against T4 that is just about equal to 2 venoms(4 splinter cannons) worth of firing. Against T3 it's nearly the same as 3 venoms firing. In this edition with HoW they are pretty good in CC too.

So those reavers bladevang does 6 wounds from caltrops (2 kills) on marines and 4 wounds with normal blades (1 and a 1/3 kills). 3 Marines dead, que round of applause. Admitedly it does miles better against guard or orks, but are we in need of more ways of killing such? Especially at that price.

The baron will never keep up with the reavers, as to make there points back the WILL be bladevaning every turn.So yeah, thats a free warlord point. Also reavers make good AT because they are another threat of AT. A unit of 6 with 2 heatlances will make any vehical sweat, and any shots into them arn't into your raiders. A unit of reavers gives a 21 inch vehical deathzone, not bad at all when backed with blaster warriors, blasterborn, voidraven and ravagers for target saturation.

If wyches wont do anything in assult, then i querry why are you taking them? When you could go for warriors in a venom with a double cannon.

Its about making the most out of the models he has. He obviously has scourges and wants to use them. Haywire is the best weapon avalable to them (i dont like blasters on scourges, if you want blasters you get them cheaper elsewhere) with a 36 inch threat range. And the turn you half kill a land raider will diffinatly annoy your enemy. If he had the models of course i would surgest the venom spam and ravager spam army, but he hasn't. And the list he has isn't half bad at all.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
So those reavers bladevang does 6 wounds from caltrops (2 kills) on marines and 4 wounds with normal blades (1 and a 1/3 kills). 3 Marines dead, que round of applause. Admitedly it does miles better against guard or orks, but are we in need of more ways of killing such? Especially at that price.

3 wounds is pretty good on a unit of long fangs or devistators. Particularly as it gets around those 2+ save characters that can be up front tanking. Better than a venom that only does 1.66 dead marines, but yes venoms are amazing anti infatry

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

The baron will never keep up with the reavers, as to make there points back the WILL be bladevaning every turn.So yeah, thats a free warlord point.

Bladevane behind the enemy, bladevane back and link up with the baron, next turn shoot and assault. The baron is alone for 1 turn, where he sits behind LOS blocking terrain or a vehicle. Not exactly a free slay the warlord. Running off to kill a tank, well you have to make sure killing the tank is worth it and that proper reprisal wont kill him, but he is very versatile.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

Also reavers make good AT because they are another threat of AT. A unit of 6 with 2 heatlances will make any vehical sweat, and any shots into them arn't into your raiders. A unit of reavers gives a 21 inch vehical deathzone, not bad at all when backed with blaster warriors, blasterborn, voidraven and ravagers for target saturation.

21 inch death? You mean like SM attack bikes with multimeltas have 24" deathzones or regular bikes/assault marines with meltaguns have 18" deathzones? That isnt tha impressive. Further the heatlance is better than a meltagun by 6" but is 2 points of strength worse than a meltagun. Outside of the melta half range, they are pretty worthless while meltaguns and multimeltas can threaten light armor at full range. Also even with the 2d6, with only str6 you arent assure a pen against medium armor. a fair number of 2d6 rolls are 6 or less, and just barely glancing av12-13 will rarely do what you want. You often will miss, then sometimes fail to pen, then occationally fail to explode. Further 2 heat lances on reavers is 132 points. 5 assault marines with 2 meltas is 120? 3 bikes with 2 meltaguns is 90 points. Very expensive for less survivable, less reliable anti tank that isnt even that popular

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

If wyches wont do anything in assult, then i querry why are you taking them? When you could go for warriors in a venom with a double cannon.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
5Warriors in venom wont hold up a unit for even 1 turn. Sometimes you just need to hold something up for 2 turns.
Its about making the most out of the models he has. He obviously has scourges and wants to use them. Haywire is the best weapon avalable to them (i dont like blasters on scourges, if you want blasters you get them cheaper elsewhere) with a 36 inch threat range. And the turn you half kill a land raider will diffinatly annoy your enemy. If he had the models of course i would surgest the venom spam and ravager spam army, but he hasn't. And the list he has isn't half bad at all.

scourges are best with spinter cannons, as then they effectively are an anti infantry threat. Haywire blasters are a novel concept, but assault 1 just doesnt cut it. Look how the Newcrons have a haywire weapon that is assault 4 and it is only sometimes taken.

Heat lance is well....a lance. Meaning it NEVER needs more then a 6 to pen any AV in the game. Not bad. They also can easily get to side armour. Its 132 pts for one of the fastest melta's in the game, a bonus bladevane first turn when getting into position and a threat that HAS to be dealt with.

Ok, even if the Baron isn't a free Warlord point, what is he that others arnt? a simple archon is better at killing infantry, the barons tank killing prowess (LOL) isnt to be relied on at str 6, not to mention he will almost certainly die next turn. Any dedicated assult unit will laugth of a reaver assult, but nothing short of 30 boyz will laugth of an incubi one. Heck, even the duke is better for reavers, helping them get a good drug roll. All the Baron gives them is stealth first turn, which since they can reach across the bored, can be easily mitagated by putting them behind LOS bocking terrain. And who says they dont die when the first bladevane? You never know when theres a hidden flamer, or even a few boltguns. You are only as tough as a marine when turboboasting to a bolter.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:

Ok, even if the Baron isn't a free Warlord point, what is he that others arnt? a simple archon is better at killing infantry, the barons tank killing prowess (LOL) isnt to be relied on at str 6, not to mention he will almost certainly die next turn. Any dedicated assult unit will laugth of a reaver assult, but nothing short of 30 boyz will laugth of an incubi one. Heck, even the duke is better for reavers, helping them get a good drug roll. All the Baron gives them is stealth first turn, which since they can reach across the bored, can be easily mitagated by putting them behind LOS bocking terrain. And who says they dont die when the first bladevane? You never know when theres a hidden flamer, or even a few boltguns. You are only as tough as a marine when turboboasting to a bolter.

The Baron:
+1 to go first
assault and defensive grenades
Hit and run
Stealth
Cheap Mobile Shadowfield
He is awesome


There is no hidden flamer, you see it or your not playing well. Secondly, marines are pretty tough against Bolters. A full tac squad in rapid fire range. 20 shots 13.3 hits, 6.66 wounds, 2.22 dead. Slightly more deadly than a venom, which will kill 1.66. Getting these guys FNP it pretty easy though, as they deal signifigant damage to infantry at range. Then you are even more survivable.

Exergy I gotta disagree with you here on Scourges and Reavers.

Scourges should be AT not AI. If we're trying to pump out splinter shots there are better platforms. With the Haywire Blaster (I love/hate 4 in 10 man squad) you've got 4 shots that are S4/AP4 against troops, but Haywire against vehicles. Hitting on 3s and glancing on a 2+ can easily drop any 3HP vehicle in one round of shooting. If you run them at full squad strength they can take a bit of shooting 4+/6++ isn't great, but you get saves against bolters. If you run them as 5 Scourges w/4 Haywire they're crunchy, but you should get 1 if not 2 rounds of shooting out of them, more than enough to crack open a gunline or slow/stop a mech charge.

Reavers with bladevane/caltrops/grav talon just don't scare me. To attack with them you're committing to a long move, questionable wounding, and leaving yourself as a ripe target. If instead you spend the points on a blaster that's another small AT unit that can absorb more fire than it should. That also takes advantage of the 6" assault move, just beyond cover during movement, take your shots, out of LoS in assault. And shoud your opponent choose to ignore the unit because hey it's only three bikes, then you should be all over his rear armor

Are 4 haywire blasters really worth it compared to blasters or heat lances?
4 shots = 2.66 hits = 2.2 hull points a turn.
For a squad that costs more than a land raider, that doesn't seem that impressive unless I'm missing something.