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Hello,
I am planning to start beastmen army but I do not know what units I should include so I am asking more experienced beastmen players ( other army's collector's feedback is also welcome ) what units are the best to include. I should also add that I love Minotaur models and I'd like to know if they are any useful and if yes how?

Charriots... Charriots and more charriots.

2 chariots, 2 harpies, 4 ungor, 2 solo razorgor. 50 gor, 30 bestigor, level 4, beastlord, bsb, 2 level 1s. There.

Minotaurs require one build. The minobus. That requires all your points and makes the rest of the army less effective.

 thedarkavenger wrote:
2 chariots, 2 harpies, 4 ungor, 2 solo razorgor. 50 gor, 30 bestigor, level 4, beastlord, bsb, 2 level 1s. There.

Minotaurs require one build. The minobus. That requires all your points and makes the rest of the army less effective.

This pretty much and by 4 ungor I believe he means 4 units of 5 raiders. I also like 3 level 1s, 2 don't cut it IMO.

The previous posts look good. I have also been looking into playing Beastmen again. The magic and manuverability, always seems to surprise people. I like the Minotaur based armies, but as it was said they do chew through points fast. They can be really good and even almost unstoppable at times, but that army isnt always the best choice.

What was already suggested is an excellent way to set up the army, in my opinion. Also I have seen and found that 3 level 1s can be good at times.

From what I've been reading over the last few days... Gors, Bestigors & Razorgors. Other units have their place, but these are the backbone of the army.

Getting it done
Gors, Bestigors, Lvl4 death, shadow or beasts, level 1 shadows (with stone). "The DOOMBULL" (swift ram build)

Support
Beasts BSB

Assassins/Chaff
Razorgors and chariots

Chaff Only
Ungor Raiders, Harpies

Fun
Gorghon, Giant

Everything else is pretty unplayable, I have heard of some luck with Jabbers but in my experience they are too expensive for their realatively weak stat line and abilities.

I am about to break your heart.

As a Beastmen player for years now, minotaurs, as great as they look on paper, they are so bad for your army it's depressing and nigh unviable. They are so expensive it's ridiculous.

Lets say you want a unit of 3. You probably will take a FC and maybe an extra weapon/shield. That costs 231 points. For 3 models.

Aside from what others are saying I seriously disagree. Beastmen have been played wrong because everyone saw them as a skirmish army and engage from flanks. No. Beastmen is really a horde army. And they are designed for this edition.

The idea with Beastmen is to overwhelm your opponent. Armor in Numbers Strength in One.

Beastmen are brutal by them selves but die in droves. If you want to be competitive you need a ton of units of 30 gors or ungors and generally one big horde of ungors. And generally you take one or two units of Bestigors.

These units are effective and what's really nice is that they are all in the core box.

Cygors generally are the best monster to take. They have done the best for me atleast for anycommers.

I love taking 3 level 1 wizards and giving them all lore of beasts signature wysens. You can almost always get two of them off each turn. And theres always that lucky 3 and you just need the third if he gets picked off.

And all you need is just a standard wargor for a bsb.

This strategy is by far the most competitive I have gotten. You adjust gors and ungors depending on what you're up against. Ungors are better for elites gors better for hordes.

Dense wrote:
Cygors generally are the best monster to take. They have done the best for me at least for anycommers.

Really? Explain

 Flashman wrote:

Dense wrote:
Cygors generally are the best monster to take. They have done the best for me at least for anycommers.

Really? Explain

I was going to ask this but after reading the entire post decided it was a late April fools joke. No herdstone, three level 1 beasts castings a 9+ spell because of beast bonus. That requires a magic phase of 9 dice to get it off on average never mind you will be facing a level 4 on the other side most likely that can shut you down.

 Flashman wrote:

Dense wrote:
Cygors generally are the best monster to take. They have done the best for me at least for anycommers.

Really? Explain

I'm inclined to agree with Dense. I've had a LD10 sorceress be kept out of the most crucial magic phase which cost me the game due to cygors. Twice. And I've also killed a ghorgon before it got to attack, more times than I can recall.

so because you failed an ld 9 or 10 test probably rerollable it makes a cygor useful. You realize the math on that is like once every 3 games assuming no reroll and the cygor stays alive and in range the entire game, and if you can kill a ghorgon you can easily kill a cygor, lower T and W. none of the monsters in the beastmen book are considered competitive. The cygor is widely considered to be unplayable. Sure losing a caster in a critical magic phase to an ld test is bad but it is very unlikely and doesn't come close to justifing the cygors 275 point cost.

tgf wrote:
so because you failed an ld 9 or 10 test probably rerollable it makes a cygor useful. You realize the math on that is like once every 3 games assuming no reroll and the cygor stays alive and in range the entire game, and if you can kill a ghorgon you can easily kill a cygor, lower T and W. none of the monsters in the beastmen book are considered competitive. The cygor is widely considered to be unplayable. Sure losing a caster in a critical magic phase to an ld test is bad but it is very unlikely and doesn't come close to justifing the cygors 275 point cost.

I think you are also missing the fact that the Cygor is a stone thrower. The anti magic is really just icing on the fact you have a completely mobile stone thrower that is a mediocre rampant monster who is nice to have on flanks. Gorgons are alright but my problem with them is he never goes where I want him to. Generally he gets tarpitted or takes a cannon shell or two to the chest and when he gets in combat he's not tough enough to sit for a while. I think, by reading your post, I think you're looking at the cygor in a wrong manner. His utility isn't to go rofl stomp in close combat. He is made to suppress and support and does a damned good job of it. His ability isn't just meant for what it does it's psychology. If you keep measuring every time he moves a caster to make sure and keep moving him to be in range of the casters, I have had people not cast because he is in range. If you talk it up like a big deal people will see it as a big deal. The problem with gorgon there is no way to talk it down. "It's gon kill me so I gon kill it or I'm gon avoid it."

Tl: Dr I like the cygor because it is a great psychology unit and doesn't need to charge to do damage.

Even as a stone thrower i think the Cygor is hard pressed to get 275 points worth of value in 6 turns.

tgf wrote:
Even as a stone thrower i think the Cygor is hard pressed to get 275 points worth of value in 6 turns.

I guess it really comes down to your style of play. I make it work pretty well but I can't make gorgons do all that much for me. You seem to be able to make gorgons do wonders for you but can't really find a place for Cygors. I think it comes down to preference.

I'm with tgf on the ghorgon over the cygor, to make cygors useful you need to be a very good player. For a new player your asking a bit much don't ya think?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Thats not meant to come across as patronising by the way mate, I wish ya all the luck in the world with beasts just it took me two years to get the hang of him, and even them its build dependent. In herdstone spam he is meh....and thats the best I've seen him

I gave you the wrong impression as well, my ghorgon dies all the time and rarely pays for himself, all the beastmen monsters are in that boat. I just play him in friendly games because he is by far my best looking model.

I'll have to side with Dense on this one. Out of the two my Cygor has outperformed my Ghorgon every time. Don't get me wrong, I like both of them and they are both solidly in my 'Fun' slot (first units to get dropped if points are tight), but my Ghorgon should just paint a big bulls-eye on himself and call it a day. Cannons, magic missiles, and even bow/rifle fire drop him usually in the first turn or two. Whereas the Cygor, albeit still VERY expensive for what he does, is slightly more versatile. He's 'magic blocked' plenty of casters who are too fearful to cast anything in his presence and I remember one game where we had to deploy along the short table edge and he was the only model in my army who could actually do any damage till turn 3 while the rest foot-slogged up the field (Huzzah for big rocks!). Yeah, if I have the points to spare or just looking to have some fun, Cygor goes in the list every time.

Although... my Ghorgon DID eat a DE Assassin once. Happy times

I have never once had the Ghorgon's swallow hole ability work. The math on it is dreadful. 66-50% change to hit typically with a 50% KB and your opponent can still ward it off. Its 33% chance at best, an average of 25% and if against an incredible weapon skill 16.5%. I really wish it was more reliable or didn't have such an incredible penalty of losing all your attacks. I may try the cygor again, he just always seems to drop rocks on his head or miss completely then die super easy to any CC unit.

The nice part of swallow whole is how it limits your damage.
If your opponent blocks you with a throw away unit (~5 fast cav), when you charge in swallow whole.
You'll get the +1 for charging, so you should be winning combat by ~1.
Then beat them on their turn, so you're free to charge again on your own.

-Matt

you still get thunderstomp when using swallow hole.

tgf wrote:
you still get thunderstomp when using swallow hole.

You can't thunder stomp on cav.

-Matt

I guess the cygor/ghorgon theme also comes down to your local meta. Locally there are a lot of VC and TK players so having him sit behind a big unit of gors throwing rocks, messing up magicians and counter charging works. But would i take him to a tournament....no. This in itself doesn't mean he's bad it just means for 275 points other army books get a lot more monster.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

tgf wrote:
you still get thunderstomp when using swallow hole.

You can't thunder stomp on cav.

-Matt

correct only infantry, warbeast and swarm only.

tgf wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:

tgf wrote:
you still get thunderstomp when using swallow hole.

You can't thunder stomp on cav.

-Matt

correct only infantry, warbeast and swarm only.

And that's the best use of swallow whole. To stick in combat for 1 turn, break out on your opponents, and be free and safe of shooting.