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Opening this thread to avoid going off-topic in the Tau News & Rumors thread. This threads purpouse will be to discuss the impact of the rumoured Tau stuff on MEQ assault armies. Feel free to lock this thread if it's too silly of a subject.

Starting where I left off:

 Tuagh wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


The point is, it creates an incredibly boring game. Either I don't move up to engage the Tau, in which case I get shot to Kingdom Come, or I move up and try to get into CC, at which point I get shot to Kingdom Come and have my surviving few models eat Overwatch from multiple Firewarrior squads. It only gets worse if Markerlights turn out to work with Overwatch.

Maybe I'm just biased, but playing for almost an entire edition with the weakest MEQ Codex only to be further nerfed by 6th and having people post vengeful bull gak like "MEQs deserve to know what everyone else has to go through!" is kinda annoying; I know just how annoying it feels, which is why I don't want Tau to be completely stacking the odds against MEQ assault units. Assault got worse in 6th already; between cheaper units, better shooting and improved Overwatch, do Tau really need a unit that can simply hang around out of line of sight, jump out to vaporise any MEQ that gets too close and then hide again, giving the MEQ player no way to counter the threat other than staying as far away as possible?

On a side note, what AP does Tau plasma have anyway? If it's 4 like my mate claims my complaints and my math is obviously completely looney anyway.

1- If you don't know the AP of plasma, I'm inclined to believe that the issues you are facing may be, in large part, due to a lack of rules knowledge or tactical experience. If you are merely unaware of the AP of Tau plasma, that would indicate that you have very little experience against them, and thus haven't had the opportunity to learn exactly how easy it is to slaughter crisis suits. (For clarification, Tau plasma is str 6, AP 2. Tau missiles are str 7, AP 4, and may be what your mate was referring to.)

2- Despite your "weak codex" complaints, you have access to every tool necessary to eradicate the unit you seem to fear so much. Typhoons are fast enough to guarantee LOS in most situations and can shoot Krak, the scissors to Crisis-paper, accurately and in high volume for a low points cost. Don't like speeders? LRC. Take two. Tau, despite access to railguns, have difficulty cracking open more than one Land Raider before it has dumped its cargo right in their face. Those plasma suits can't even touch a Raider. Lose a few initiates to overwatch, then gobble up those "broken" suits en masse. Don't like the LRC? Take a couple of vindicators. Either they will hit the suits with their splat cannon, in which case they have served their purpose, or they will occupy enough attention that your MEQ can get close and play.

3- Don't like any of these options? Then you are just shooting yourself in the foot while yelling "Wah! Broken!". If you won't use a wrench, it isn't the bolt's fault that your hammer is useless.

Starting off, trying to snipe at me for lacking experience when my question clearly concerned Tau plasma is rather low. Starting off with a personal attack isn't, in my opinion, a very good way to base an argument.

So what happens when that double LRC list runs into anyone else with a modicum of anti-tank (or, for that matter, eat Railguns to the face)?

What happens to those Speeders if the Tau player gets first turn? Or if he's clever enough to actually hide behind a wall, where I'm not getting any LOS to him unless being well within Pulse Rifle Range?

Again, losing the front 9 models is losing a great deal of distance to the Crisis suits (not to mention half a blob) that will jump away after shooting them. Sure, there's Righteous Zeal. There's a 27% chance of me running away and even if I do succeed I'd probably need at least a 4 to even get up to the point I was at before the shooting. Add a Chaplain and things start looking better, but he's a 150 point investment in a 285 point shad that is now quite a bit more expensive than the Crisis Suit with Markerlight support, and much less agile.

What anti-MEQ weapon are you shooting at the Vindicators and thus not at the MEQ? Erroneous target priority on your opponent's part is not something to be relied upon.

Again, I'd really encourage you to stop with the personal attacks and actually read what I wrote. Crisis Suits in the iteration we're discussing wouldn't be OP (and I've never claimed they would be, in fact I said the complete opposite), they'd be a complete middle finger to any MEQ assault army that will already be hard-pressed to get into CC.

In fact, let's forget that I'm discussing this from a BT POV. What would Blood Angels do? Devestators are going to get Markerlighted and Riptide'd off the table. Any army that relies on 3+ saves to get into CC will beat a severe disadvantage from the get-go, whereas it'd matter a lot less against the fast CC foes Tau seemingly don't have nearly as good an answer to.

 juraigamer wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


Maybe I'm just biased, but playing for almost an entire edition with the weakest MEQ Codex

Black templars can do the foot horde thing very well, and tau wasting plasma on 4+ save guys is bad for the tau. With righteous zeal you cover the field faster than any other force barring blood angel jump troops.

Aside from that, the ability to have tank hunters on dreads and termies, cheap landspeeders, POTMS vindicators and excellent assault marines, as well as other bells and wistles, BT still is quite strong, but they aren't easy mode. If you want easy mode, go grab an IG, nercon or GK codex. If you want to play the army you like, you must adapt to the edition. You cannot run rhino spam anymore for any melee army, but beyond that BT are still going strong.

Adapt or be left behind.

Regardless of whether the plasma is a "waste" or not, I'm still probably not going to be able to assault him. If I'm at 2" Coherency to avoid getting Ion'd by Riptides, losing the front 9 models is going to see me need at least a 4 to just get back to where I just was a moment ago. After JSJ I'd then be 17.999..." away from the Crisis Suits, needing a 12 on my charge distance, assuming I don't lose anyone to Overwatch.

What's so excellent about 22-point Assault Marines?

And, finally, how does two good-ish shooty units (Typhoons and Terminators) make the entire Codex "strong"? Again with the implications that I don't know how to play.

Again, even if not coming at this from a BT angle, how are BA supposed to deal with cover-ignoring long-range AP3 or better shooting that gets deadlier if you're close? With World Eaters being pretty much dead already apart from Juggerlords and bikes, I don't see them being able to do feth-all either.

Meanwhile, Nids, Orks and Daemons won't care if they lose 9 models, because they'll have plenty more, and stuff that's fast like Wraiths, Seekers, T-wolf Cavalry and said Juggerlord seem poised to just steamroll through the Tau Codex anyway.

On a closing note, I guess the issue is that the Tau update seems poised to punish ailing assault Codices without preparing the Tau for meeting the new edition of fast, tough melee units. Once the remaining CC MEQ Codices get updated, there's a fair chance they'll end up with some really fast, hard-hitting CC threats to tie up dangerous shooty unit, something I feel the new Tau Codex, from what we've seen, seems fairly weak to. If this proves to be the case, it'd mean another edition of Tau being melee'd to death while doing nothing.

TL;DR: Less anti-foot-MEQ weapons for Tau, more anti-assault in general. Something similar to the Nightspinner or the TFC Subterranean rounds should be an almost obvious addition. Cover-ignoring S8 AP2 Large Blasts seem a bit OTT.

/endrant

I wouldn't go so far as to say that Tau shouldn't get less anti-MEQ firepower since they actually have very little of it now. But a bigger question is why shouldn't they? Marine players seem to feel entitled to having a troop that requires dedicated heavy and special weapon fire to bring them down. Again, it's your basic troop. Meanwhile Xenos armies have always had troop choices that are able to be brought down by weapons that most MEQ players overlook because they're so weak. Heavy bolters for example, are cheap and excellent at removing Firewarriors and come from a variety of choices in just about every FOC slot. Meanwhile Tau only have the Elite and HQ slots to deal with standard troop units reliably.

Tl;dr Marines aren't invincible and I cried tears of joy when the Heldrake treated marines just like my Firewarriors and Kroot have been treated by Heavy flamers and flamers.

So..I guess Marines just shelve their drop pods, and teleport deepstrikes, and run across the table at gun lines.

Being a player from both sides of the matter, with marines and Tau armies..(for many years), I find the thing that works best , and I dread most is deepstrikers.

A well placed tac squad, assault squad, terminator squad, will not only disrupt and force the relocation of elements of a static line, but also act as distraction for any other units moving across the table.

Shrewd placement of the DS behind cover or LOS of the bulk of things that can cause them harm is also part of this plan.

vertical insertions against longrange enemies works wonders, never play to the strength of your foes.

As far as I am concerned when I make a army from the SM codex I feel spoiled for options..so many good units and so many possibilites.

The Heldrake makes me uncomfortable in so many ways because it significantly offsets the cost-performance scale on not only itself but also on it's victims.

A 15 point model is entitled to an arbitrary 50% better performance over a 10 point model and when a flying 200 point model starts treating everything with two legs as if they were 5-point models, something's wrong.

The big questions is, at what point does AP2-3 become so common that the value of armour has been so devalued that models with heavy armour need lowered price (or conversely, models with lower armour getting an increase)?

We already see this with Sv5, Sv6 and Sv- being more or less the same because there's simply too many weapons with an AP value in the game.

I just don't see how Deep Strikers would be that beneficial TBH. Deep Striking Assault Marines is a bad idea, Deep Striking Terminators is risky and putting MEQ in Rapid Fire Plasma range is a recipe for disaster. I suppose Sternguard could work pretty well in a Drop Pod, though they'd damn well better do some damage, because they're dead after their moment of glory.

As for MEQ players complaining about models dying; we pay for the statline, every dead Marine for me is 160% (more if it's any kind of elite) of a Fire Warrior (who are probably slightly overcosted anyway). It's the exact kind of bitterness that Tau players (and everyone else, for that matter) has had with being outshot by Space Wolves: it's counter-intuitive. The solution to Tau dying too easily isn't to nerf others out of spite, it's to rework the Tau to not die as easily and/or cost less, making each death sting less. Let's take Grey Knights for example: you don't get why people are upset that their 26-point Purifiers die in droves without getting to save? It's for the same reason Tau players are upset that Crisis and Broadside Suits are T4 (T5 really would be more appropriate). Paying a premium for a model only to see it die instantly is discouraging.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


Starting off, trying to snipe at me for lacking experience when my question clearly concerned Tau plasma is rather low. Starting off with a personal attack isn't, in my opinion, a very good way to base an argument.

No insult is intended, I just tend to come off as somewhat abrasive. I merely listed off the possibilities as I saw them: You either know about AP or you don't; you either have experience against Tau or you don't; you either cannot, have not, or will not adapt your list. None of these is a personal attack, just a stated possibility.

So what happens when that double LRC list runs into anyone else with a modicum of anti-tank (or, for that matter, eat Railguns to the face)?

You roll the dice and see what happens. Some games, both raiders will drop turn one and you'll get tabled. Other games will have far more favorable results. Dual LR lists work well against some lists, not so well against others. Such is the game.

What happens to those Speeders if the Tau player gets first turn? Or if he's clever enough to actually hide behind a wall, where I'm not getting any LOS to him unless being well within Pulse Rifle Range?

See above if your opponent seizes? Hide the tiny speeders out of LOS on turn one? DS them? Enjoy the fact that, by playing hop-n-hide, your opponent has locked himself into a well defined threat zone that can be controlled? In other words, give yourself the same tactical credit you are giving your opponent.

Again, losing the front 9 models is losing a great deal of distance to the Crisis suits (not to mention half a blob) that will jump away after shooting them. Sure, there's Righteous Zeal. There's a 27% chance of me running away and even if I do succeed I'd probably need at least a 4 to even get up to the point I was at before the shooting. Add a Chaplain and things start looking better, but he's a 150 point investment in a 285 point shad that is now quite a bit more expensive than the Crisis Suit with Markerlight support, and much less agile.

You mean there is a hard counter to your favorite unit? How sad. Hard counters exist for most units- either build varied TAC lists, build very redundant lists, or accept that paper beats rock.

What anti-MEQ weapon are you shooting at the Vindicators and thus not at the MEQ? Erroneous target priority on your opponent's part is not something to be relied upon.

Maneuvering those incredibly intimidating suits for side shots perhaps? Or reference the LRC section again. Sometimes AV 13 and a little smoke will get you into range. Others it won't. You can't win them all.

Again, I'd really encourage you to stop with the personal attacks and actually read what I wrote. Crisis Suits in the iteration we're discussing wouldn't be OP (and I've never claimed they would be, in fact I said the complete opposite), they'd be a complete middle finger to any MEQ assault army that will already be hard-pressed to get into CC.

Middle finger to foot-only assault-only MEQ, maybe. Then again, so is the Heldrake. Adapt.

In fact, let's forget that I'm discussing this from a BT POV. What would Blood Angels do? Devestators are going to get Markerlighted and Riptide'd off the table. Any army that relies on 3+ saves to get into CC will beat a severe disadvantage from the get-go, whereas it'd matter a lot less against the fast CC foes Tau seemingly don't have nearly as good an answer to.

Assuming that the whole Tau wishlist comes true it'll be rough. It won't. Will they get dual weapon crisis suits? Maybe. Will they get cover denial Markerlights? Quite possible. Will Riptides get AP 3 or better large blasts? I hope not, but again- maybe. Will they get all of these things at a points cost that allows sufficient numbers to be fielded to completely negate your hypothetical lists? I highly doubt it. In addition, a 3+ save has never been a reliable way to get into CC, merely an aid to that effort. Good save/numbers/mobility/high T/good transports/portable cover all help, but no single one is enough to rely on.

Regardless of whether the plasma is a "waste" or not, I'm still probably not going to be able to assault him. If I'm at 2" Coherency to avoid getting Ion'd by Riptides, losing the front 9 models is going to see me need at least a 4 to just get back to where I just was a moment ago. After JSJ I'd then be 17.999..." away from the Crisis Suits, needing a 12 on my charge distance, assuming I don't lose anyone to Overwatch.

Again, assuming that the wishlist comes true.

What's so excellent about 22-point Assault Marines?

They move fast and tie up suits for a turn or so, or DS and distract for a turn or so. Either way, they alter your threat profile.

And, finally, how does two good-ish shooty units (Typhoons and Terminators) make the entire Codex "strong"? Again with the implications that I don't know how to play.

Again, even if not coming at this from a BT angle, how are BA supposed to deal with cover-ignoring long-range AP3 or better shooting that gets deadlier if you're close? With World Eaters being pretty much dead already apart from Juggerlords and bikes, I don't see them being able to do feth-all either.

Meanwhile, Nids, Orks and Daemons won't care if they lose 9 models, because they'll have plenty more, and stuff that's fast like Wraiths, Seekers, T-wolf Cavalry and said Juggerlord seem poised to just steamroll through the Tau Codex anyway.

On a closing note, I guess the issue is that the Tau update seems poised to punish ailing assault Codices without preparing the Tau for meeting the new edition of fast, tough melee units. Once the remaining CC MEQ Codices get updated, there's a fair chance they'll end up with some really fast, hard-hitting CC threats to tie up dangerous shooty unit, something I feel the new Tau Codex, from what we've seen, seems fairly weak to. If this proves to be the case, it'd mean another edition of Tau being melee'd to death while doing nothing.

TL;DR: Less anti-foot-MEQ weapons for Tau, more anti-assault in general. Something similar to the Nightspinner or the TFC Subterranean rounds should be an almost obvious addition. Cover-ignoring S8 AP2 Large Blasts seem a bit OTT.

/endrant

This all seems to amount to two things: Slow unsupported CC is pathetic. Yes. You are right. Fast, well supported CC, on the other hand, does quite well. Again, you are right.

I see no problem with this. Adapt.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I just don't see how Deep Strikers would be that beneficial TBH. Deep Striking Assault Marines is a bad idea, Deep Striking Terminators is risky and putting MEQ in Rapid Fire Plasma range is a recipe for disaster. I suppose Sternguard could work pretty well in a Drop Pod, though they'd damn well better do some damage, because they're dead after their moment of glory.

As for MEQ players complaining about models dying; we pay for the statline, every dead Marine for me is 160% (more if it's any kind of elite) of a Fire Warrior (who are probably slightly overcosted anyway). It's the exact kind of bitterness that Tau players (and everyone else, for that matter) has had with being outshot by Space Wolves: it's counter-intuitive. The solution to Tau dying too easily isn't to nerf others out of spite, it's to rework the Tau to not die as easily and/or cost less, making each death sting less. Let's take Grey Knights for example: you don't get why people are upset that their 26-point Purifiers die in droves without getting to save? It's for the same reason Tau players are upset that Crisis and Broadside Suits are T4 (T5 really would be more appropriate). Paying a premium for a model only to see it die instantly is discouraging.

DS in and kill the scary suits, then use your vaunted 3+ to weather the incoming fire warrior fusillade, then crush them like grapes.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

As for MEQ players complaining about models dying; we pay for the statline, every dead Marine for me is 160% (more if it's any kind of elite) of a Fire Warrior (who are probably slightly overcosted anyway). It's the exact kind of bitterness that Tau players (and everyone else, for that matter) has had with being outshot by Space Wolves: it's counter-intuitive. The solution to Tau dying too easily isn't to nerf others out of spite, it's to rework the Tau to not die as easily and/or cost less, making each death sting less. Let's take Grey Knights for example: you don't get why people are upset that their 26-point Purifiers die in droves without getting to save? It's for the same reason Tau players are upset that Crisis and Broadside Suits are T4 (T5 really would be more appropriate). Paying a premium for a model only to see it die instantly is discouraging.

I don't see the issue with expensive suits, with expensive weapons, that are very limited in number, and no more durable than marines being able to kill the marines which come in droves, in just about every FOC slot, and with more weapons and options.

You point out that Tau are inheirantly weak and need fixing in several places, but why are you against anti-MEQ firepower? You can argue that you pay a premium price, but that just kind of dismisses that every other model has a price as well and non-MEQ are more susceptible to the plentiful amount of cover save denying weapons out there.

I agree, if I lose a tac squad to your suits.. So what, I should have enough firepower in the rest of my army to kill you massively expensive suits, thats a win in my book, 3 t4 suits die easily

If the solution to CC armies being weak is "take more ranged units lol" I don't even have to try to make a point...

 Tuagh wrote:

See above if your opponent seizes? Hide the tiny speeders out of LOS on turn one? DS them? Enjoy the fact that, by playing hop-n-hide, your opponent has locked himself into a well defined threat zone that can be controlled? In other words, give yourself the same tactical credit you are giving your opponent.

Speeders don't have JSJ though, which means they leave themselves vulnerable once they've fired. Sure, Typhoons probably work well against Crisis Suits, provided they even get to fire in the first place. "Locking" Tau into a well-defined threat zone in this case simply means the Tau player getting to use his longer range to his advantage.

 Tuagh wrote:

Again, losing the front 9 models is losing a great deal of distance to the Crisis suits (not to mention half a blob) that will jump away after shooting them. Sure, there's Righteous Zeal. There's a 27% chance of me running away and even if I do succeed I'd probably need at least a 4 to even get up to the point I was at before the shooting. Add a Chaplain and things start looking better, but he's a 150 point investment in a 285 point shad that is now quite a bit more expensive than the Crisis Suit with Markerlight support, and much less agile.

You mean there is a hard counter to your favorite unit? How sad. Hard counters exist for most units- either build varied TAC lists, build very redundant lists, or accept that paper beats rock.

It's not just a counter to Templar blobs, it's a counter to BA Assault Marines, Berzerkers and pretty much any melee unit with a 3+ save that isn't Thunderwolf Cavalry or Nurgle Bikers. I suppose part of the issue is that there's simply no building varied TAC lists with Templars; there's one troops choice and that's it. It's not a bad troops choice, but it's not exactly stellar either. When DE was released there was (rightfully) a lot of gripe about Tyranids being completely shafter against them. There's hardly ever any outrage when it's a MEQ Codex (or multiple) getting the shaft.

 Tuagh wrote:
[

What anti-MEQ weapon are you shooting at the Vindicators and thus not at the MEQ? Erroneous target priority on your opponent's part is not something to be relied upon.

Maneuvering those incredibly intimidating suits for side shots perhaps? Or reference the LRC section again. Sometimes AV 13 and a little smoke will get you into range. Others it won't. You can't win them all.

So more or less "hope that Railguns and Railcannons won't stop you before you get to shoot the Suits"? It could probably work, but it's just not very reliable against an army that's jokingly been referred to as "Codex: Broadsides", even with the incoming anti-tank nerf to Railguns.

 Tuagh wrote:

Middle finger to foot-only assault-only MEQ, maybe. Then again, so is the Heldrake. Adapt.

There's nothing to adapt with. Heldreakes are hard counters to foot MEQ units. So are Daemons. And, seemingly, Tau. That's the issue: when 3 out of 4 books (assuming I'm right in my gloom and doom about Tau) made for 6th completely and utterly blast assaulty MEQ off the table unless said MEQ army is running "shooty, with some token countercharge" (which really isn't assaulty at all). Again, between more Ion weapons (the WD images confirm that both the Riptide and Pathfinders have some sort of Ion weapons) and an improved shooting phase, it's going to be an uphill battle to get into CC at all, unless you have good bikes, beasts or cavalry. Against bikes, beasts or cavalry, the Tau durability seems woefully low compared to their absolutely gobsmacking ability to blast foot infantry units off the table.

 Tuagh wrote:

They move fast and tie up suits for a turn or so, or DS and distract for a turn or so. Either way, they alter your threat profile.

There's a reason no one ever takes Assault Marines unless they're Blood Angels: they're bad. Having the most expensive of these bad units in the game is hardly a boon. It doesn't matter that they get another 6" movement every turn; they'll never reach the Suits anyway, unless you're completely overloading on Assault marines and going with something like 25 or 30, at which point you really stop having a TAC list. Deep Striking assault units (let's ignore the part where there's no scatter reduction or mishap protection whatsoever and that the unit isn't going to be very cheap) means they're stuck doing nothing until at earliest turn 3 and the enemy gets to blast them with every gun in the army the turn they come in.

 Tuagh wrote:

This all seems to amount to two things: Slow unsupported CC is pathetic. Yes. You are right. Fast, well supported CC, on the other hand, does quite well. Again, you are right.
I see no problem with this. Adapt.

There's no adapting to be done without dropping the assault part, which is the problem. If the only viable melee units are fast, both Black Templars and Blood Angels stop being viable assaulty armies, and World Eaters barely get out of the scrape due to the Juggerlord. Melee units already can't deal with fliers, adding more units that are, for all intents and purpouses, immune to CC unless you surround them only serves to slant the game even more in favour of shooting. You can deal with everything in the game by shooting it. You can't feasibly deal with everything in the game with assaults. "Adapt" isn't helping at all, there's no amount of adapting that will change this fact.

 Tuagh wrote:

DS in and kill the scary suits, then use your vaunted 3+ to weather the incoming fire warrior fusillade, then crush them like grapes.

What, in Codex: Blood Angels, Codex: Black Templars or Codex: Chaos Space Marines, is there that can deep-strike and blow away a unit of Crisis Suits with any reliability? The only thing that doesn't cost 2751052401^25 points that I can think of is combi-melta Sternguard.They're a good unit, and it probably works, but there's ways to mitigate Deep Strike vulnerability a lot. It's not as though the Tau player can't see that one coming from a mile away.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

I don't see the issue with expensive suits, with expensive weapons, that are very limited in number, and no more durable than marines being able to kill the marines which come in droves, in just about every FOC slot, and with more weapons and options.

You point out that Tau are inheirantly weak and need fixing in several places, but why are you against anti-MEQ firepower? You can argue that you pay a premium price, but that just kind of dismisses that every other model has a price as well and non-MEQ are more susceptible to the plentiful amount of cover save denying weapons out there.

I'm fine with Tau having anti-MEQ firepower, I'm just not very thrilled at the prospect of JSJ suits being de facto unkillable with close combat. That added mobility alone make them more durable than marines, although they're weak against krak and lascannons. Pushing the game even more in favour of the shooting phase doesn't sit very well with those of us who like playing assault armies.

Lower points costs means you can take more, redundant units. Losing a unit of Marines to a Baleflamer is going to sting more than losing a unit of Fire Warriors to a Baleflamer. The higher vulnerability of cheaper models to cover-ignoring weapons is offset by the fact that they're more numerous. A weapon like the Baleflamer that has incredible mobility, ignores cover and kills a 26-point Purifier as though he were a 3 point Grot is going to make people upset. Getting 6 Ork Boyz under a Baleflamer template, for example, results in an average of 5 dead Orks, or 30 points. Getting 6 Grey Hunters under the template results in 5 dead Grey Hunters, or 75 points.When similar weapons (they don't have to be as strong as the Baleflamer Heldrake) start appearing in more and more places, it starts to really devalue the 3+ save of Marines, leading GW to lower the points cost for Marines, which makes them unbalanced in relation to other, non-MEQ choices, which leads to a reduction in price of those, which leads to an increase in survivability of the non-MEQ choices in comparison to MEQ and so on.



It probably isn't going to be as bad as I fear it might be, and I'm probably overreacting, but I'm getting pretty tired of having to take more and more shooting at the expense of CC because 6th hates my army's type of CC.

I'm really not seeing the problem here. You have assault guys with 3+ saves. You must have a fair amount right? Otherwise the list would be shooty, which is not how you describe it.

- If he is taking this rumoured crazy plasma spam unit, hes going to take out a fair few guys from one squad (if the dice gods permit it). You have more than one squad im sure.
- Your also worried about riptides + hammerheads + broadsides taking out tanks and stuff. So thats at least 1/2 if not 2/3 of the army your facing. After that point he probably doesnt have alot of room for Markerlights or Firewarriors (at least in the numbers that would make them devastating)

Yes hes plasma spam will take out 1 unit, maybe the riptide will aswell, hell MAYBE everything in his army will crush you turn one, there is no way to know. Run your guys through cover get some saves and stop worrying about massive damage units. Tie the suits up with fast moving assault, blast them with str 8+ weapons. Melta or lascannon tanks, or failing everything just charge. Maybe take Land raiders to protect your guys, take rhinos to give your guys cover/block LoS. Drop pod guys in his face.

At the end of the day if we have insane amounts of anti-MEQ I can tell you right now we are going to pay through the nose to get it. That means less guys on the board, which can easily be overcome. And if theres one thing I hate as a tau player, its large numbers of guys. Sure small elite armies are a joke to play against, but when you start having huge amounts of guys on the board I just dont have enough shots some times. Especially if its MEQ. Firewarriors will dish out wounds but you will save the majority (most of the time). Plasma costs a metric tonne to buy already, imagine if I had to buy it twice for each guy. Those suits would be crazy expensive and therefore a massive loss if say 3 cracks landed on them (which is not a hard thing to do).


Anyway my point is there is alot you can do. This hypothetical tau list has alot of flaws and I for one would not take Dual TL plasma on suits, unless that unit had the 4+ invulns and FNP and 2+ saves. But they wont because thats insane. The codex isn't even out yet, I bet you this doesnt happen, but if it does and you see someone taking dual TL plasma suits, I would laugh in their face.

Some armies are shooty, some assaulty. Tau seem to be becoming an anti-assaulty, shooty army. Which is a good thing, every shooty army needs something to deal with assault armies. Guard have overwhelming numbers of shots, tau have less shot's, but each is worth more, and giving them help with overwatch is a good addition for them, but not at all overpowered. IF your entire assault squad dies to one moderately boosted overwatch phase, then it's not all that good an assault unit. Either way, if you can get just 2 or 3 assault orientated models into fire warriors, they will win, no contest.