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I've was told recently that to ensure a flyer has legally been placed on a table, say, the minimum 18 inches, you trace a line from the wings of the model. If either touches the short table edge, the flyer is illegally placed. Is this correct? Then most of the weapons arch 45 degrees?

I really don't understand what you're saying. Trace a line to where?
The model must be completely on the board, with no part overhanging the table edge.

Um, no.

You don't have to have the flyer come on at a right angle to the board edge. You can have it fly in at a very shallow angle. The only thing that matters is that it goes 18" minimum from start to finish. You measure from the front of the base to the point on the board edge that it entered from, and it has to be a straight line.

I've done this a lot where my flyer ends it's first movement only 2 or 3 inches from my board edge. Of course, it's nose is pointed far to the left or right (almost perpendicular, just not quite), but it's perfectly legal.

Ask your opponent to show you that rule.

I think he's trying to get at the following:

After you've moved your flyer on to the table, trace a line from the wingtips back parallel to the flight path. If either of those lines intersect the short table edge, then at least the appropriate wingtip must have moved on from the short table edge. Which wouldn't be a legal entry point for the model. So either your angle of entry was too shallow, or your original position too close to the end of the table to allow the model to legally "fit."

I don't think that's true however - the model is still entering on the long edge.

It ultimately depends on the shape of the flyer in question. If the wings are far enough back you certainly could start from a legal off board position but still have the line intersect a short board edge. But if the wings are towards the front, like the new Tau flyer appears to be, then the number of off board positions that don't result in wings hanging onto the board (which would not be a legal start point) before the move narrow down considerably.

It's certainly not a hard and fast rule, but it works as a guideline for when to give it a more thorough examination.

Why would it be an illegal move?
What rule am I missing?

When moving on to the board, you move on from a point "as if it had been positioned just off board and moved as normal." The rules then continue to say it is incorrect to place the model on the board and move from there.

So if your wings are long and placed towards the front you couldn't realistically end up nigh parallel to your long table edge without also starting right in the corner, because otherwise your pre-move assumed position would have actually been partially on the table. However a Storm Talon, which has stubby mid point wings, can have a parallel end point from almost anywhere.

Or at least, that was my thinking originally. What I hadn't considered was the pre move pivot, which could easily bring wings on to the table before the movement. Which would also easily allow lines traced back from the wing tip to intersect the short table edge.

So in actuality, a line from the wingtip intersecting the short table edge isn't a problem. What would be a problem is if neither wing-tip line intersects the long table edge, as that would mean that the flyer moved on from the short edge instead.

p125 just says that the model must move fully onto the table from the controlling player's end. I can't find anthing that says it has to be fully on the table prior to the end of the move.

It doesn't have to be fully on to the table prior to the end of the move. But it does have to be fully off the table before the start of the move. I was getting hung up on when you determined the entry angle, specifically I was thinking it was determined before you "placed" the model off table for its move. But it isn't, the angle is determined as you start moving, so you can place the model fully off table, pivot and bring parts of the model on table and then move.

Chrysis wrote:
]So in actuality, a line from the wingtip intersecting the short table edge isn't a problem. What would be a problem is if neither wing-tip line intersects the long table edge, as that would mean that the flyer moved on from the short edge instead.

Exactly my point.

For all vehicles you always measure distances from the hull. While the wings are part of the hull, unless they are the MOST forward part of the flyer, then you should be measuring from the nose-tip (or equivalent). Your given permission to come on from reserves at any angle you wish. You must move your minimum, measuring from the front of the vehicle, and you must end your movement completely on the table.

As for the short edge, If the front of your flyer is less than 18" away from in in a straight line along your movement, than no, that would not have been legal. Still though, you measure from the front, not the wings. If we did measure by the wings, a stormraven going the minimum from the corner in a legal move would still only be some 13.5" from the shorter table edge from the back of it's wings.

pg 80: right side, 2nd paragraph, 3rd sentence. "In a turn in which a Flyer enters the board from reserve .... providing that the resulting move will not carry it off the board again."

In short, once it starts to come on, you can start from any position on your board edge (as long as it's not physically on the board), facing any direction, and move a minimum 18" but you have to stay on the board. Because it pivots at the start and moves in a straight line, you could certainly be partially off the board during part of your movement but by the end it has to be fully on the board. Technically, there is no physical way to not be partially off the board during your movement, even if you were heading at a right angle to the board edge, as you start off the board.

Also, there is no way to end your movement after having gone fully onto the board and back off without doing a flat out move across the entire table, which is prohibited.

pyre wrote:

As for the short edge, If the front of your flyer is less than 18" away from in in a straight line along your movement, than no, that would not have been legal. Still though, you measure from the front, not the wings. If we did measure by the wings, a stormraven going the minimum from the corner in a legal move would still only be some 13.5" from the shorter table edge from the back of it's wings.

Where are you getting this rule from?

The rules require you to move 18", not 18" away from the table edge. If you come on at a 45 degree angle and only move 18" you would only be 14 or 15" off the short edge. This move is completely legal.

flyers have not entered play until their entire HULL,
not base, HULL, is on the board,

if your angle is so shallow that part of your hull is off the board for those 18" you claim to travel, then you are not actually travelling 18"

distances are measured from the hull, not base, if you are moving with your hull off table, you are not moving legally

so while shallow angles are ok, to a point, at some point yes it is breaking to rules (ie when the angle is so shallow any of the 18" mandatory move has any part of the flyers hull off the board)

if you come in at an angle so shallow that your wing is off the board for 14" of the 18" you claim to travel, that breaks normal movement rules, since you cannot put part of the model off table for part of your movement,

so while there is no rule against the shallow angle,

there is a rule against moving with part of your hull off the board

easysauce wrote:
since you cannot put part of the model off table for part of your movement,

In fact you must have part of your model off the table for part of your movement. Since you start moving while off the table and all.

there is a rule against moving with part of your hull off the board

That's untrue. You can't enter the board and then leave it, and you can't end with part of your hull off the board, but there's no rule that says what you're saying.
Anywhere.
Cite it if you disagree.

so rigel,
you assert that you can leave the table with vehicles/models as you wish,
I can now move any model I want off the board, as long as I bring it back on at the end of its movement?

cite the rule permitting you to move a model off the board without it then entering ongoing reserves, because that is the only time you are permitted to intentionally leave the board

there is only permission for leaving the board as well, none is given to have half the model off the board for any purpose, its either on the board, or off since those conditions have rules for them,

half on the board with some hull off the board is not a state supported by rules

cite the rule allowing you to move along the board with the some hull off the board.


I dont have BRB infront of me, for the page # but yes there are rules about moving off the board,

only flyers can move off the board, and they then enter ongoing reserves,

if you come on from reserves,

then have your initial movement take you off the board,

easysauce wrote:
so rigel,
you assert that you can leave the table with vehicles/models as you wish,
I can now move any model I want off the board, as long as I bring it back on at the end of its movement?

No, that's not what I said at all. Like, ever.

half on the board with some hull off the board is not a state supported by rules

It must be, it's literally impossible to move onto the board from off the board without having some of your model on and some off.

I dont have BRB infront of me, for the page # but yes there are rules about moving off the board,

only flyers can move off the board, and they then enter ongoing reserves,

Which isn't what I asked for a citation for...

if you come on from reserves,

then have your initial movement take you off the board,

... unfinished sentence?

I don't know where easysauce is going, but I think this quote deserves some more attention:

Chrysis wrote:
But the Flyer does have to be fully off the table before the start of the move.

I have made a crude diagram, showing two Stormravens at the same angle, one partially on the table while in Reserve, one completely off.


As you see in the picture, if the Stormraven is angled sharply with the nose just off the table, then a wing hangs over the table. p124 says models moving in from Reserve should be moved "as if they had been positioned just off the board in the previous turn." Since the wing is part of the model, the wing could not be hanging over the board in any way. The wing would have to be hanging just off the board, which, at a sharp angle, would push the nose away from the board edge, thus resulting in a significantly different position for the nose.

What do people think? This results in perhaps more maneuverability for Flyers, rather than less.

Nothing can ever be partially off the table? How would the first stormraven ever get in that position?

Put the nose at the edge of the table. Pivot on the centerpoint. Oh look, the wing can be over the table before the model moves an inch.

ok, maybe this makes more sense with a picture, but i cant upload pict atm

just as when we move a tank in from reserves,

we treat the whole tank as being off the table

we must do the same thing with flyers,

they must start totally off the board, which will affect the angle they approach from, no wings on the board at all are permitted,

they must also must end totally on the board,

there fore because flyers have a width,
they therfore have a minimum angle of entry allowed


then people place the base on the board, but still have the model hangin off,

or they place the whole model on the board, but in a position that can only be acheived by (illegally) placing part of the model on the board before it has arrived at an angle that cannot be acheive legally


take for example:
a flyer model has a 5" radius from its center, (ie 10" diameter, pretend its a perfect circle)
a flyer must move 18" onto the board, with none of the hull on the table before the 18", and all of it on the table after 18",

we must therefor have the flyer at least 5" from the board edge, with a 18" line pointing to the point where it entered (the hypotinuse of a triangle)

the minimum angle of ingress is therefor =sin^-1(5/18)

so about 16 degrees

any angle less then 16 degrees will be illegal with a model that is 5" wide, with the minimum angle increasing as the width of the flyer increases


yet consistanly, people with flyers that have 5-8" radius will enter in at an angle well below 15, in a manuvere that is illegal by the actual rules, but doesnt get called out due to people not realizing how geometry works

people also measure from the front of the flyers base, putting some of the hull on the board before it has entered, further illegally makeing the angle shallower.

easysauce wrote:
ok, maybe this makes more sense with a picture,

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=507797609280398&set=a.507797599280399.1073741826.100001504901221&type=1&relevant_count=1&ref=nf " target="_new" rel="nofollow"> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=507797609280398&set=a.507797599280399.1073741826.100001504901221&type=1&relevant_count=1&ref=nf

I can not see anything in that url.

It says "This content is currently unavailable"

they must start totally off the board, which will affect the angle they approach from, no wings on the board at all are permitted,

Yes. that is true.

they must also must end totally on the board,

True again.

a flyer must move 18" onto the board, with none of the hull on the table before the 18"

So close but yet so far.

The whole model must start its move as if is were positioned just off the table, then can move normally. (P. 124)

This means the vehicle can pivot and end up with its hull just barely on the table at an extreme angle.

easysauce wrote:
a flyer must move 18" onto the board, with none of the hull on the table before the 18", and all of it on the table after 18",

That's incorrect (well, technically correct for a perfect circle but that flyer doesn't exist).
Take a vendetta. Put a tall stick against it's nose. Pivot the Vendetta along it's centerpoint. Note how it's wings will contact the stick.

As long as the model doesn't turn more than 90 degrees before it moves and ends its move entirely on the table, everything is satisfied. There's no geometry required.

 DeathReaper wrote:

they must start totally off the board, which will affect the angle they approach from, no wings on the board at all are permitted,

Yes. that is true.

they must also must end totally on the board,

True again.

a flyer must move 18" onto the board, with none of the hull on the table before the 18"

So close but yet so far.

The whole model must start its move as if is were positioned just off the table, then can move normally. (P. 124)

This means the vehicle can pivot and end up with its hull just barely on the table at an extreme angle.

no it does not, you are saying the whole model must start off the table, which is correct as the rules say,

then in the next sentence you say the hull can be on the table prior to arriving,

you contradict yourself,

there is 100% a minimum angle on ingress unless you have a model with no radius

easysauce wrote:
then in the next sentence you say the hull can be on the table prior to arriving,

Can a model pivot before it enters the field as part of it's movement or must it go straight?

Of course there is a minimum angle, as the model must end its move fully on the table.

However, I did not contradict myself.

I did not say anything close to "the hull can be on the table prior to arriving"

Not sure where you are getting that from.

rigeld2 wrote:
Put the nose at the edge of the table. Pivot on the centerpoint. Oh look, the wing can be over the table before the model moves an inch.

This. The base starts at the board edge. You are then allowed a pivot of up to 90 degrees. Since 90 degrees would keep you completely off the board at this point, somewhere between 0 and a 90 degree pivot will get your entire model onto the board. Now, move your flyer 18". As long as the following are held, it is a legal movement:

a. You moved a minimum of 18" ( measure from front edge to front edge, center to center, etc)
b. Your model is completely on the board
c. Your model is more than 1" away from enemy models

Have I missed anything?

Wouldn't this simply be the inverse of the old Land Raider pivot argument?

rigeld2 wrote:

easysauce wrote:
then in the next sentence you say the hull can be on the table prior to arriving,

Can a model pivot before it enters the field as part of it's movement or must it go straight?

you get to choose initial facing of the flyer, very true,

if you pivot it so that part of the hull is already on the table prior to moving on,

then the model is not off the board because part of it is on the board,

why are you allowed to start with some of the model on the board already, in contrast to the rules saying you cannot do this? cite rules please

weather you put that part of the hull on the board due to a pivot or not,

you have still put part of the model on the board before the model has moved onto the board.

you need to pivot in such a way that the entire hull is off the board before it moves on

you guys are saying "yes a model must start entirely off the board"

then in the next breath saying "but a flyer can pivot, so it can start partially on the board"

which is in contradiction to the rules,

flyers are not perfect circles, but they all will have a wingspan, and that wingspan does affect the minimum angle of ingress as that entire wing must be on the table at the end of the move.

starting with part of the model on the board, breaks rules, regardless of method used to put part of the hull on the board (pivot, move, ect)

ending with part of the model off the board, breaks rules,


a model with a 5" wingspan will have a 16degree limit of ingress (assuming minimum 18" move), since it MUST be at least 5" away from the table edge at the end of its move so that its hull is off the board,











Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Green is Best! wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Put the nose at the edge of the table. Pivot on the centerpoint. Oh look, the wing can be over the table before the model moves an inch.

This. The base starts at the board edge. You are then allowed a pivot of up to 90 degrees. Since 90 degrees would keep you completely off the board at this point, somewhere between 0 and a 90 degree pivot will get your entire model onto the board. Now, move your flyer 18". As long as the following are held, it is a legal movement:

a. You moved a minimum of 18" ( measure from front edge to front edge, center to center, etc)
b. Your model is completely on the board
c. Your model is more than 1" away from enemy models

Have I missed anything?

Wouldn't this simply be the inverse of the old Land Raider pivot argument?

you dont measure from the base, you use the hull, this is what makes people move flyers wrong, they use the base, and forget that the hull over hangs it,

if you deploy the flyer on the board, and measure from the front of the base, when in fact the models nose/wing is farther up then that, not only do you have the distance wrong, but the rules state you do NOT measure from the flyers base.


and in addition to ending completely ON the board,

you must start completely off the board,

if your initial angle puts any part of the model on the board, you have broken a rule...

the way you are describing it, I think you think that only the models BASE has to be on the board, or off the board

easysauce wrote:
why are you allowed to start with some of the model on the board already, in contrast to the rules saying you cannot do this? cite rules please

You are not allowed to. You start with the model off the board, then, while moving, you pivot the flyer, and continue your move.

you get to choose initial facing of the flyer, very true,

if you pivot it so that part of the hull is already on the table prior to moving on,

then the model is not off the board because part of it is on the board,

And what is to stop someone from choosing to position the front of the flyer against the board and then moving it 0.000000000001 inches, pivoting the flyer about the center them moving the flyer 17.000000000001 inches so you end up fully on the board but your wing just barely on the board.

Nothing prevents this type of movement.

The model is moving when you start to pivot. This is something you are not grasping.

weather you put that part of the hull on the board due to a pivot or not,

Irrelevant, you are allowed to pivot the vehicle.

you have still put part of the model on the board before the model has moved onto the board.

You do this anyway when you are forced to stop the vehicle to perform a Difficult terrain test.

you need to pivot in such a way that the entire hull is off the board before it moves on

Citation needed, as this directly goes against the rules for pivoting vehicles.

then in the next breath saying "but a flyer can pivot, so it can start partially on the board"

Again, once you start pivoting, you are no longer starting, you are moving.

starting with part of the model on the board, breaks rules,

True.

regardless of method used to put part of the hull on the board (pivot, move, ect)

False. once you start to move the vehicle has started its movement off the board. Once you start your pivot you are moving and have started with the Hull off the board.

ending with part of the model off the board, breaks rules

True.

a model with a 5" wingspan will have a 16degree limit of ingress (assuming minimum 18" move), since it MUST be at least 5" away from the table edge at the end of its move so that its hull is off the board

The wing does not have to be 5 inches away from the edge...

It just needs to not be off the edge. As long as all of the Hull is on the table the vehicle movement is legal.