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This situation came up and I wasn't sure how to handle it.

Lets say I have 4 Mournfang cavalry lined up like this:

A B C D

Also lets say they are all Rank and File (no command).

Previously in the shooting phase my opponents hand gunners put 2 wounds into the fang unit and the wounds were applied to D (leaving 1 wound).

Next my opponent fires his cannon at B and causes 3 wounds.

My question is, "Where are the wounds applied B or D?"

Thank you.

The wounds are applied to the unit, not to a model, so one would be removed.

So you're saying the wounds would be applied towards D since its applied to the unit, and D has wounds on it already.

I know it's a big request but can you tell me where it says that in the BRB? I tried looking but, couldn't find it.

Thanks.

I'm saying that D doesn't have wounds already if he is RnF; the unit has 2 wounds. So one model (potentially D) would be removed when the unit went to 5 wounds.

Cannons and MI/MC interact a little strangely. After determining bounce, you would roll to wound the first model hit, make any ward saves available, and if failed roll to see how many wounds that model suffered. If it is enough to kill that model, you roll to wound the second model, make their ward saves and roll number of wounds if failed. Continue this until one of the following occurs:

1. The cannonball has completed its bounce.
2. A model does not die to the canon. This stops the cannonball's bounce, preventing any further models from being wounded.

As to your specific question, page 113 makes it clear that the model THAT IS HIT is where you start. So if the cannonball starts before the unit bouncing into the unit as a whole, you start with D. If the cannonball lands on model B, you start there. This is also the case if the cannonball is a dud that lands on only a single model.

Yeah, but if the unit already has 1 wound, and your cannon deals only 2 wounds, you have "dealt enough to kill it." So the interaction is only strange in that you have to make sure you kill one to go one - the wound interaction doesn't change much.

Except thats not how it works. That model that you hit didn't have any wounds on it, the unit had wounds on it. Rank and File models don't own their own wounds, so whenever a RnF model is hit it is always treated as having full wounds.

The wounds a unit of multi-wound models has taken are effectivly just floating around till they are enough to completely remove a whole model(s)

Nothing in the FAQ and 3 rules that come into play.

Page 113 says that monstrous infantry/beast/cav or monster that is it isn't slain, the ball stops.

Page 45
Models with More than One Wound.
Any Leftover wounds that were not enough to remove a model are carried over and will be added to the wounds inflicted by subsequent attacks.

Page45
Multi-wound models and Multi-wound weapons say Add up all the wounds cuased on the unit and then remove the appropriate number of models, noting any spare wounds on the unit (remembering that each model cannot suffer more wounds than it has on its profile).

Multi-wound models vs Multiwound weapon would tell us to roll all the wounds first, but that conflicts with the ball stopping.
Models with more than one wound tells us to add the previous carry over wounds to the new roll.

Against a unit of Monstrous Infantry with 3 wounds, any multiple wounds great than 3 is treated as 3. Anything less stops the ball. If the unit of Previously wounded, the previous wounds are added to the First die roll (as I see no option to save them for later).

Firing into the flank of a wounded monstrous unit (lets say they previously took 2 wounds), the first hit rolls 6 wounds, I add the 2 for a total of 8. This is then reduced to 3.
The model is killed and the ball continues.
The next model hit is wounded and takes 4 wounds, this is reduced to 3, the model is killed and the ball continues.
The next model hit is wounded, and takes 2 wounds. The unit is marked for having taking 2 wounds, and the ball stops.

It looks like to me, the first hit always uses up all the wound markers.

-Matt

Ok so I'm a little confused about this in regards to my situation.

Does this mean that the answer is not clearly defined?

mrfantastical wrote:
Ok so I'm a little confused about this in regards to my situation.

Does this mean that the answer is not clearly defined?

Your question is flawed because your premise is wrong.
Previously, the unit was wounded twice. The unit has two wounds.
The next time the unit is wounded, it will always take those previous 2 wounds into account.

Unless the model is a unit champ or character, effectively the cannon always finished off the wounded.


-Matt

I slightly disagree with your interprtation. If the cannon caused 1 or 2 wounds, it would stop the ball because a model had not been killed. The previous wounds then come in to play and a model would be removed.

Niteware wrote:
I slightly disagree with your interprtation. If the cannon caused 1 or 2 wounds, it would stop the ball because a model had not been killed. The previous wounds then come in to play and a model would be removed.

Huh? The model is killed, you just said so yourself.
The rules say to add previous wounds to current ones, and that's enough to kill the model. The model has been killed, so the ball should stop.

The rule for the cannon doesn't say that the ball stops if you don't roll equal to or over the models wound stat, it says the ball stops if the model isn't Slain.
Is the model slain?
Yes. I picked him up and put him in my dead pile.
The ball continues.

-Matt

Agreed. The rule doesn't say "only if the cannon does wounds equal to the wounds on the model's profile." It says if it kills it. If the unit has two wounds and then the unit or a model in that unit takes another wound, you've killed the model. Cannon continues.

Look at it another way. Let's say there was a character on the end who had taken two wounds already. If the cannon hit him first on the way through, and did only 1 or 2 wounds, certainly it would kill him. And the cannon would continue. It is the same with the unit's floating wounds.

What does the trick for me is the language on p. 45 that the floating wounds are "added to the next attack". This seems to me to instruct you to add them to the cannon shot too. So yeah, wherever you hit the unit, that's the wounded guy.

On the flip side, you don't have the choice to not add those attacks.
If I have 2 floating wounds and get hit by a cannon doing 5, you'd add the 2 floaters to it for 7, then remove a single model and discard the overkill. The next in line is fresh when he gets hit.

If it were a sword of D6 wounding, it would be different, as all those attacks happen at the same time. But the cannon forces each to be resolved one at a time.

-Matt

I disagree with that Matt - I think pg. 45 only limits the amount of wounds the cannon do to 3 and the rest still slide over.

Killjoy00 wrote:
I disagree with that Matt - I think pg. 45 only limits the amount of wounds the cannon do to 3 and the rest still slide over.

But the rules also tell you that you add the previous wounds to the new total.
If you roll a 6, and add 2, and are limited to 3, you do 3 wounds.
I don't see how you have the option to not add the wounds to the first roll.

-Matt

I suppose it depends at what point you add the wounds. The rule says "Add up all the wounds caused on the unit AND THEN remove the appropriate number of models".

The multi-wounds rule says that they are added, but not at what point in the process.

I would read it as cannon hits fresh model - calculate what happens - is ball stopped? - if yes, unit takes wounds (add any previous wounds to see if a model is removed).

Adding them before this would mean that a D6 wounds cannonball was capped at (Models wound value - wounds on unit) rather than (Models wound value), which might make a difference if the second target hit was a character with charmed shield (for example).

Matt - because the limitation on wounds suffered = wounds on profile only applies to the wounds caused by the cannon, not wounds existing or created from other places. Bottom right of pg. 45.

Killjoy00 wrote:
Matt - because the limitation on wounds suffered = wounds on profile only applies to the wounds caused by the cannon, not wounds existing or created from other places. Bottom right of pg. 45.

Bottom left page 45.
Any leftover wounds that where not enough to remove a model are carried over and will be added to the wounds inflicted by any subsequent attacks.

Middle of page 45:
A model cannot suffer more wounds that it has. Should the model do so, it dies instantly and any excess wounds are wasted.
Again, once wounded, you must carry over previous wounds to any subsequent attack, you're limited to 3 (on an ogre) and excess wounds above 3 (on an ogre) are wasted.

It's the cannon's sequence of forcing you to resolve the hit to see if it hits the next that causes the loss.
When you resolve the hit, you've used the carry over.

I just don't see permission to not use the carry over on the first model hit.

-Matt

When you look at multi-wound models and multi-wound weapons, you see the limitation is really applied to the weapon inflicting the hit. The extra wounds are still carried over - per "any leftover wounds that were not enough to remove a model are carried over and will be added to the wounds inflicted by" subsequent hits.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

I just don't see permission to not use the carry over on the first model hit.

-Matt

Whereas I don't see permission to arbitrarily decide that the first model hit had those wounds.

You roll to see how many wounds the cannonball does. If it kills a model outright, you go on to the next model (The unit takes 3 wounds in the ogres example, so a model would be removed either way). If it does not kill a model outright, you work out how many wounds the unit took and add them to the units current wounds. If this is enough to remove a model, you remove it.

Your method of calculating, the cannonball could roll 6 for it's wounds, only 1 of which would apply (because the unit already had 2 wounds), then 1 on the second model, leaving the unit with 1 wound.

Alternatively, when the cannon rolls a 6 it does 3 wounds (model profile) then rolls a 1 and stops. The units 2 wounds are then added and another model is removed.

The unit carries the wounds, not any specific RnF model.

Yes, however you arte told to carry on when the model is slain. The model was slain, so the cannon ball MUST carry on

You rol a D6, see if the model was slain. Was the model slain? Yes (D6+2 that you are told to apply to the next attack >= 3W)

Depends on whether a) the ndxt attack does wounds and then these are added or b) these are added to the calculation of wounds for the nsxt attack. The text is ambiguous (how unusual...).
The fact that units own the wounds and the method for calculating cannon balls suggest to me that you should always be working it out on a fresh model.

The wounds are still added to the next attack, but after the calculations are finished.

I'm convinced this is a very poorly worded rule.
The cannon vs ogre rule that creates this whole mess really should have an example, rather than just the after thought of, "hey, wouldn't it be cool if a cannon ball got stuck in a fat guy".

Agreed. I emailed GW with the following question, for what it is worth:

"If a cannon hits and wounds the first model of a unit of multi-wound models (with 3 wounds each) that has 2 wounds carried over from an earlier attack, and the cannon rolls a 2 for its d6 wound roll, does the cannon ball continue? If so, does the unit still have 1 wound carried over? (pg. 45 and pg. 113)"

You might as well have asked your mother. GW's hotline is not a place to get rules questions answered. Ask them the same question 3 times and you will get 4 different answers.

 Grey Templar wrote:
You might as well have asked your mother. GW's hotline is not a place to get rules questions answered. Ask them the same question 3 times and you will get 4 different answers.

My mother said to always add to the first hit.
Should we start a poll on what mothers say?

-Matt

I'm not asking them for their hotline. I sent it to the FAQ email so it can get added to the FAQ. Presumably, the FAQ means a lot more than your mom.

Only when its actually published.

Any reply you get isn't valid, it could easily be faked.