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I grow tired of being murdered by doomscythes. CSM are my main army, and though I own a few very small armies, I have a significant daemon army. However, times are tough and I don't have the new daemon codex. Is there anything in there that I can use to blow fliers out of the sky a little easier? Flak ML are not all they're cracked up to be. I feel like I am being forced to buy a bastion or at least an ADL to get some real antiair firepower. Are helldrake's hades autocannons ANY good for this? I would think my havocs with ACs would do a much cheaper job at it. Don't get me wrong, having a couple of enemy fliers in the air is not the end of the world for me, but it is very pesky, and I am just looking for a cheap solution. I'm really thinking Chaos Bastion with one of the wonderful guns on top along with my Havocs on the battlements (and maybe their champion on the gun) would be pretty nasty and hellish for the enemy to blow up.

5 Havocs
- 4x Autocannons
- ADL with Quad

Champion sits on the Quad while the Havocs use their ACs

I agree, get an Aegis or Bastion, give it quadgun. Also, Heldrake? Or IG alliance and Vendetta?

I'm not up to starting IG yet. That's going to be a chore. Still curious about how well helldrakes do as AA. All you ever read about on here is people template spamming.

Munga wrote:
I'm not up to starting IG yet. That's going to be a chore. Still curious about how well helldrakes do as AA. All you ever read about on here is people template spamming.

Heldrake with Hades is pretty good anti-air as you can vector strike one flyer for d3+1 S7 hits and then shoot the same (if it survived) or another one with 4 S8 shots. It results in an average of 1.32 hullpoints per turn against AV11 flyers before cover saves. Very effective for its price.

Munga wrote:
I grow tired of being murdered by doomscythes. CSM are my main army, and though I own a few very small armies, I have a significant daemon army. However, times are tough and I don't have the new daemon codex. Is there anything in there that I can use to blow fliers out of the sky a little easier? Flak ML are not all they're cracked up to be. I feel like I am being forced to buy a bastion or at least an ADL to get some real antiair firepower. Are helldrake's hades autocannons ANY good for this? I would think my havocs with ACs would do a much cheaper job at it. Don't get me wrong, having a couple of enemy fliers in the air is not the end of the world for me, but it is very pesky, and I am just looking for a cheap solution. I'm really thinking Chaos Bastion with one of the wonderful guns on top along with my Havocs on the battlements (and maybe their champion on the gun) would be pretty nasty and hellish for the enemy to blow up.

3 heldrakes, adl with quad gun manned by 4 autocannon havocs and ally in a platoon of guard with lascannons and a squadron of 3 vendettas.
done


no seriousy autocannon heldrakes are ok, but not great. The flamers is strong while the autocannon verison is a little weak. Flakk missiles are not worth it at all.

Havocs with autocannons and quad gun are pretty much it. Havocs with ML and skyfire get pricey.

I've had success with hadesfiend and oblits.

Hadesfiends are able to throw up enough firepower that something is bound to hit while oblits have the flexibility of lascannons and assault cannons to have something worthwhile to fire at the flyers.

I use a DP 3 heldrakes and 4 missile havocs with quad cannon.

Heldrakes
Autocannon Havocs /w Quad Gun
Obliterators

These are the most reliable options. You could also go Iraqi military style and just shoot your CSM squads plasma shots in the air, like you just don't care!

If you ally in some daemons you can get a bit more.

A LoC/Herald of Tzeentch can give you prescience, which greatly increases the chances of your havocs hitting the flyers.
A LoC can also take shots directly at the flyers if you give it a shooting weapon.
You can also bring a soul grinder -- which has a few skyfire attacks. Don't expect stellar results from it, but its a multi-purpose unit.

I'd say +1 for the havocs with AC, though don't leave their numbers at 5 or they wont be able to shoot at any flyer, ever.
They'll just die to the Tesla opening salvo

The Hades Drake is great as well for anti air, it's durable, can Vector Strike hard and can then shoot with a 360 arc of fire, meaning rear-arc shooting for AV10 soft spots

And who doesn't love a giant Gatling gun ?

Helldrakes with the hades cannon are good as they can Vector strike then pew-pew enemy flyers. Also, an ADL with quad-gun or Icarus Lascannon is good as you can use interceptor to shoot it down the second it comes in from reserve (before it drops its laserbeams of doom on you). Flakk missiles are decent as you get to fire full BS S8 shots, but a lot of CSM players don't like to spend the 25pts on it (15 for the ML and 10 for Flakk I believe). Also, I don't recall which one it is, but the Defiler/Soul Grinder has skyfire on one of it's weapon systems, so bringing one or two of those is not a bad idea either.
The other thing you can do is simply snap fire all your shots (that are capable of glancing/penetrating) at them and hope to get 6s to-hit. Any form of re-rolls are good (think twin-link, Prescience, etc), but it's still pretty tough.
TBH, a good CSM list will most likely include a helldrake or three and a Defiler/Soul Grinder of three anyways.. So, since you already have some in your list, use them! Don't stress the extra points on flakk or ADL etc unless you really want/need to.

-Skrog

Skrog wrote:
Helldrakes with the hades cannon are good as they can Vector strike then pew-pew enemy flyers. Also, an ADL with quad-gun or Icarus Lascannon is good as you can use interceptor to shoot it down the second it comes in from reserve (before it drops its laserbeams of doom on you). Flakk missiles are decent as you get to fire full BS S8 shots, but a lot of CSM players don't like to spend the 25pts on it (15 for the ML and 10 for Flakk I believe). Also, I don't recall which one it is, but the Defiler/Soul Grinder has skyfire on one of it's weapon systems, so bringing one or two of those is not a bad idea either.
The other thing you can do is simply snap fire all your shots (that are capable of glancing/penetrating) at them and hope to get 6s to-hit. Any form of re-rolls are good (think twin-link, Prescience, etc), but it's still pretty tough.
TBH, a good CSM list will most likely include a helldrake or three and a Defiler/Soul Grinder of three anyways.. So, since you already have some in your list, use them! Don't stress the extra points on flakk or ADL etc unless you really want/need to.

-Skrog

Flakk missiles are str7, and 25 points on top of a 13 point Ld 8 non fearless body is way too much.

also soul grinders are a Chaos Daemon choice, not a CSM choice

defilers do not have skyfire

CSM have no way to get prescience

 Exergy wrote:

Flakk missiles are str7, and 25 points on top of a 13 point Ld 8 non fearless body is way too much.
also soul grinders are a Chaos Daemon choice, not a CSM choice
defilers do not have skyfire
CSM have no way to get prescience

Thanks for clearing those up. =)
I don't play CSM so I'm not intimate with their codex I always get the Defiler/Soul Grinder confused as they look VERY similar.
I still stand by the use of helldrakes as anti-air as I've watched them used to great effect on multiple occasions.
Also, many CSM players will run Deamon allies and the OP stated he has a large Deamon force so I would definitely suggest bringing Deamon allies for the Prescience and/or Soul Grinder w/skyfire.
...of course, the ADL is a lot cheaper if you're looking to run your force with no allies.

-Skrog