Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

first of all, concede me a single rage sentence: I freaking hate legion.

ok, thank you. then, back to adult people. this evening I was badly beaten (again) by a legion player.
my list was:
pKaya
s griffon
gorax
feral
stalker
d wylder
stones
fulcrum

his list was
the abomination caster (can't remember name atm, the one w wings)
carnivean
seraph
shredder x2
forsaken
full cavalry
cavalry solo

now, you can tell me that Kaya isn't the best 'lock available, but wasn't this a game where you can win using pretty everything? I'm using her by months now, and still struggle to win.
you can say the battle engine wasn't a wise choice, but I wanted to try it. plus, it did pretty good tbh.

problem is LoE army was able to outmanouver mine, and near everyone has ranged attacks. the two heavyes are both capable to hit models behind others. I wasn't able to reach his models without exposing mine to (at least) one turn of heavy fire.
another thing: how I'm supposed to use stones? I use them near every game and they sit on the table doing nothing. to teleport one piece, they can't move in the turn, then the teleported piece can't move. only use i can see is bringing pieces back, like spirit door, but it's a (coward) game style I strongly dislike.

sorry for the grief, but this evening game was quite frustrating. I play to get some relief from real life hassles, and this game was no fun at all.
please note that my problem is not losing, really. i can lose every game and still have fun, if there's a game. problem is having no chances at all.
also, sorry for typos and lack of capital letters, I'm on a phone atm.

Sounds like your biggest problem is lack of bodies in that list. You have plenty of big nasty things, but nothing that can provide screening or clog up charge lanes. Your list also doesn't have much to help you get to melee, where it badly needs to be. Meanwhile, his is built pretty solidly to be extremely mobile.

Overall, there are very few models that aren't worth taking. That doesn't mean you can throw a list together without much thought for synergy. Yours doesn't seem to have a whole lot, while his has a bunch. I'd drop the fulcrum and at least one beast (and probably the wilder, in that case) and get some infantry in there. The lack thereof is hurting you tremendously.

Also, if you don't like hit and run tactics, perhaps you should use a caster other than either Kaya? That sort of play is integral to winning with her.

Anything can win, but anything isn't necessarily the best against everything else. There are definitely bad match ups, which is why you're allowed two (or sometimes more) different lists to choose between in tournaments, to cover any bad matchups.

Legion in generally is a hard match up for Circle because so many of Circle's tricks don't work aginst them (no clouds, no hiding in forests, no stealth), but it certainly isn't a forgone conclusion, it just requires playing a different sort of game, which can be tricky. pKaya definitely isn't the answer, I've heard people have success with Baldur, eKruger and Kromac, though I'm not a circle player myself.

pKaya wins by teleporting herself or a warbeast in to finish the
job. If you can't keep her alive long enough to do that, then
maybe her playstyle isn't suitable for you.

Before that point you're sending a heavy warbeast out to fight
and then teleporting it back to her, hopefully behind some kind of
screen.

I'm not a Circle player, but isn't Kaya the hit and run specialist?

This is the game that you can win with anything, but you need to play to that things strengths, and if youre intentionally going against it, you will lose

If you want to be balls to the wall aggressive, pick a caster that supports that tactic

Also I personally recommend getting at least 1 infantry squad

Bad matchups exist and are exacerbated by lower point levels. 50 pts (IMO) is a lot more balanced overall due to the room to include the proper support and problem solvers along with the meat of your list.

With that said, I don't take pThags against Harby or pKreoss because Purification is a thing. I guess I should add Goatvahna to that list. It can be very frustrating to try to win at such a huge disadvantage, but much like everyone else has stated, that is why there are multi-list formats and if its a casual game, either play something else if its not working or have your opponent try different casters to see what she excells at and where she falls short. Knowing your match ups is a large part of this game.

To add to this, scenarios add a huge aspect to the game. I don't know if you're playing the new SR 2013 but if you're not, you should be. Caster kill is terrible and can really tilt how some casters perform. For example Kallus' feat loses some umph when the opponent can simply back off a turn without any penalty. In SR, you can buy yourself CPs, time, extra rounds and it turns an otherwise ok feat into a very good one.

Thanks everyone for replies.
I wasn't willing to drop Kaya to avoid the "lose with a caster/lock --> try another one as it has to be crap" loop. I really wanted to learn to use her, to improve my skill and learn from my mistakes, but after months using her, I finally have to surrender. It seems that her playstyle is definitely not for me.

I was in a similar position with my playstyle, I was using Shae & 'that cannon' as it's called in my meta along with bodies & jacks aplenty. I was getting some wins but my optimal playstyle is a tank, when I slipped into that mindset with my pirates I was getting squished royally. My change was a little more drastic in that I picked up Khador & Harkevich, it's going a lot better now i'm using a force which synergises to my strengths as a player.

well, I'm currently wondering where to go next.

I'm evaluating other casters as Kromac and eMorvana, or even eKaya. Kromac and eKaya looks very beast oriented, so I could like their gamestyle. yesterday, though, I felt the lack of shooting (with just the BE providing some, if only I had managed to bring it on the cavalry earlier...).

I'm also thinking on changing faction for a while...

I already own lots of Cryx pieces (played em in 1st edition), and loved them a lot (especially Asphixious with just nodes and lots of infantry).

I also own a minimum PoM force (2p battlebox, BE (main reason I started them), vassal of menoth, v. mechanic. I should buy a choir at least, and maybe some wrack and a Reckoner.

I don't know... I wouldn't want to drop Circle, but totally changing faction for a while could be nice, too.

My normal opponent used ekaya against me the other day wih a gnarlhorn, gorax, feral w.wolf & alpha along with stones with keeper and tharn bloodtrackers. The entire list had stealth to deal with shooting but was still quite hit and run particularly with ekayas feat. If that could work for you then give it a try, it won an assasination against me whilst we were playing a SR13 scenrio and gave me plenty to worry about. Was very close though.

Gabbi wrote:
now, you can tell me that Kaya isn't the best 'lock available, but wasn't this a game where you can win using pretty everything? I'm using her by months now, and still struggle to win.
you can say the battle engine wasn't a wise choice, but I wanted to try it. plus, it did pretty good tbh.

problem is LoE army was able to outmanouver mine, and near everyone has ranged attacks. the two heavyes are both capable to hit models behind others. I wasn't able to reach his models without exposing mine to (at least) one turn of heavy fire.
another thing: how I'm supposed to use stones? I use them near every game and they sit on the table doing nothing. to teleport one piece, they can't move in the turn, then the teleported piece can't move. only use i can see is bringing pieces back, like spirit door, but it's a (coward) game style I strongly dislike.

sorry for the grief, but this evening game was quite frustrating. I play to get some relief from real life hassles, and this game was no fun at all.
please note that my problem is not losing, really. i can lose every game and still have fun, if there's a game. problem is having no chances at all.
also, sorry for typos and lack of capital letters, I'm on a phone atm.

on stones. teleportation is a useful trick to get something past a wall of bodies. its there to help you bypass something, not to help you get up the board. their secondary uses are healing, and blocking charge lanes. seriously. 3 of those things in the right places can be incredibly annoying to heavy beasties manoeverings.

you also state you've been losing with Kaya for months now, but you also state quite clearly that you're using her wrong. you had plenty chances with her. the frustration is at your end, im afraid. her party trick is spirit door. she's all about the repeat alphastriking. Circle are a faction all about the alphastrike, and she turns it up a notch. charge. wreck. pull back with spiriti door. you dismiss is out of hand (wrongly, and fooloshly) as cowardly. its not. its good tactical sense. "play like you got a pair" and "Page 5" are about playing smart, which means bringing your A-game, and using all the tricks at your disposal, not simply charing forward into a grindfest.

Kayas repeat alphastriking takes the attrition game out, as a factor. all those beasts cant shoot you if you've either (a) killed them, or (b) are no longer there to be a target, can they?

Gabbi wrote:Thanks everyone for replies.
I wasn't willing to drop Kaya to avoid the "lose with a caster/lock --> try another one as it has to be crap" loop. I really wanted to learn to use her, to improve my skill and learn from my mistakes, but after months using her, I finally have to surrender. It seems that her playstyle is definitely not for me.

Just play to her strengths instead of grinding it out like a khadoran. Outside of a few specific builds, circle dont play that game. Improvements can only come from playing smart. playing smart involves playing to your strengths. Dont like it? Well, you have to change and evolve your own personal style if you want to make her work. Otherwise try a different caster. But ultimately, its down to you, not your army choice.

Gabbi wrote:well, I'm currently wondering where to go next.

I'm evaluating other casters as Kromac and eMorvana, or even eKaya. Kromac and eKaya looks very beast oriented, so I could like their gamestyle. yesterday, though, I felt the lack of shooting (with just the BE providing some, if only I had managed to bring it on the cavalry earlier...).
.

Circle do plenty shooting. bloodtrackers, woldstalkers, and nyss hunters are our premier shooty pieces.

Kromac and ekaya both play the same alphastriking game as pKaya-eKaya through her feat, and Kromac via wild aggression, and the abuse of Lightning strike from a stalker. they're both about hitting hard, hitting fast and then denying the trade/attrition game by redeploying/pulling back out of retaliation range. Goatvahna is an attrition/placement and jamming caster but since she's so new, most folks dont have a good grip on her just yet. She will offer a great alternative to the alphastrikers - i'll certainly be pairing her with Kromac.

thanks again for every reply. let me say I never had the will to negate my faults. this is the main reason I've sticked with Kaya for so long, I was trying to understand her/her playstile, instead of whining she's no good. but, maybe, she's not good for me. I don't know, dropping her, or dropping Circle at whole, even for some time, feels like a defeat more than losing games. so I would prefer not. to the other hand, would be any good trying to fit into a game style I obviously don't like and/or have not a sense for?

btw, has anyone some nicely done bat rep involving Circle to suggest to me? I ask because I ask here for suggestions, every user kindly post suggestions and everything looks perfectly clear on the forum's pages. then, once on the tabletop, I often find myself wondering what I should do with this or that piece. having no other circle player in my group, to watch play, maybe reading bat reps could help me to improve? just a thinking...

 Gabbi wrote:

another thing: how I'm supposed to use stones? I use them near every game and they sit on the table doing nothing. to teleport one piece, they can't move in the turn, then the teleported piece can't move. only use i can see is bringing pieces back, like spirit door, but it's a (coward) game style I strongly dislike.

If you are having this much trouble "grasping" Shifting Stones, I strongly urge you to read the following threads:

http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?66442-Tactica-Shifting-Stones-(-now-with-pictures!-)
http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?140159-Common-shifting-stone-formations
http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?43136-Tactica-Stone-Keeper-(Shifting-Stones-UA)

And if you wan't to learn how a master Circle player plays, I recomend the following videos:

http://endgamegaming.net/2013/03/20/...s-round-1-raw/ Kromac vs Cryx (eGaspy)
http://endgamegaming.net/2013/03/22/...s-round-3-raw/ eMorv vs Khador (eButcher)
http://endgamegaming.net/2013/03/23/...s-round-4-raw/ eMorv vs Menoth (pKreoss)

Blaque has done a lot of Battle Report work and his thread is helpful. He has another one but you'd have to search for it on the FnF forums.

http://www.focusandfury.com/forum/index.php?topic=4470.0

 Gabbi wrote:
thanks again for every reply. let me say I never had the will to negate my faults. this is the main reason I've sticked with Kaya for so long, I was trying to understand her/her playstile, instead of whining she's no good. but, maybe, she's not good for me. I don't know, dropping her, or dropping Circle at whole, even for some time, feels like a defeat more than losing games. so I would prefer not. to the other hand, would be any good trying to fit into a game style I obviously don't like and/or have not a sense for?

That sounds like a step on the path to winning and becoming a better player. Admitting something needs to change. The next question to answer is "what?". Your caster? Your force? Your faction? You?

And as far as it seeming like a defeat the bigger defeat would be to leave everything as it is and not gain anything from your losses. Afterall, this gam benefits from a 'fight smarter' approach.

once more, thanks for links, suggestions and kind words.

lots of stone uses that I've never imagined =)

I was having similar problems with pDoomshaper when I started playing. I lost pretty much all my games for like six months because of small mistakes with fury management or letting Doomie get too close because I play aggressively. I switched to Grim Angus and pretty much overnight I started winning games all over the place. Sometimes you've got to find the 'lock that suits you, unfortunately.

speaking of adding a unit, I'm on the fence between 3x wolf riders or 6x bloodtrackers + Nuala.
I'm leaning a bit toward the latter, although the greater mobility of the cavalry appeals me...

[EDIT]
I've discarded Druids for the moment as I would like to get a shooting option (plus vs the Legion they lose some efficiency).
other options could be the druid with small wolds (don't seem to get much love, isn't it?), or the mercenary Nyss...

 Gabbi wrote:
speaking of adding a unit, I'm on the fence between 3x wolf riders or 6x bloodtrackers + Nuala.
I'm leaning a bit toward the latter, although the greater mobility of the cavalry appeals me...

[EDIT]
I've discarded Druids for the moment as I would like to get a shooting option (plus vs the Legion they lose some efficiency).
other options could be the druid with small wolds (don't seem to get much love, isn't it?), or the mercenary Nyss...

Me I'd go full blood trackers and Unalaska if you can swing it. Wolf riders are
something of a finesse unit. Blood trackers, too, but they are at least more
straightforward than the cav.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Stupid autocorrect

Thanks, will get 'em