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Regular Dakkanaut




Looking in the BRB, it looks like a IC with infiltrate (ala shadowsun) can join a non-infiltrators unit and confer infiltrate to the entire unit, yes? There is language stating a non-infiltrate IC can't join a unit with infiltrate, but nothing in the other direction, or am I missing something?
   
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Huge Hierodule





Louisiana

That's it. An infiltrate IC can join a squad of regular guys and infiltrate with them, but a non-infiltrator IC cannot join them as well.

Shadowsun can grab some crisis suits and infiltrate, but that XV-8 commander suit can't come along for the party.

Been out of the game for awhile, trying to find time to get back into it. 
   
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Powerful Phoenix Lord





Buffalo, NY

Not quite. Infiltrators are deployed last (after everybody else is deployed). In order for an IC to attach to a unit he has to either join them in reserves or be deployed in coherency with them. If the unit does not have Infiltrate and are not going into reserves, they are deployed with the rest of the army, before the IC can attach to the unit and confer Infiltrate.

Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia 
   
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Huge Hierodule





Louisiana

 Happyjew wrote:
Not quite. Infiltrators are deployed last (after everybody else is deployed). In order for an IC to attach to a unit he has to either join them in reserves or be deployed in coherency with them. If the unit does not have Infiltrate and are not going into reserves, they are deployed with the rest of the army, before the IC can attach to the unit and confer Infiltrate.


Damn, looks like that part is right.

Well what about outflanking? That still confers to the squad, correct?

Been out of the game for awhile, trying to find time to get back into it. 
   
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Powerful Phoenix Lord





Buffalo, NY

Yes, the IC joins the unit in Reserves and as such can Outflank.

Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia 
   
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Infiltrating Broodlord





Eureka California

Couldn't you also start the IC embarked in a transport along with the infiltrating unit as long as it has not joined the unit?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/06 23:54:03


-It is not the strongest of the Tyranids that survive but the ones most adaptive to change. 
   
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The Hive Mind





If it isn't joined to the unit it would be illegal for it to be embarked with the unit. Transports can o ly carry one unit at a time (Combat Squads excepted).

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Infiltrating Broodlord





Eureka California

rigeld2 wrote:
If it isn't joined to the unit it would be illegal for it to be embarked with the unit. Transports can o ly carry one unit at a time (Combat Squads excepted).


"Transport can carry a single Infantry unit and/or any number of Independent Characters (as long as they are also Infantry), up to a total number of models equal to the vehicle's Transport Capacity." page 78 BRB

Unless their is something that keeps a unit with infiltrate from starting the game embarked in a non-dedicated transport I'd say you can, you just have to deploy the transport as normal as the infiltrate SR is not conferred to the transport. You start a unit and an IC in the transport as the transport capacity rules say it can hold them but you then have two conflicting rules.
"If an Independent Character (or even more than one) and a unit are both embarked upon the same vehicle, they are automatically joined" page 79 BRB
"An Independent Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of infiltrators during deployment." page 38 BRB

Can't overrides can and you end up with a non-attached IC in the transport with the unit. Of course as soon as the first turn starts your no longer in deployment and they join...

You are correct however if you actually want to infiltrate your infiltrators. It has to be a dedicated transport for them to confer the infiltrate SR to it while embarked and the rules for deployment on those are more strict and specifically state an IC must be attached.

Also entirely possible I missed something here, please point it out to me if I have. I'm a nid player so the transport rules are not as familiar to me as others but I really should know them in just as much detail to make sure my opponents don't pull some trickery on me.

-It is not the strongest of the Tyranids that survive but the ones most adaptive to change. 
   
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Huge Hierodule





Louisiana

It's a simple principle - ICs join units either in reserve, or during deployment -- no other times before the game begins. Now in the case of shadowsun and a crisis team -- first the entire army deploys, infiltrators deploy last. As shadowsun wants to infiltrate, she must wait until last. The crisis team has no infiltrate rule so must deploy normally or go in reserve. The end result is a normally deployed crisis team and an infiltrated shadowsun, or they join in reserves and may outflank (or deep strike, but that's unrelated to this rule query).

Been out of the game for awhile, trying to find time to get back into it. 
   
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The Hive Mind





 Abandon wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
If it isn't joined to the unit it would be illegal for it to be embarked with the unit. Transports can o ly carry one unit at a time (Combat Squads excepted).


"Transport can carry a single Infantry unit and/or any number of Independent Characters (as long as they are also Infantry), up to a total number of models equal to the vehicle's Transport Capacity." page 78 BRB

Yes, a single unit.

You start a unit and an IC in the transport as the transport capacity rules say it can hold them but you then have two conflicting rules.
"If an Independent Character (or even more than one) and a unit are both embarked upon the same vehicle, they are automatically joined" page 79 BRB
"An Independent Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of infiltrators during deployment." page 38 BRB

Those don't conflict. We're talking about an IC with Infiltrate joining a unit. But you cannot ever deploy an infiltrating unit until after both armies deploy and its time to infiltrate - meaning that you can't deploy him in the transport until after the transport has been deployed.

Can't overrides can and you end up with a non-attached IC in the transport with the unit. Of course as soon as the first turn starts your no longer in deployment and they join...

You've read the rules backwards. You really can't have a non-attached IC in a transport.

You are correct however if you actually want to infiltrate your infiltrators. It has to be a dedicated transport for them to confer the infiltrate SR to it while embarked and the rules for deployment on those are more strict and specifically state an IC must be attached.

No, the reason it doesn't work isn't because of "stricter" deployment rules, its because a unit with infiltrate cannot deploy normally. You don't have the option.

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Infiltrating Broodlord





Eureka California

rigeld2 wrote:
can't deploy him in the transport until after the transport has been deployed.


So neither an infiltrating IC or any infiltrating unit for that matter can be deplyed in a non-dedicated transport due to the order of deployment laid out in the Infiltration SR. Wasn't sure how that interacted, TY.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/08 03:45:26


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Shas'la with Pulse Carbine





Just came across this thread

Not quite. Infiltrators are deployed last (after everybody else is deployed). In order for an IC to attach to a unit he has to either join them in reserves or be deployed in coherency with them. If the unit does not have Infiltrate and are not going into reserves, they are deployed with the rest of the army, before the IC can attach to the unit and confer Infiltrate.

This "timing" thing is strange and contradicts the GW FAQ and the Infiltrator rule.

The SM FAQ
“See, But Remain Unseen: Shrike (and any models in a unit chosen from Codex: Space Marines that he has joined before deployment) benefit from the Infiltrate specialrule)."


If it works as implied here, Shrike cannot confer Infiltrate to a unit because he cannot join a unit "before deployment". This quite clearly implies it's possible for an IC to join a unit before deployment.

An Independent Character can begin the game already with a unit, either by being deployed in unit coherency with it or, if the unit is in
reserve, by informing your opponent of which unit it has joined.


Units that contains at least one model with this special rule are deployed last, after all other units (friend and foe) have been deployed

All that has to happen in order for an IC to confer infiltrate to a unit is to ensure that both of those criteria above are true.

Was the independent character deployed in coherency? Yes.
Was the unit deployed last? Yes.

An Independent Character without the Infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of Infiltrators during deployment.

This further confirms that an IC may join a unit before deployment, else, if the IC is already on the table this rule would be entirely superfluous. The fact that it's in the BRB supports that it's the RAW an IC can join a unit before & during deployment. This applies to infiltrators as infiltrators are still placed during deployment.

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Dakka Veteran





The BRB, page 121 states that during the normal deployment phase, both players deploy their forces "except for those who chose to use their infiltrate special rule"

Would this indicate to anyone else that you could choose NOT to use your infiltrate USR? It does say you choose to use it, which would indicate that it isn't compulsory.

There is NO SUCH THING as MORE ADVANCED in 40k!!! There are ONLY 2 LEVELS of RULES: Basic and Advanced. THE END. Stop saying "More Advanced". That is not a recognized thing in modern 40k!!!!
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Under the couch

paidinfull wrote:
The SM FAQ
“See, But Remain Unseen: Shrike (and any models in a unit chosen from Codex: Space Marines that he has joined before deployment) benefit from the Infiltrate specialrule)."


If it works as implied here, Shrike cannot confer Infiltrate to a unit because he cannot join a unit "before deployment". This quite clearly implies it's possible for an IC to join a unit before deployment.


Yup, this has been an issue for several editions now.

In 5th edition, when people noticed that Shrike couldn't technically infiltrate with a unit, GW errata'd the IC rules specifically to allow ICs to join units prior to, rather than during, deployment.

For some inexplicable reason this change wasn't carried over to 6th edition, and so we're back to SBRU not actually functioning as it was originally intended.

   
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Shas'la with Pulse Carbine





 insaniak wrote:
paidinfull wrote:
The SM FAQ
“See, But Remain Unseen: Shrike (and any models in a unit chosen from Codex: Space Marines that he has joined before deployment) benefit from the Infiltrate specialrule)."


If it works as implied here, Shrike cannot confer Infiltrate to a unit because he cannot join a unit "before deployment". This quite clearly implies it's possible for an IC to join a unit before deployment.


Yup, this has been an issue for several editions now.

In 5th edition, when people noticed that Shrike couldn't technically infiltrate with a unit, GW errata'd the IC rules specifically to allow ICs to join units prior to, rather than during, deployment.

For some inexplicable reason this change wasn't carried over to 6th edition, and so we're back to SBRU not actually functioning as it was originally intended.

How so?

I've seen this "timing" presented multiple times, but I don't see anywhere in the rules that this is supported.
Where are the criteria for placing multiple units at the same time or one after the other? *scratches head*
Similarly, if we are holding to strict RAW, one could only ever have a single unit of infiltrators. If you place two units of infiltrators, one of them would not be "deployed last,
after all other units".

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The Hive Mind





 BetrayTheWorld wrote:
The BRB, page 121 states that during the normal deployment phase, both players deploy their forces "except for those who chose to use their infiltrate special rule"

Would this indicate to anyone else that you could choose NOT to use your infiltrate USR? It does say you choose to use it, which would indicate that it isn't compulsory.

It says that under deployment but under the actual Infiltrate USR it says "Units that contain at least one model with this special rule are deployed last". The actual Infiltrate rule takes precedence here.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
paidinfull wrote:
I've seen this "timing" presented multiple times, but I don't see anywhere in the rules that this is supported.
Where are the criteria for placing multiple units at the same time or one after the other? *scratches head*
Similarly, if we are holding to strict RAW, one could only ever have a single unit of infiltrators. If you place two units of infiltrators, one of them would not be "deployed last,
after all other units".

Since the Infiltrate USR says "Units that contain..." that means that all of your units with that rule are deployed after all other units - as a collective.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/03 21:23:56


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what about units given infiltrate via the chaos warlord power that lets you infiltrate d3 units?

for instance, is it legal to give infiltrate to a unit of cultists with an attached chaos lord? if my understanding is correct this isn't legal because the lord isn't actually attached to the unit until after deployment.
   
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Powerful Phoenix Lord





Buffalo, NY

You would have to give Infiltrate to both the Lord and the cultists.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/03 22:05:08


Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia 
   
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Dakka Veteran





that's what i thought, thanks.

so in essense, even though infiltrate confers to a squad from an IC, the only end-use of it is to attach an IC to a squad and outflank them.
   
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Under the couch

By current RAW, yes.

Having said that, it's clear that you're supposed to be able to do it, and so many players have no issue with it. If they even realise it's a problem to begin with...

   
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i certainly didn't. i did this to a friend a couple of weeks ago w/ a huron CSM list. had a khorne lord attached to a unit of cultists and infiltrated them. never blinked twice until now.
   
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rigeld2 wrote:
 BetrayTheWorld wrote:
The BRB, page 121 states that during the normal deployment phase, both players deploy their forces "except for those who chose to use their infiltrate special rule"

Would this indicate to anyone else that you could choose NOT to use your infiltrate USR? It does say you choose to use it, which would indicate that it isn't compulsory.

It says that under deployment but under the actual Infiltrate USR it says "Units that contain at least one model with this special rule are deployed last". The actual Infiltrate rule takes precedence here.


While I'd normally agree that the USR takes precedence, if something tells us we can choose to use the USR, or not to, if you choose not to, being that the rule you're citing is part of the USR you can choose not to use, it wouldn't apply.

There is NO SUCH THING as MORE ADVANCED in 40k!!! There are ONLY 2 LEVELS of RULES: Basic and Advanced. THE END. Stop saying "More Advanced". That is not a recognized thing in modern 40k!!!!
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Let me see if i remember right:

Infiltrate lets you outflank and infiltrate
while scout lets you Outflank, infiltrate and do a move before turn 1 was it?

 
   
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Executing Exarch






Dracoknight wrote:
Infiltrate lets you outflank and infiltrate
while scout lets you Outflank, infiltrate and do a move before turn 1 was it?
Scout doesn't let you Infiltrate.
   
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The Hive Mind





 BetrayTheWorld wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
 BetrayTheWorld wrote:
The BRB, page 121 states that during the normal deployment phase, both players deploy their forces "except for those who chose to use their infiltrate special rule"

Would this indicate to anyone else that you could choose NOT to use your infiltrate USR? It does say you choose to use it, which would indicate that it isn't compulsory.

It says that under deployment but under the actual Infiltrate USR it says "Units that contain at least one model with this special rule are deployed last". The actual Infiltrate rule takes precedence here.


While I'd normally agree that the USR takes precedence, if something tells us we can choose to use the USR, or not to, if you choose not to, being that the rule you're citing is part of the USR you can choose not to use, it wouldn't apply.

The actual USR (the rule I quoted) says that simply possessing the special rule is enough to force the delay in deployment - choosing not to use it doesn't matter.

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Dakka Veteran





rigeld2 wrote:
 BetrayTheWorld wrote:
rigeld2 wrote:
 BetrayTheWorld wrote:
The BRB, page 121 states that during the normal deployment phase, both players deploy their forces "except for those who chose to use their infiltrate special rule"

Would this indicate to anyone else that you could choose NOT to use your infiltrate USR? It does say you choose to use it, which would indicate that it isn't compulsory.

It says that under deployment but under the actual Infiltrate USR it says "Units that contain at least one model with this special rule are deployed last". The actual Infiltrate rule takes precedence here.


While I'd normally agree that the USR takes precedence, if something tells us we can choose to use the USR, or not to, if you choose not to, being that the rule you're citing is part of the USR you can choose not to use, it wouldn't apply.

The actual USR (the rule I quoted) says that simply possessing the special rule is enough to force the delay in deployment - choosing not to use it doesn't matter.


Actually, it would matter. If you can choose not to use the special rule, that would be choosing not to use it in it's entirety, not picking a single portion of the rule you choose not to use, unless specified otherwise.

There is NO SUCH THING as MORE ADVANCED in 40k!!! There are ONLY 2 LEVELS of RULES: Basic and Advanced. THE END. Stop saying "More Advanced". That is not a recognized thing in modern 40k!!!!
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Shas'la with Pulse Carbine





My friend and I had a chance to talk about this on Sunday, and I think I see where everything is kinda breaking down.

if you look at p121 you'll find the rules for deployment and the "steps" that are there. Technically, there are two steps during deployment.
1- Determine Warlord Traits
2- Deploy Forces

Where I realized my disconnect was: I didn't understand the "timing" argument because I don't see any specific breakdown of "phases" within "Deploy Forces". When my friend and I spoke, I attempted to use a Magic The Gathering analogy where each phase is broken down into steps. It became clear to me when we spoke that it can be perceived that there is this amorphous "Infiltrator Step".

I definitely feel I have a much better understanding of where the "No you can't" camp are coming from. Take a look at 121. Here it talks about "DEPLOYING INFILTRATORS AND REDEPLOYING SCOUTS". You will note, that this heading does not actually delineate a step in the Deployment process as the other titles refer to DEPLOYING WITHIN A FORTIFICATION,DEPLOYING TRANSPORT VEHICLES, DEPLOYING MULTIPLE UNIT CHOICES. It's really just the rule for deploying infiltrators during Deployment. We know it's not a "step" that we skip over because the same wouldn't be said if we weren't deploying within transports/fortifications/multiple unit choices.

With that clarified, if we look at the actual rule I realized that there is definitely some ridiculous wording and loophole garbage because of the RAW.

The sequence for Infiltrators and Scouts is the same in all Eternal War missions. First, both players deploy their forces (apart from any units left kept as Reserves or that chose to use their Infiltrate special rule). When both players have deployed their main force, then they deploy their Infiltrators (as described on page 38). Finally, they can redeploy units with the Scouts special rule (see page 41 ).

Units that contain at least one model with this special rule are deployed last, after all other units (friend and foe) have been deployed


So where the "no you can't camp" have it, is that it's not about an individual player placing their models, but both players. That criteria has to be met for the Infiltrator rule to be in effect. A player can not "hold their unit back" from their main force if they do not have the infiltrator rule.

What I realized though, was that the following scenario does meet the Infiltrator criteria as presented by RAW.

-Opponent has a force with no infiltrators
-I have a force with Shadowsun + a single bodyguard model

Opponent chooses to deploy first. After his main force is deployed, I deploy my force, specifically leaving the single bodyguard model and shadowsun to the end. Taking Shadowsun in my left hand and the single bodyguard model in my right hand I place them both, at the very same time, onto the table, 18" away from my opponent's force and within 2" of one another.

This scenario does meet the RAW, albeit it is a very *specific* scenario. I have deployed them last, after all other units, and I have deployed within coherency. This "specific scenario" is you had to deploy second and your opponent had to have no infiltrators.

My point is to illustrate there isn't a "time" when one unit is deployed before another as defined in the RAW. I realize it sounds silly, but I felt that it was easier to see with just two models. For example, you would not consider placing a heavy choice before a troop choice in this rule set because they are all deployed at the same time. It's sort of like damage in MTG where there is no stack. It just happens at the same time.
In my example, I didn't "hold" my unit over an undefined phase or "skip a step". I totally see how this is slightly confusing as we are used to physically placing them one at a time, and in previous editions we alternated unit by unit, player by player, however since they are all technically just "deployed" in this edition, it makes this RAW particularly confusing.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/06 14:42:39


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Under the couch

paidinfull wrote:
So where the "no you can't camp" have it, is that it's not about an individual player placing their models, but both players.

It's really not.

It simply comes from the fact that you deploy your main force, and then you deploy your infiltrators. Whether or not both players have infiltrators makes no difference to that.

Deploying Infiltrators is a separate step that comes after you have deployed everything else.


   
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Agile Revenant Titan





Fayetteville NC

Page 39, I believe, discusses specifically how IC's join a unit at the beginning of the game. Once you review this, it becomes pretty clear by the rules that Shadowsun does not confer Infiltrate to a unit.

However, I would like to see GW write an FAQ on this to ensure what they wrote is actually what they intended.

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Kansas

So Shrike infiltrating attached to a unit does not work?

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