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vs veq grav mostly kills its target plasma you can probably split fire to two monster same
vs knight neither kills target. But plasma does more.
Plasma does have much higher varience though
Double vehicle damage on one unit that might get wiped T1 just doesnt seem worth it when the eye will boost my kastellan my onagers and my balistarii or stygies will protect them all
Really im comparing top row plasma vs 1st/second row grav in a brigade and there really isnt that much in it Grav wins on every count with the eye and loses against knights without. VEQ and monster are tied at killed it.
How does everyone feel about the Implacable Determination WLT for Guard? I noticed also that it can give max advance to ANY unit, including your AdMech units. Given Kastelans can now become assault, these are 14" advance Robots with BS5+ shooting? Alternative, you can do insane 24" MMM with Guard. If you go second, you can run up to an objective and steal it with ObSec.
But yeah, I am trying to figure out my WLT and relic. I don't really want an AdMech relic; my list has no melee, so Mask is out; Raiment or Pimp Cane seem to be the only good options, but less than ideal. At the same time, I do want a 5+ CP recycler.
I think it very much depends on your list grand strategist is still strong. Given we will burn CP. Old grudges is good if you have a lot of AM vehicles. For Adm in considering the agripinaa -1 dam or the CP regen trait.
Well you also have to factor in that the eye may never get to go off turn 1. Most people dont deploy there vehicles on the 12" line and we dont exactly deploy our stuff on the 12" line either, so with a 6" move you wont be able to activate the eye turn 1 unless you advance which means you cant fire your characters weapons and he is now out of position. And even then there will still be a big chance that your eye will not be with 18" to trigger for your army.
Now ive also done a few other comparisons for us to go off vs the most common types of enemy vehicles and monsters. VS a PBC with +2 to hit and reroll 1's to hit and wound the grav does 10.08 damage, a Alaitoc Wave Serpent would be 7.02 damage and a alaitoc Hemlock would suffer 9.45, vs a Flyrant with catalyst off would be dealt 8.64, vs Mortarion with miasma of pestilence he would suffer 5.19 and against stygies dakkabots its 9.07 damage.
+2 to hit rerolling 1's to hit and plasma specialists get the following on the same targets: 18.15, 18.9, 21.27, 22.69, 13.61 and 20.42. So as you can see it makes a huge difference, and whilst yes it doesnt kill the bigger stuff in 1 volley, it means we have to spend less rescources finishing it off with the rest of our army or it is degraded enough to ignore it for the rest of the turn.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/14 14:21:27
How many kans can a killa kan kill if a killa kan can kill kans?
Given that i stick the eye on an enginseer i dont mind not firing his laspistol to advance it sems a fair trade. The risk of not firing a laspistol is minimal.
Does depend on the list against a non vehicle list you dont take it. Against an aeldari list if they go first theres usually something in advance range
In an ik list go 2nd the gallent/errant/warden will often move in range and auto cover 3 turns is solid
Against the lone castellan youll get to it at some point but if he plays it well not till t2-3
I always deploy on the line my vanguard/hoplites are on it and advancing till they are in range and the eginseer is 1 step behind. In my last tourney i activated it 50% of the tine t1(by going second and advancing.
And if they only units in the army where a single unit of kataphrons id agree but in a brigade buffing 1 unit is just not worth the trade of all the others being better
Are you talking about bringing an enginseer in your admech detachment or the IG detachment. Because I'm not sure if you can give an IG wlt to a unit being taken from your admech codex. I'd double check the codex too, if I remember right the admech codex and IG codex have different keywords. I'm at work or else I'd open my codexes and check right now
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U02dah4 wrote: Given that i stick the eye on an enginseer i dont mind not firing his laspistol to advance it sems a fair trade. The risk of not firing a laspistol is minimal.
Does depend on the list against a non vehicle list you dont take it. Against an aeldari list if they go first theres usually something in advance range
In an ik list go 2nd the gallent/errant/warden will often move in range and auto cover 3 turns is solid
Against the lone castellan youll get to it at some point but if he plays it well not till t2-3
I always deploy on the line my vanguard/hoplites are on it and advancing till they are in range and the eginseer is 1 step behind. In my last tourney i activated it 50% of the tine t1(by going second and advancing.
And if they only units in the army where a single unit of kataphrons id agree but in a brigade buffing 1 unit is just not worth the trade of all the others being better
50% chance turn 1 to buff all units vs 1 vehicle target for 16% is better than 1 unit getting 85-100% buffed in damage output? Even against a guard army with their whole army in cover turn 1 the 6 kataphrons can split fire into 3 chimera based vehicles and 11.34 damage to each one or 2 leman russ and deal 13.61 damage to each one. If it were grav you cant split fire affectively with those kataphrons, they will either all have to fire at the marked target to get the most of the 16.6666% boost or loose out on their effectiveness vs multiple targets. The plasma doesnt suffer that negative downside, if your enginseer can get in range to get that reroll 1's the plasma kataphrons will be in range to fire their phosphor blasters at those vehicles too which means 3 dead VEQ, 2 dead leman russes, more dead GEQ and MEQ and more wounds vs knights.
I cant see myself justifying spending a relic slot on an enginseer who's sole task is to run up the board to get a chance to boost the damage of your army by 16.66% vs a single vehicle when that one vehicle (or 3) against Ryza would already be dead by the plasma destroyers. The extra 2 - 3 dead GEQ or MEQ is mariginal when our whole army pumps out enough shots to trash can chaff units. You wouldnt then have to waste onagers and kastellans fire power to then overkill a heavily damaged target. It may work for you but i wouldnt bet my armies synergy on a 50% coin toss if the stars align and allow my enginseer to reach 18" of the Knight, Shadowsword, erm well thats it, as anything else Ryza destroyers will annihilate in one volley. Hell, i wouldnt even do the eye on a baneblade chassis as the plasma specialists do 34.03 wounds to it!!!! The only target that survives are ones with invun saves better than a 5++ or Mortarion.
I view both Agripinaa and Ryza equals with their dogma as both can be easily avoided (psychic powers, charges from line blocking terrain, pile ins and consolidates and specific relics and units that cancel overwatch to begin with and for Ryza just killing the target to begin with before it strikes). The warlord traits are both equally meh... -1 damage to a guy who is most likely out of the itty gritty fight for the majority of the battle or +1 str and damage to a dominus weapons which is ok but i wouldnt go for it. Then relic wise ive gone over why the eye isnt fully optimal and the XCIX is ok but once again i wouldnt choose to buff a dominus' weapons over buffing and repairing my army better.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And we will most likely see a rise in scout and armoured Sentinels after CA aswell as doomsday arks and other lightly armoured but relatively cheap vehicles.
Against these light targets the plasma destroyers can split fire again, d6 per scout Sentinel is 7.09 damage or 5.67 per armoured Sentinel. Doomsday arks 2 destroyers would do around about 12 damage after quantum shielding. Grav would do 12.15 to scout Sentinels so a single destroyer cant even kill a scout Sentinel, 12.96 to armoured sentinels so once again 1 cant kill a single Sentinel and does about 11 damage to a Doomsday ark.
In all these cases i have given the enemy the benefit of cover for us going first and you dont get to reroll 1's to wound as you wouldnt pick sentinels as the target and there is no chance in hell youd reach a Doomsday ark turn 1 to get the eye off.
If you can get it to work great, but its not that great, it is essentially a subpar Lieutenant who takes up a relic slot and doesnt contribute much else to the army as he is quite disjointed in his position. Ad mech really should have a sub-domina that gives us a reroll 1s to wound from the get go but our dex is very devoid of characters and options you would think admech would get.
We should have about 6 types of tech-priest to pick from not 2.
**If the Eye was more like Relic of Lost Cadia or the Writ of the Living Muse i woud be fully onboard with you, but it has 2 criterias that it has to meet before it goes off and its gimmick vs chaos vehicles looks good until you realise chaos doesnt have particulary tough vehicles except the PBC.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/14 16:54:31
How many kans can a killa kan kill if a killa kan can kill kans?
Yes a strategy predicated on 1 unit having first go will lose every time you go second
If i go second either my destroyers come back at full strength (strat) or atleast the rest of my army gets a 16% buff vs a big vehicle
As to dogma most armies can't play around it - either they ignore it completely or they are assault in which case its huge. I am also debateing the offensive agripinaa option vs stygies but its less of a clear comparison. I havnt played vs a baneblade in my last 4 tourneys knights are a more frequent superheavy and yes plasma is better assuming you go first ryzas dogma is of little value ever
Im not sure scout sentinels is a prime concern
The relic of cadia is a 1 shot aoe bubble the eye can pick a different target each turn and buffs your whole army . The relic therefore better t1 but the aggregate benefit over multi turns is the eye
Your strategy is all about t1 going second you lose and even going first dark reaper flyers am artillery will carve them up before t2
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/14 19:19:44
Yes I feel like we haven't talked a lot about durability. What is great with Dakkastelans is that four of them is 24W at T7, 2+/4++ against shooting, which gives quite a lot of resilience against first turn fire. 6 Kataphrons are 18W, 4+/6++ base at T5, and cost more than 4 Robots I believe. Now it may be argued that you can hide them out of LoS with these weird ITC house rules but I'm not sure you could do that every game, and even then some armies are just very mobile or have big models that will get a LoS. If you don't have first turn and lose 5 Kataphrons, you can pay 2 CP to have the last not fleeing but you'll have only one Kataphron left nonetheless. With Agripinaa, you pay 3CP more but your battle plan can still work at least. The Ryza Destroyers list is indeed very powerful but really alpha strike based, be wary of this. Don't forget to a least pay 1cp for a 5++ whatever your FW is.
U02dah4 wrote: 1) yes a strategy predicated on 1 unit having first go will lose every time you go second
If i go second either my destroyers come back at full strength (strat) or atleast the rest of my army gets a 16% buff vs a big vehicle
As to dogma most armies can't play around it - either they ignore it or they are assault in which case its huge. I am also debateing the offensive agripinaa option vs stygies but its less of a clear comparison. I havnt played vs a baneblade in my last 4 tourneys knights are a nore frequent superheavy and yes plasma if better assuming you go first ryza is of little value ever
Im not sure scout sentinels is a prime concern
The relic of cadia is a 1 shot aoe bubble the eye can pick a different target each turn and buffs your army . The relic therefore better t1 vut the aggregate benefit over multi tirns is the eye
Your strategy is all about t1 going second you lose and even going first dark reaper flyers am artillery will carve them up before t2
You can easily hide kataphrons in a ruin so that they cannot be seen and you can also deploy out of line of sight and out of range of the enemies weapons. In the tournaments i attend at every single ruins ground floor is covered up, that means no line of sight to them. This works for going first and second. To begin with you can deploy them further back than there grav equivalents due to them having 6" further range on their main armament. Next the only things that will be killing them when they are out of sight by being in ground floor ruins or placed behind terrain that blocks line of sight for things big enough as knights and wraithknights is mortars, basilisks, ignis weapons, hive guard, smart missile and grey knights with a psychic power. How often do you seen ignis weapons, smart missiles that are within 24" turn 1 and grey knights?. Mortars arent really that affective either, a cadian heavy weapon team with take aim deals a whopping 0.79 damage so 3 squads of them and dotted around 6 infantry squads will deal 3.97 wounds.... not exactly scary, and id be questioning why mortars would be targeting them when i have other infantry to kill that arent as durable. Now with basilisks i would also be questioning why on earth he is targeting them say over my vehicles and robots? And anyway 3 basilisks will deal 5.44 damage to destroyers with enhanced bionics, so that is 1 dead and its getting remade. There are other Non LOS weapons out there like the Manticore but how often do you see them?
Combat is easily avoidable with correct screening and perfect spacings so it will only happen if you are sloppy turn 1. Now when it comes to Agripinaa's dogma, it is quite avoidable, my Orkz would just Tokyo Drift into them cancelling out there overwatch, charge from LOS blocking terrain and vehicles or charge a durable unit into it first line a bonebreaka. My Deldar has the Vexator mask so you wont be getting overwatch and things like Slashcaptains, Harlies, Nids and GC can easily negate overwatch entirely. Dogma dealt with. Now with Fresh Converts, if someone can kill 6 Ryza Destroyers turn 1 they will destroy 6 Agripinaa Destroyers turn 1 so no coming back. 3 PS Plasma Destroyers are still more efficent than 6 Grav Destroyers. 3 PS Destroyers do the same damage output as non PS 6 Destroyers and still beat Grav Destroyers by about 19%. It really isnt a comparision in terms of actually damage dealt on the table.
This whole tactic works from the get go, if you go first or second, if you have lost some dudes. It doesnt require a squishy eye carry sprinting up the field to mark a knight, he is a 4 wound MEQ... with marching up the board you are putting him at risk of getting sniped by fliers, psychic powers, actual snipers and shield breaker missiles. That also seems like you are putting all your eggs in one fragile basket. A 16% buff is nice, but your whole army doesnt need it vs one vehicle no matter how big. If the relic didnt need 2 quotas to met we would be whistling a different tune! But 18" and being a vehicle is very hard to achieve turn 1 and a smart opponent will know what he does and either move away (vehicles move faster than infantry) or eliminate him which isnt hard.
I would also start re-evaluate scout Sentinels now.... for 44pts you get a heavy flamer, 45pts a missile launcher, 35pts a multilaser, 38pts for a heavy bolter, 40pts for a plasma cannon or autocannon and 50pts for a lascannon. Seeing how each one is cheaper than a 51pt grav and cognis flamer Kataphron with greater speed, a 9" move extra at the start of the game, benefit hugely from Cadians, Catachan, Vostroyan, Armaggedon and Tallarn and are as durable as 2 Kataphrons whilst also filling out their Brigade slots, yeah they should be a concern....
In response to dark reapers, they cant see kataphrons if they are on the ground floor or ruins, fliers wont deal a huge amount of damage to a 6 man squad and i proved my point about artillery before. As for the Relic of Cadia, having it go off WHEN you want it, vs ANYTHING you want and also granting re-roll 1's to and hit wound and all hits and wounds vs chaos for all units within 12" of a CC that is always taken in any detachment and provides more benefits than an Enginseer could ever dream of its a huge deal instead of the Eye that maybe wont go off, maybe will never make it there, that maybe the Enginseer is dead is a ditch or maybe there is just no vehicles to use it on.
Using Plasma Specialist works whether you go first or second due to LOS blocking terrain and placement, every turn without prerequisites, against multiple targets at the same time, doesnt waste a relic slot or chucks an Enginseer away and deals DOUBLE the damage Agripinaa Kataphrons will do to a Castellan with a 3++ which means you dont have to delegate more rescources to put it down. You would have to fire 3 neutron lasers at the Knight before a 1 would statistically come up for a total of another 4.24 damage dealt to that knight. Thats 11.8 damage all together from 4 units whilst the 6 plasma destroyers have done 13.61!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Aaranis wrote: Yes I feel like we haven't talked a lot about durability. What is great with Dakkastelans is that four of them is 24W at T7, 2+/4++ against shooting, which gives quite a lot of resilience against first turn fire. 6 Kataphrons are 18W, 4+/6++ base at T5, and cost more than 4 Robots I believe. Now it may be argued that you can hide them out of LoS with these weird ITC house rules but I'm not sure you could do that every game, and even then some armies are just very mobile or have big models that will get a LoS. If you don't have first turn and lose 5 Kataphrons, you can pay 2 CP to have the last not fleeing but you'll have only one Kataphron left nonetheless. With Agripinaa, you pay 3CP more but your battle plan can still work at least. The Ryza Destroyers list is indeed very powerful but really alpha strike based, be wary of this. Don't forget to a least pay 1cp for a 5++ whatever your FW is.
6 plasma and phosphor kataphrons is 288pts vs the 440pts for 4 triple phosphor kastellans. Turn 1 both have cover or a 3+ 5++ (enhanced bionics) for the katas and a 1+ 4++ for the dakkabots. Turn 2 the katas will have a 2+ 4++ from AaAC whilst also regaining a model and repairing one d3 if needed. The kastellans just heal d3. A strat can be used to heal either unit twice for 2d3. Kataphrons have 18 wounds total to the dakkabots 24. But take in mind kataphrons are 152pts cheaper, can hide in magic ruins and hit better. Either way you should be taking both in a list.
Another point no one has raised up yet, Agripinaa is pretty much capped at only having 6 in a unit, nothing is stopping someone from taking 6-12 kataphons. Yeah thats 576pts at the max and harder to hide but its more damage output than a Castellan for under its points cost, has 36 wounds, access to heals and regens, hits more accurate, is objective secured, isnt as neutered to high damage weapons and is fairly resilent turn 2 onwards from small arms.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It is basically our version of the loota star. The loota star is 515pts with 30 grots for grot shield and doesnt shoot aswell as the 12 kataphrons. Its a crazy build but it could very well work.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2018/12/14 20:26:44
How many kans can a killa kan kill if a killa kan can kill kans?
I have a 1k tournament incoming, Didnt play in tournaments yet and only played against Necrons, Tyranids ( always lost), and once against deathwatch.
Any tips especially regarding deployment? Also what do I do against a A: Shoot heavy list; B Melee heavy list; C Knights
My list is Cawl, enginseer, 4x 5 Vanguards with each one plasma, 1 stocked rangersquad, 5 tazer infiltrators, 1 neutronlaser crawler Edit: and 3 Dakkabots
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/15 01:51:18
So your terrain is always perfect rectangular boxes which enable your shooting army to hide perfectly in while your aggro army perfectly hides out of LOS. No right angles only so your opponent can fly over. Ork drifting most certainly doesnt work unless you have atleast declared a charge somewhere my frontlines are all out in the open why stick them behind terrain to be charged by orks when i can get cover anywhere its almost like you expect your opponent to play badly.
Your right I have no idea why your opponent would target your squishier higher damage output unit with artillery it makes no sense and yes i recognise not everyone has it.
Again i would estimate that castellan 1/6 games at most and even then you dont do double damage if your opperateing at 3 models.but since your terrain is always a perfect square your opponents will never bring artillery and none of them will think about shooting your kataphrons your golden. Plus once you fire you are in the open you only get 1 shot then squish because even that opponent who doesnt know what your doing will oh and vect is funny.
How on earth can the 4w enginseer be sniped by flyers hes surrounded by hoplites and vanguard on all sides against that sort of mobility again you assume your opponent plays badly
As to model limit 5 would seem optimal given moral 12 you cant heal and a third of your armies in 1 squishy unit. Its not all about alpha
Automatically Appended Next Post:
0XFallen wrote: I have a 1k tournament incoming, Didnt play in tournaments yet and only played against Necrons, Tyranids ( always lost), and once against deathwatch.
Any tips especially regarding deployment? Also what do I do against a A: Shoot heavy list; B Melee heavy list; C Knights
My list is Cawl, enginseer, 4x 5 Vanguards with each one plasma, 1 stocked rangersquad, 5 tazer infiltrators, 1 neutronlaser crawler
A check his range if he cant you go second then advance towards him 3 turns with cover
B he will come to you castle up around cawl and try and operate at max weapon range
C focus 1 and pray the neutron laser doesnt miss
In the future drop cawl at 2k hes viable at 1k hes just too many points for what he buffs
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/14 20:40:30
vs veq grav mostly kills its target plasma you can probably split fire to two monster same
vs knight neither kills target. But plasma does more.
Plasma does have much higher varience though
Double vehicle damage on one unit that might get wiped T1 just doesnt seem worth it when the eye will boost my kastellan my onagers and my balistarii or stygies will protect them all
Really im comparing top row plasma vs 1st/second row grav in a brigade and there really isnt that much in it Grav wins on every count with the eye and loses against knights without. VEQ and monster are tied at killed it.
We have plenty of other options to kill infantry that outperform Destros though, including Robots, Crawlers, Infiltrators, and Guardsmen...
Higher variance is not a problem when the variance is overwhelmingly to the right of Grav's numbers.
It is true that if you are going to build a mono-FW Brigade, that they can be built in a way to maximize their individual advantages. And Eye is probably the best FW-specific relic. I just think there are very few such advantages in comparison to a mixed Brigade. For example, according to my math, access to Cawl rerolls and Wrath of Mars is much better than the Eye for Robots. And Dominus rerolls and access to Plasma Specialists is much better for Plasmaphrons. Really, only Crawlers and Ballistarii seem to barely edge out as the primary beneficiaries of Dominus rerolls and the Eye.
How does everyone feel about the Implacable Determination WLT for Guard? I noticed also that it can give max advance to ANY unit, including your AdMech units. Given Kastelans can now become assault, these are 14" advance Robots with BS5+ shooting? Alternative, you can do insane 24" MMM with Guard. If you go second, you can run up to an objective and steal it with ObSec.
But yeah, I am trying to figure out my WLT and relic. I don't really want an AdMech relic; my list has no melee, so Mask is out; Raiment or Pimp Cane seem to be the only good options, but less than ideal. At the same time, I do want a 5+ CP recycler.
I think it very much depends on your list grand strategist is still strong. Given we will burn CP. Old grudges is good if you have a lot of AM vehicles. For Adm in considering the agripinaa -1 dam or the CP regen trait.
It's AdMech relics that are my problem. We have a few decent WLTs.
U02dah4 wrote: So your terrain is always perfect rectangular boxes which enable your shooting army to hide perfectly in while your aggro army perfectly hides out of LOS. No right angles only so your opponent can fly over. Ork drifting most certainly doesnt work unless you have atleast declared a charge somewhere my frontlines are all out in the open why stick them behind terrain to be charged by orks when i can get cover anywhere its almost like you expect your opponent to play badly.
Your right I have no idea why your opponent would target your squishier higher damage output unit with artillery it makes no sense and yes i recognise not everyone has it.
Again i would estimate that castellan 1/6 games at most and even then you dont do double damage if your opperateing at 3 models.but since your terrain is always a perfect square your opponents will never bring artillery and none of them will think about shooting your kataphrons your golden. Plus once you fire you are in the open you only get 1 shot then squish because even that opponent who doesnt know what your doing will oh and vect is funny.
How on earth can the 4w enginseer be sniped by flyers hes surrounded by hoplites and vanguard on all sides against that sort of mobility again you assume your opponent plays badly
As to model limit 5 would seem optimal given moral 12 you cant heal and a third of your armies in 1 squishy unit. Its not all about alpha
A quarter of your army actually not a third, most terrain now a days use ruins with 3 to 4 walls making a U or a box shape, this blocks line of sight..... Unless your tables are barren wastes perfect for gunlines? Te last time ive seen ruins with 2 walls was like the beginning of 8th. Due to terrain being quite useless in 8th, events have increased the size, number and house rules for said terrain to make up for the lack of cover in these cases. Most armies in the game can clear away a screen of t3 infantry with a 4(3+) save... our skitarii are not famed for being the most point efficent chaff unit in the game. If you have a perfect screen around your Enginseer, how is it that he reaches anything 18" away to mark up? If the unit infront of him rolls a 1 to advance, he is then trapped behind them..... If he rolls a 6 and the others don have enough movement once again he either stays behind the screen or is out in the open. It is not hard to break chaff lines. Fliers can regularly fly to weak points in your formation and tear apart squishy characters. I have done it with Dark Talons, Storm Ravens, Hemlocks, Dakkajets, Razorwings, Void Ravens and even the over costed Fire Raptor. Snipers also exist in the game, scout snipers are now 13pts if i am not mistaken, alaitoc rangers, our own rangers with arquebus, the new space marine stratagem that makes a unit of (now cheaper again) intercessors with stalker boltrifles get to target out characters and deal MWs on 6,s, Dark Creed Tanatalus, Deathskull players with a Dread Mek Souped up Big Mek picking out your characters with 4d6 shots (possible 6d6 shots), Deathjesters with Curtain Fall, psychic powers, Castellans with shield breaker missiles, the list goes on. If some one wants you Enginseer dead they will do it, it isnt impossible by any stretch of the imagination.
It just seems like your making up that Agripinaa are flat out better than Ryza when you havent test it, and also insinuating that whatever is in the Rzya force is annhilated turn 1 which isnt the case. Even if you are reduced to 3 models, those kataphrons are dealing 6.81 damage to that Castellan with a 3++, whislt your newly regened squad of 6 (which is most likely out of range now as they are only 6" up the board with a 30" range weapon with a knight most likely only 8" up the board...) only deals 7.56 wounds at a 2+ rerolling 1s to hit and wound. So 3 little plasma guys do 0.75 less than your wholllllleeeeee squad of 6. You dont need reroll 1's to wound when each guy does 2.29 damage to your 1.26 per guy. Thats a 68.38% increase in efficiency, correct me if i am wrong but that is better than 16.66% across the whole army, who shouldnt be wasting shots at the castellan.
As for having a larger unit than 6 here is my current thoughts:
10 Ryza destroyers in an imperial bunker or 9 with their Dominus. This bunker is essentially their grot shield, however its toughness 8 with 12 wounds and a 3+ save for only 10pts more than a 3 units of grots and doesnt us up a CP. It does use up a slot out of our 3 detachments but a brigade/2 battalions should be enough. It is also vulnerable to haywire type weapons but also pretty much immune to small arms and poison weapons. 5 can still shoot out of it if the bunker is locked in combat and friendly units can shoot at enemy units engaged with the bunker.
The unit inside then gains an additional 3" of movement from the disembarkment and gains 12 t8 wounds all for 100pts. This bunker also takes up considerably less board space than 9-10 kataphrons and is quite small aswell in terms of drawing line of sight to it (if you use a lot of terrain like events i go to).
It is 532pts for 9 and a bunker or 580pts for 10 and a bunker. This is 65 to 17pts more points than the loota star with its grots, they only use 5CP round 1 (enhanced bionics) and 4CP from there on compared to the lootas 5-7CP turn 1 (mob up, grot shield) and 5-6CP (grot shield) from then onwards.
Pros:
2+ rerolling 1's to hit
More durable than 25 lootas
Better weapons than lootas
Has a better average of shots that arent screwed over by deffguns own number of shots mechanic
Has a better chance of killing Knights than Lootas
Regens wounds and models
Can split fire more effectively
Has access to better stratagems like Aquisition at All Costs andInfoslave Skull
Cons:
Cant teleport across the board to get better line of sight
Worse LD Affected more by negatives to hit but not to the point of hitting on 5+
Cant get 150 shots like lootas + DDD
Thats you magic bunker for you, morale and model loss problems are solved to a degree with a lump of ceramite and plasteel protecting your kataphrons from the worst of the enemy fire. If a castellan shoots at the bunker with his volcano lance, his plasma decimator cannot shoot the unit inside or any other of his weapons for that matter. You may loose one to the bunker dying but 8-9 is still going to kick up some havoc. May be all your eges in one basket, but the same can be said for the knight and atleast the the kataphrons are vastly cheaper than the knight and has better benefits and synergy too.
How many kans can a killa kan kill if a killa kan can kill kans?
vs veq grav mostly kills its target plasma you can probably split fire to two monster same
vs knight neither kills target. But plasma does more.
Plasma does have much higher varience though
Double vehicle damage on one unit that might get wiped T1 just doesnt seem worth it when the eye will boost my kastellan my onagers and my balistarii or stygies will protect them all
Really im comparing top row plasma vs 1st/second row grav in a brigade and there really isnt that much in it Grav wins on every count with the eye and loses against knights without. VEQ and monster are tied at killed it.
We have plenty of other options to kill infantry that outperform Destros though, including Robots, Crawlers, Infiltrators, and Guardsmen...
Higher variance is not a problem when the variance is overwhelmingly to the right of Grav's numbers.
It is true that if you are going to build a mono-FW Brigade, that they can be built in a way to maximize their individual advantages. And Eye is probably the best FW-specific relic. I just think there are very few such advantages in comparison to a mixed Brigade. For example, according to my math, access to Cawl rerolls and Wrath of Mars is much better than the Eye for Robots. And Dominus rerolls and access to Plasma Specialists is much better for Plasmaphrons. Really, only Crawlers and Ballistarii seem to barely edge out as the primary beneficiaries of Dominus rerolls and the Eye.
How does everyone feel about the Implacable Determination WLT for Guard? I noticed also that it can give max advance to ANY unit, including your AdMech units. Given Kastelans can now become assault, these are 14" advance Robots with BS5+ shooting? Alternative, you can do insane 24" MMM with Guard. If you go second, you can run up to an objective and steal it with ObSec.
But yeah, I am trying to figure out my WLT and relic. I don't really want an AdMech relic; my list has no melee, so Mask is out; Raiment or Pimp Cane seem to be the only good options, but less than ideal. At the same time, I do want a 5+ CP recycler.
I think it very much depends on your list grand strategist is still strong. Given we will burn CP. Old grudges is good if you have a lot of AM vehicles. For Adm in considering the agripinaa -1 dam or the CP regen trait.
It's AdMech relics that are my problem. We have a few decent WLTs.
I agree Suzeteo, its what i have been trying to say. We dont need more anti infantry, we need tools to kill the current meta which is still knights, eldar and horde. The table i did before shows that the plasma can easily switch between anti tank to anti infantry without loosing too much efficiency. A lose of 2-3 guardsmen or orkz dead isnt huge when youve already killed 12 to begin with. I do also agree with you about the Eye being the best named forgeworld relic, but there are others that out class it and dont require as many boxes to be ticked to allow it to go off. CA and Vigilus has opened up kataphrons in such away that we have never seen before.
How many kans can a killa kan kill if a killa kan can kill kans?
Aaranis wrote: Yes I feel like we haven't talked a lot about durability. What is great with Dakkastelans is that four of them is 24W at T7, 2+/4++ against shooting, which gives quite a lot of resilience against first turn fire. 6 Kataphrons are 18W, 4+/6++ base at T5, and cost more than 4 Robots I believe. Now it may be argued that you can hide them out of LoS with these weird ITC house rules but I'm not sure you could do that every game, and even then some armies are just very mobile or have big models that will get a LoS. If you don't have first turn and lose 5 Kataphrons, you can pay 2 CP to have the last not fleeing but you'll have only one Kataphron left nonetheless. With Agripinaa, you pay 3CP more but your battle plan can still work at least. The Ryza Destroyers list is indeed very powerful but really alpha strike based, be wary of this. Don't forget to a least pay 1cp for a 5++ whatever your FW is.
I think AdMech is fantastically durable in 8E. But it's not toughness, wounds, and inv. saves that make the difference (though we do have those), it's the fact that neither Robots, Ballistarii, nor Kataphrons have wound tables. On top of this, repairs brutally punish opponents for failing to kill a target.
The magic bunker rules have historically hurt us a lot more than they have helped us due to our lack of decent infantry. It was one of the contributors to AdMech underperformance in ITC. But now that we have Kataphrons, we should abuse the rule.
0XFallen wrote: I have a 1k tournament incoming, Didnt play in tournaments yet and only played against Necrons, Tyranids ( always lost), and once against deathwatch.
Any tips especially regarding deployment? Also what do I do against a A: Shoot heavy list; B Melee heavy list; C Knights
My list is Cawl, enginseer, 4x 5 Vanguards with each one plasma, 1 stocked rangersquad, 5 tazer infiltrators, 1 neutronlaser crawler
Not sure if Cawl is efficient in a 1000 point list, especially without Kastelans. A Dominus would be better. That being said, if you want to run an infantry heavy list, it's totally do-able at 1000 points. Just make them Graia or Stygies.
Against shooting heavy lists, it's all about getting range and LOS on your opponent. Know their ranges and movement well, and try to kill their biggest anti-vehicle shooting threats first. Use your infantry to grab objectives and force them to commit their infantry.
Against melee heavy lists, you need to create depth between your enemy and you. Try to get the long deployment and place objectives spaced relatively far apart. Break up your army to form either layers of defense or castles around objectives. A layered defense is deploying infantry further out from your army, typically out of LOS and perpendicular to the line of advance (imagine a line between your opponent and your artillery), which forces your opponent to engage in melee earlier than he would like. A castle consists of a heavy shooting piece and supporting infantry or table edge to form a wall against charges. Keep them within range of one another so that they can support one another with fire. You might lose out on points the first few rounds, but the enemy knows that they have to come to you, since your superior shooting will take their toll on his melee units if they camp objectives. Focus on surviving the assaults in rounds 1-2 and gradually take control in rounds 3-6.
Special note for Tyranids: Do not ever employ a layered defense against them. They will use Overrun to get free moves.
Against a pure Knights list, tar pit the Gallants with infantry to prevent them from getting to your artillery. Focus on killing his Castellan and/or Crusader.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/14 23:06:56
Little something i just noticed, for master of biosplicing the Servitors dont have to be from your forgeworld, so we can include them in a guard battalion/brigade to regen our kataphons, as servitors dont benefit from anything in our actual codex. 614pts for a guard brigade min.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/14 23:19:31
How many kans can a killa kan kill if a killa kan can kill kans?
I think you sold me on the value of the RYZA destroyers. I did the math a few pages back and they are our 1 good knight killer. And knights can't shoot infantry in terrain or bunkers hiding inside of terrain pieces. What do you think of this variant on what I was working on:
MARS brigade + RYZA patrol
Spoiler:
MARS Cawl + 2x enginseer [engi is free WL] 2x10 infiltrators 1x4 servitors [for biosplicing] 5x10 rangers with omnispex 1x8 vanguard 3x1 autocannon ballistari 3x1 neutrons
RYZA - specialist detachment Dominus with volkite [specialist WL for CP] 1x6 plasmaphrons
If I want to use a bunker I would either need to start mixing up the brigade into a soup (which is probably the right idea), or I would need to switch to soup battalions, or I would need to cut into the infiltrators (I don't like this because it reduces the payload/damage of the list too much and decreases the reason to take cawl).
This is actually a 100% admech list that i think feels plausible. It is a shooting list for sure, with only a little bit of counter assault (the infiltrators), which means it is vulnerable to lists that can really hide in terrain forever. But I like its ability to answer the dark reaper / castellan problem better than the dakkabots star.
Cawl Engi - MARS (free warlord, probably monitor malevelous and the skitarii RRhits in fight phase relic) Engi - RYZA (splice WLT with 1CP) 2x10 rangers with omnispex + 2x9 rangres + 1x8 vanguard MARS 2x10 infiltrators MARS 1x4 servitors AGRIPINNA (so I can refil their squad for 1CP) 3x1 autocannon ballistari MARS (kind of lame tax units) 3x1 neutron MARS ( I still think neutron are better because when they have good targets, they are the best shooters in the game)
And the big one: 1x8 RYZA plasmaphrons with blasters (not bringing the TPD since i can get rr1 to hit in shooting from the canticle, but going down 1 plasmaphron is equivalent to RR1s in the shooting phase)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
deffrekka wrote: Little something i just noticed, for master of biosplicing the Servitors dont have to be from your forgeworld, so we can include them in a guard battalion/brigade to regen our kataphons, as servitors dont benefit from anything in our actual codex. 614pts for a guard brigade min.
AGRIPPINA servitors can be restored from 1 model to 4 models for 1CP.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/14 23:59:42
I think you sold me on the value of the RYZA destroyers. I did the math a few pages back and they are our 1 good knight killer. And knights can't shoot infantry in terrain or bunkers hiding inside of terrain pieces. What do you think of this variant on what I was working on:
MARS brigade + RYZA patrol
Spoiler:
MARS
Cawl + 2x enginseer [engi is free WL]
2x10 infiltrators
1x4 servitors [for biosplicing]
5x10 rangers with omnispex
1x8 vanguard
3x1 autocannon ballistari
3x1 neutrons
RYZA - specialist detachment
Dominus with volkite [specialist WL for CP]
1x6 plasmaphrons
If I want to use a bunker I would either need to start mixing up the brigade into a soup (which is probably the right idea), or I would need to switch to soup battalions, or I would need to cut into the infiltrators (I don't like this because it reduces the payload/damage of the list too much and decreases the reason to take cawl).
This is actually a 100% admech list that i think feels plausible. It is a shooting list for sure, with only a little bit of counter assault (the infiltrators), which means it is vulnerable to lists that can really hide in terrain forever. But I like its ability to answer the dark reaper / castellan problem better than the dakkabots star.
Cawl
Engi - MARS (free warlord, probably monitor malevelous and the skitarii RRhits in fight phase relic)
Engi - RYZA (splice WLT with 1CP)
2x10 rangers with omnispex + 2x9 rangres + 1x8 vanguard MARS
2x10 infiltrators MARS
1x4 servitors AGRIPINNA (so I can refil their squad for 1CP)
3x1 autocannon ballistari MARS (kind of lame tax units)
3x1 neutron MARS ( I still think neutron are better because when they have good targets, they are the best shooters in the game)
And the big one:
1x8 RYZA plasmaphrons with blasters (not bringing the TPD since i can get rr1 to hit in shooting from the canticle, but going down 1 plasmaphron is equivalent to RR1s in the shooting phase)
Finally someone agress with me Im currently typing up a list even if it is 23:48pm here haha!!! Just so you know to get Noospheric Mindlock off on the second list you need a Dominus that you dont have so you will be going off on BS 4+ and the overcharge may kill them, unless you play it safe and just do Plasma Specialists for Str 7 + 1 to wound and Damage 2. I think ii prefer the first list more just due to you missing some synergy with the Ryza destroyers
This is where i am at atm with 211pts left to go (I like to name all my units ):
If I was going to run an almost guard brigade, I would make a few tweaks to that list. I don't think that RYZA onagers are that great.
RYZA - servitor specialist battalion
Dominus (specialist WLT) + Enginseer
1x9 plasmaphrons
2x5 rangers
1x4 dakkabots (might as well give the +1 to hit, got the CP)
Bunker
VALHALLA brigade - artillery specialist detachment
3x1 company commander (grand strategist natural WLT + artillery WLT and artillery relic that lets you ignore cover)
3x4 ARGIPPINA servitors
3x1 flame scout sentinels
6x10 guardsmen
3x1 wyverns
Wyverns can get reroll to hit for 2CP, and for 2CP more that one wyvern can shoot twice, and then the relic gives you ignore cover, and the artillery WLT makes 6+ to wound an additional -1, and wyverns by default reroll to wound. That is some obscene "killing infantry in cover" firepower. And the VALHALLA guys all stand in front and shoot into combat when they are tied up.
Wulfey wrote: If I was going to run an almost guard brigade, I would make a few tweaks to that list. I don't think that RYZA onagers are that great.
RYZA - servitor specialist battalion
Dominus (specialist WLT) + Enginseer
1x9 plasmaphrons
2x5 rangers
1x4 dakkabots (might as well give the +1 to hit, got the CP)
Bunker
VALHALLA brigade - artillery specialist detachment
3x1 company commander (grand strategist natural WLT + artillery WLT and artillery relic that lets you ignore cover)
3x4 ARGIPPINA servitors
3x1 flame scout sentinels
6x10 guardsmen
3x1 wyverns
Wyverns can get reroll to hit for 2CP, and for 2CP more that one wyvern can shoot twice, and then the relic gives you ignore cover, and the artillery WLT makes 6+ to wound an additional -1, and wyverns by default reroll to wound. That is some obscene "killing infantry in cover" firepower. And the VALHALLA guys all stand in front and shoot into combat when they are tied up.
I marked them Ryza otherwise they would have 0 heals haha good catch on the Agripinaa Servitors, could save me an extra 20pts. And i was thinking Wyrens now that they are cheaper. With an Astrapath they can ignore cover too. Also i forgot about the Artillery detachment, you sneaky man
Supressive Fire negating U02dah4's overwatch again
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/15 00:34:18
How many kans can a killa kan kill if a killa kan can kill kans?
Aaranis wrote: Yes I feel like we haven't talked a lot about durability. What is great with Dakkastelans is that four of them is 24W at T7, 2+/4++ against shooting, which gives quite a lot of resilience against first turn fire. 6 Kataphrons are 18W, 4+/6++ base at T5, and cost more than 4 Robots I believe. Now it may be argued that you can hide them out of LoS with these weird ITC house rules but I'm not sure you could do that every game, and even then some armies are just very mobile or have big models that will get a LoS. If you don't have first turn and lose 5 Kataphrons, you can pay 2 CP to have the last not fleeing but you'll have only one Kataphron left nonetheless. With Agripinaa, you pay 3CP more but your battle plan can still work at least. The Ryza Destroyers list is indeed very powerful but really alpha strike based, be wary of this. Don't forget to a least pay 1cp for a 5++ whatever your FW is.
I think AdMech is fantastically durable in 8E. But it's not toughness, wounds, and inv. saves that make the difference (though we do have those), it's the fact that neither Robots, Ballistarii, nor Kataphrons have wound tables. On top of this, repairs brutally punish opponents for failing to kill a target.
The magic bunker rules have historically hurt us a lot more than they have helped us due to our lack of decent infantry. It was one of the contributors to AdMech underperformance in ITC. But now that we have Kataphrons, we should abuse the rule.
0XFallen wrote: I have a 1k tournament incoming, Didnt play in tournaments yet and only played against Necrons, Tyranids ( always lost), and once against deathwatch.
Any tips especially regarding deployment? Also what do I do against a A: Shoot heavy list; B Melee heavy list; C Knights
My list is Cawl, enginseer, 4x 5 Vanguards with each one plasma, 1 stocked rangersquad, 5 tazer infiltrators, 1 neutronlaser crawler
Not sure if Cawl is efficient in a 1000 point list, especially without Kastelans. A Dominus would be better. That being said, if you want to run an infantry heavy list, it's totally do-able at 1000 points. Just make them Graia or Stygies.
Against shooting heavy lists, it's all about getting range and LOS on your opponent. Know their ranges and movement well, and try to kill their biggest anti-vehicle shooting threats first. Use your infantry to grab objectives and force them to commit their infantry.
Against melee heavy lists, you need to create depth between your enemy and you. Try to get the long deployment and place objectives spaced relatively far apart. Break up your army to form either layers of defense or castles around objectives. A layered defense is deploying infantry further out from your army, typically out of LOS and perpendicular to the line of advance (imagine a line between your opponent and your artillery), which forces your opponent to engage in melee earlier than he would like. A castle consists of a heavy shooting piece and supporting infantry or table edge to form a wall against charges. Keep them within range of one another so that they can support one another with fire. You might lose out on points the first few rounds, but the enemy knows that they have to come to you, since your superior shooting will take their toll on his melee units if they camp objectives. Focus on surviving the assaults in rounds 1-2 and gradually take control in rounds 3-6.
Special note for Tyranids: Do not ever employ a layered defense against them. They will use Overrun to get free moves.
Against a pure Knights list, tar pit the Gallants with infantry to prevent them from getting to your artillery. Focus on killing his Castellan and/or Crusader.
Oops forgot the Main pieces, which are 3 Kastelan robots
Still playing around but this is what im working on
Agripinaa Patrol Servitor Maniple
1 x dominous eradicator + macrostubber
1 x destroyers (5grav 3flamer 2 phosphor)
2 x (servitors +1 plasma cannon)
Stygies Brigade
3 x enginseer (1 omniscient mask 1 monitor malevolus)
1 x rangers
5 x vanguard
3x hoplite + Data teather
3 x balistarii (2autocannon one las cannon)
2 x onager neutron laser +2 stubers
1 x kastelan robots (2 robots x 3 phosphor)
Catachan emporers wrath batalion
2 company commanders (1laspistol 1 boltgun)
3 x infantry squad
1x basilisk
deffrekka wrote: Little something i just noticed, for master of biosplicing the Servitors dont have to be from your forgeworld, so we can include them in a guard battalion/brigade to regen our kataphons, as servitors dont benefit from anything in our actual codex. 614pts for a guard brigade min.
Yeah, none of the specialist detachment stuff is coded to Forge World. Which is what gave me the idea of mixed detachments in the first place.
Automatically Appended Next Post: My current working list (it's probably 95% there):
Spoiler:
Mars Spearhead Detachment - 1070 Cohort Cybernetica (-1 CP)
HQ - 190 1x Belisarius Cawl
Heavy Support - 880 6x Kastelan Robot - 18x Heavy Phosphor Blaster
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
1x Onager Dunecrawler - Icarus Array, Broad-Spectrum Data Tether
Group A1: Cawlstar, Enginseer, Crawlers
Group A2: Graia Vanguard, Straken, MiniPriest, 2x10 Guardsmen
Group A3: Implacable Commander, 1x10 Guardsmen
Group B1: Ryza Dominus, Ryza Vanguard, Plasmaphrons, Graia Servitors
Group B2: Commander, 2x10 Guardsmen
These groups are mostly self-sufficient (rerolls, anti-psyker, -1T aura) and can be deployed together or apart. They can also be further divided to grab objectives.
@U02dah4
I actually liked your previous list better. Not sure why the Stygies is in there like that.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2018/12/15 04:08:20
@Suzuteo I think you onto something with the catachans over smash captain. More bodies is better. And RYZA is all the flat 3 damage I need. I would run the servitors in the guard detachment as AGRIPINNA so I can resurrect them.
The servitor dataslates in the ig book and sm book is different than the one in the admech book right? No canticles, different power levels, no forgeworld key word and no canticles. You can use the ability on ig/sm servitors bdcause keyword but nothing more.
Best Painted (2015 Adepticon 40k Champs)
They Shall Know Fear - Adepticon 40k TT Champion (2012 & 2013) & 40k TT Best Sport (2014), 40k TT Best Tactician (2015 & 2016)
Hulksmash wrote: The servitor dataslates in the ig book and sm book is different than the one in the admech book right? No canticles, different power levels, no forgeworld key word and no canticles. You can use the ability on ig/sm servitors bdcause keyword but nothing more.
They have a <FORGE WORLD> but no canticles. I don't mind. I would rather that than break my forge world bonus on expensive units.
0XFallen wrote: Just played with my 1k list against deathwatch.
Now I cant believe how strong their Hqs are, or how weak ours are.
One Hq of his could fly 12", 4++ and a hammer that killed a crawler in 1 turn, and 2 kastelans the other turn while still rerolling all 1s
The 2nd Hq could reroll all misses, hit, wounds, even in overwatch!! While still being good in melee and having a solid ranged weapon.
Im baffeled, please show me light again Omnissiah
He must of been quite lucky with that Watch Captain with thunderhammer. 4 attacks hitting on 3's rerolling ones and wounding on 3's whilst you would still get your 5++ (rerolling 1's by another crawler) and he does 3 damage a swing. The second HQ must of been a Watch Master and used a Mission Tactic/Stratagem vs your Heavy Support options. Maybe try taking a couple squads of arquebus to threaten these characters, they only a 4++ vs them and 4 will ruin his day.
Our HQs are more of a supportive role with healing and reroll 1's to hit but can be a tank if needed and can put out some firepower and melee when required. They just arent front line characters like space marines. We win the long war, marines go for the short war, they cant do attrition well.
What did you use and what did he field?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/15 18:16:56
How many kans can a killa kan kill if a killa kan can kill kans?
0XFallen wrote: Just played with my 1k list against deathwatch.
Now I cant believe how strong their Hqs are, or how weak ours are.
One Hq of his could fly 12", 4++ and a hammer that killed a crawler in 1 turn, and 2 kastelans the other turn while still rerolling all 1s
The 2nd Hq could reroll all misses, hit, wounds, even in overwatch!! While still being good in melee and having a solid ranged weapon.
Im baffeled, please show me light again Omnissiah
He must of been quite lucky with that Watch Captain with thunderhammer. 4 attacks hitting on 3's rerolling ones and wounding on 3's whilst you would still get your 5++ (rerolling 1's by another crawler) and he does 3 damage a swing. The second HQ must of been a Watch Master and used a Mission Tactic/Stratagem vs your Heavy Support options. Maybe try taking a couple squads of arquebus to threaten these characters, they only a 4++ vs them and 4 will ruin his day.
Our HQs are more of a supportive role with healing and reroll 1's to hit but can be a tank if needed and can put out some firepower and melee when required. They just arent front line characters like space marines. We win the long war, marines go for the short war, they cant do attrition well.
What did you use and what did he field?
I had cawl, enginseer, 3 dakkabots, 1 neutronlaser, 5 infiltrators, 1x rangers stocked, 4x5 vanguards with each 1 plasma.
He had the 2 Hqs, rest were mixed squads stormshields, terminators, intercessors, the big intercessors. He deepstriked about half and used the teleport relikt.
I was tabled as I had turn 4 only a single enginseer left
Thx for your time
so 3 squads of them and dotted around 6 infantry squads will deal 3.97 wounds.... not exactly scary, and 
so you will be going off on 
