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I have a rather unhealthy love of the rough rider (scratch built 3 full units of them) And all too often the find them selves dying a rather horrifying death.

While the en mess charge of 30 rough riders can be devastating I've been trying to find a new more reliable use for them. That's when I noticed, they serve well as forward special weapons teams. 5 with 2 melta guns is 75 pts. or with two flamers is 65.
This gives the unit a 12 move due to the cavalry rules, then the use of their special weapons.

While not great this does create a unit which can strike or respond quickly. I plan on running two melta rider units out for a couple games and see how they deal with enemy armor, either front and center against advancing av 14 or speed them up flanks to get at back fielders. 12 in move plus fleet can get them places.

I predict more horrifying death in their future, but I can hope.

And they come with Ap3 weapons.

Really, the way to compare this is to stormtroopers. Both carry two special weapons, both have some Ap3 strength, and both are fast.

The rough riders are only 2/3ds the price, which is a nice pro, and they also start on the table. The problem, though, is that no amount of cavalry movement is going to get you as nearly exactly as where you want to go as deepstriking with airborne assault. Put another way, stormtroopers are faster.

Then you add in the fact that your opponent will likely get to shoot at them before they get to fire their special weapons, and what you're looking at with the rough riders is a fast-response defensive weapon. Odds are extremely good that you already have a pretty serious amount of defensive weaponry in your army between mechvets or platoons. The stormtroopers, meanwhile, can really get upfield and attack stuff in a way that weakly-armored cavalry can't.

And on top of that, the rough riders need to get into close combat to use their Ap3 weapons, rather than getting to apply them in the shooting phase, and the rough riders have only BS3 on their special weapons. And they're not even as good with the special weapons either, because deepstriking flamers is likely getting you more hits per template than running forward will, and it seems more likely you're getting into melta range with the stormies as well.

And the stormies get carapace armor, and can make better use of support units like astropaths, and other tiny things, and in the end, well... stormtroopers are just better, despite the cost.

But this isn't a thread about stormies, it's a thread about rough riders. The special weapon boat isn't the worst idea, but, once again, you're doing something that your compulsory choices like mechvets or platoons are already doing. Furthermore, with platoons, you could just take special weapons squads, which get a third special weapon and can take a demo charge (and score, and don't take FA slots). Two such squads at both ends of your big blob of guardsmen would be better than two rough rider squads that tote the specials.

Honestly, if you're stuck with a fragile, defensive unit, you might as well keep it cheap. Think of them like ratlings. You spend 10 points apiece for something that isn't great, but isn't necessarily bad for its points. If you can keep the price down, you can keep your expectations low, and they won't be quite such a bad idea.

Just take a unit or two at 5-horse strength, and keep them well in reserves. Your opponent probably ignores them (and if you don't, it's not like you sunk a lot of points into them), and maybe you can get a good chance to get some lance action in to knock a wound or two off of a monstrous creature, or something.

I think sometimes people run into problems with rough riders because they do not pre plan how they will compliment other units in their army.

I run 3 squadrons of them, and love them,they work with the rest of my foot guard list,both in functionality and theme. I use cover, maneuver them and then run down things I want to die,and then fully expect them to be gunned down but after theyve done their job it doesnt matter.I love charging them at things like terminators and watching the look on peoples faces when they all or almost all are speared to death.

I truely do not understand why people down them so much,,,each gets 3 pw attacks and an I 10 horse kick to the face attack on the charge,4 for the sarge,(this was pointed out to me not long ago as they changed the wording for the lance in the update,insert evil laugh,,,on rode the 600)

Also with anything else with guard,multiples are the key,you can not expect a sole unit to win the day, Your entire army has to work together. If someones shooting at my RR's that leaves my other units free,,ect,

As to running them as mobile special weapons teams,,,
with flamers it gives you about a 16" range when combined with the template,cook things to soften them up then charge,
With meltas you get a 24" range
With plasma you get a 36" range
but all those are only two weapons per squadron.

The change from AP 2 to AP3 does remove my favorite targets from the rough rider squad I have to admit, as most of the marine units (3+ armor) have enough over-watching bolters to make a mess of my rough riders.
This has prompted me to run them as a counter charge (a marine unit already in combat) or in two squads to guarantee one squad makes it in on the charge. at 55 pts each, three units of 5 bare bones rough riders is not a huge point sink and can really ruin the day of infantry heavy MEQ (death company marines currently being my favorite target)

But back on point, at 75 points i do feel that they are wasted as mobile melta guns unless supported by officers in chimeras for bring it downs. As such my first attempt at the multiple small melta units proved rather effective, skirting behind the chimera wall for protection then racing a head to pop opposing transports, allowing the armored plasma vet squads to mow down the inhabitants.

This is likely a one trick pony, however I plan to try it out a few more times and see how it plays out. (it is important to note that i have no flyers in my army so the FA slot is not booked with vendettas/Valkyries)

I would definetly ask that the you post up your results,

I currently have a fully kitted out rough rider squad with Kamir, and 2 meltas, I aim to use them as countercharge units that have deepstriked within movement range. If they survive that intial charge and combat, then they can be a useful unit for harrassing and distracting my opponents attention on somethign more important.

It's a one trick pony for sure but I love them, Cavalry charges just look cool

I'm with Wolf, post your results. I've been on the edge about making my own RR's from some random cavalry units, but I've been iffy of their viability. Even getting overwatched, an AP3 charge of a full unit would be devastating.

Do you guys run the GW models by the way? I think they look silly, so I've been trying to come up with alternates.

Do you think mounted cavalry getting a +1 to Armour, as it does in WHFB, would be reasonable in 40k? So Rough Riders in Flak Armour would then have a 4+ save and be much more survivable. It may need a point increase or something possibly, but would they become a more usable option?

What other units in 40k would get the benefit of this? Seekers of Slaanesh, Bloodcrushers? Going from nil to 6+ or 6+ to 5+ I believe? Bikers already get their +1 T, so it wouldn't need to apply to them.

I think that would fit into the rules pretty well actually.

Sorry, but if you aren't giving them their lances, why bother?
I truly feel it's a waste to give them anything other than the HL.

I use perry brothers heavy french cav for my rough riders.

Deleted

Also, I'd note that for the price of two 5-rider squads with meltaguns, you could get a squad of melta mechvets. Both put down 2 meltagun hits per round of shooting, and both have 10 T3 Sv5+ models.

... and then with the mechvets you get a chimera. And they score.

But rough riders with meltaguns gives you the opportunity to go hunting both transports and their contents. The follow up charge into the disembarking troops is a handy one.

But you could shoot the transport open with meltaguns and then have the chimera heavy flamer the contents as well.

 Ailaros wrote:
But you could shoot the transport open with meltaguns and then have the chimera heavy flamer the contents as well.

Is this using the heavy flamer that is useless and should never be taken?

Yes you could do that, but you'd have to get quite lucky in positioning to set up a decent number of hits on the disembarked squad, while RRs have a nice reliable long charge range and will put a lot of hits in to the target unit.

Yes, that one.

But let's be honest here, if you're blowing up a transport with rough riders and are close enough to charge (likely too, given that you're doing your most up-blowing from melta range), that means you're close enough to lose a couple of horsies to the ensuing vehicle explosion. And then you probably lose one from overwatch, meaning that that grand charge... well... isn't grand.

And, unlike dudes in a chimera, they can get wiped out by stray gunfire, and if they run, they are much more likely running off the table. And they don't score. And they don't get two free heavy weapons. I mean, you're killing as many marines with a pair of heavy bolters shooting for two turns as two surviving huning lances get on the charge.

If you can successfully hide them, I can see them as a decent countercharge unit. Not the best of such units that the guard has to offer, but I can sort of see a role for them there. Otherwise, they're just outshone by other options in so many ways.

Ailaros, point-for-point what do you reckon are the better counter-chargers? (Serious question).

point for point? Well... probably nothing.

But with only Ap3, it's not comprehensively the best. For the price of 6 ultrafragile riders, you can get a much more durable ("hidable" in larger squads, and transportable) eviscerator priest. Yes, you get half the number of hits (thanks to rerolls), but they're Ap2, and come with armorbane and you're more likely to not have it killed first, and get an invul save.

And then you have the powerfist CCS. And Straken. And a powerfist lord commissar. And even Yarrick, honestly.

Just being cheap isn't, by itself, enough to make it good, especially when you can get so much effectiveness out of other stuff.

Snapshot wrote:
I'm interested in the effectiveness of a RR squad so ran some numbers. I've assumed a bare-bones 10-man squad, and then replaced the sgt with Mogul Kamir to see if he is worth it. The theoretical target is a 10-man squad of Space Marines who roll really badly in Overwatch.

Assume a perfect world where Overwatch fails (or they are already in combat)

Assume we can get the whole squad in base contact on the charge for 10x Hammer of Wrath attacks - Fleet helps here

10x Hammer of Wrath attacks:
Auto-hits = 10 hits
5+ to wound T4 = 3.33 wounds
3+ Sv = 1.11 unsaved wounds

First Charge round with Hunting Lances (31 attacks - 2 CCWs + Charge; sgt has base 2):
5+ to-hit vs WS4 = 10.33 hits[u]
3+ to-wound vs T4 = 6.9 wounds
no armour save = 6.9 unsaved wounds

Grand total unsaved wounds for a perfect charge = 8

WS3 vs WS4 you need 4+ to hit, not 5+. It is REALLY rare to need a 5+ to hit in assault. The opponent needs to be double your WS +1, or WS7 for guard.

Thx Cheesedoodler. That'll remind me not to rely on memory, but I'll probably forget that too.