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I will be doing a forge world order soon. I am wanting to get a avenger strike fighter or a vulture gunship with punisher cannons. I am mainly going to use it as air to ground. I'm interested in what you you all have to say about the two. Thanks

The vulture has vector dancer making it much easier to keep it on the board while zooming and to slot it into the rear arc of vehicles. I don't know that much about the avenger.

I'd go for the vulture too, I mean 20 twin linked shots but I also don't know much about the avenger

If you're going to buy one flyer, get a Vulture. The Avenger is better than the Vulture in some situations, but the punisher cannon (and you always take punisher cannons) Vulture is better overall against an unknown mix of targets (don't forget that vector dancer means you often get to shoot at rear AV 10 where you remove an average of 6 HP a turn). Unless you've already filled your fast attack slots with Vendettas the Vulture is the default choice, and the Avenger is a specialist that needs to have a clear purpose in mind before you buy it.

 Peregrine wrote:
If you're going to buy one flyer, get a Vulture. The Avenger is better than the Vulture in some situations, but the punisher cannon (and you always take punisher cannons) Vulture is better overall against an unknown mix of targets (don't forget that vector dancer means you often get to shoot at rear AV 10 where you remove an average of 6 HP a turn). Unless you've already filled your fast attack slots with Vendettas the Vulture is the default choice, and the Avenger is a specialist that needs to have a clear purpose in mind before you buy it.

Actually, I wanted to quote your "footnote" comment about Forge world being "nothing more than a house rule." That is something I have been curious about. For example, the massive new Space Marine tank (Horus Heresy era, I guess)--it's pretty hard core, and would change a game. So, Forge World products don't really fit into the actual 40k universe all of the time, yeah? I've never used any other than "counts as" models--for example, I have the new Apothecaries that I use as Sanguinary Priests for BA.

I am just curious about how to incorporate them into games, having never been to a tournament and only ever played "house" games, I guess.

The Horus Heresy line is distinct from the rest of Forgeworld's offerings in that they are not desugbed for use with the standard 40k codices. The Horus Heresy conflict happens in an entirely different era, with different participants and generally at a different scale. They still use the standard 40k rulebook, but the intention is that you'll be using armies built from the lists in the Horus Heresy line, rather than Codices or IA volumes. I believe this is even addressed in their first book's FAQ.

This is in distinct contrast to the rest of the Forgeworld line, which are specifically sanctioned for use with the standard 40k rulebook and associated codices. Like anything else in 40k, it ultimately comes down to what you negotiate with your opponent, or the terms to which you've agreed in entering a tournament. But Forgeworld is intended to be an element of standard play, while the Horus Heresy is not.

pantheralegionnaire wrote:
For example, the massive new Space Marine tank (Horus Heresy era, I guess)--it's pretty hard core, and would change a game.

All FW units are official, but not all FW units are included in army lists outside of Apocalypse. Superheavy tanks like the marine tank you're thinking of (Fellblade maybe?) are only available in large games where Apocalypse-scale units in general are allowed. Units like the Vulture and Avenger are just standard normal-scale choices and balanced appropriately. Choosing a Vulture for one of your IG fast attack choices is no different than choosing between a Hellhound or a Vendetta.

I'm a huge fan of the Avenger. Give it some hellfury missiles and you're good to go. It can handle almost any target with lascannons, missiles, and the avenger bolt cannon. Dunno why they put the heavy stubber on it...

UnadoptedPuppy wrote:
Dunno why they put the heavy stubber on it...

Because it looks cool on the model, and people would wonder what's wrong with the rules if it had a weapon that you couldn't shoot. It's never going to kill anything.

 Peregrine wrote:

UnadoptedPuppy wrote:
Dunno why they put the heavy stubber on it...

Because it looks cool on the model, and people would wonder what's wrong with the rules if it had a weapon that you couldn't shoot. It's never going to kill anything.

It is, however, useful-- at least now that Weapon Destroyed results are randomized.

What's the difference between a Vendetta and a Valkyrie? Are they just variations of the same kit, like a Land Raider Crusader or Redeemer? Or do you have to buy a Forge World upgrade to make one?

Same goes for the "Griffon"--only a Forge World upgrade, but playable with the 40k codex for IG?

pantheralegionnaire wrote:
What's the difference between a Vendetta and a Valkyrie? Are they just variations of the same kit, like a Land Raider Crusader or Redeemer? Or do you have to buy a Forge World upgrade to make one?

The Vendetta is a Valkyrie with 3x twin-linked lascannons. The Valkyrie kit doesn't include it, so you have to either buy the FW conversion kit (which is just the guns to glue onto your Valkyrie) or build some guns yourself. The rules for the Vendetta are in the IG codex.

Same goes for the "Griffon"--only a Forge World upgrade, but playable with the 40k codex for IG?

Exactly. GW used to make a Griffon model, but it's OOP. The only current choices are to use the FW kit or to build your own.

Another pro for the Vulture is 3Hp to the Avengers 2Hp. Really though they are designed to do two different things. Vulture is a horde hunter and will glance things to death with the punisher (and if you are not taking the punisher cannons you are doing it wrong.) Avenger is a little more of a tank hunter with the option to go after troops as well thanks to its AP3 cannon. So look at what you are already fielding and go from there on which would work best for you.

Or do what I did and get both.

 Panzer1944 wrote:
Avenger is a little more of a tank hunter with the option to go after troops as well thanks to its AP3 cannon.

The problem here is that the Vulture is actually really good at both of those things. Against tanks it has vector dancer to make it really easy to get into rear armor where you're almost guaranteed to kill anything with AV 10 on the back, so the Avenger only wins against the few vehicles with better than AV 10 rear armor, or if the tank's position on the table manages to restrict you to front/side armor. Meanwhile against MEQs the Vulture's sheer volume of fire means that it kills almost as many marines as the Avenger's AP 2/3 weapons. The Avenger does have some advantages, but you really have to look for them.

By the way, if you love your nephilim model but don't know what to do with it because it sadly sucks as of now ...
You can glue two lascannons where the HBolters are and call it an Avenger, works wonders (I glued "long" lascannons and not the shortened ones from the Nephilim kit, looks like 37mm AT guns from old tank hunters)

 Peregrine wrote:

 Panzer1944 wrote:
Avenger is a little more of a tank hunter with the option to go after troops as well thanks to its AP3 cannon.

The problem here is that the Vulture is actually really good at both of those things. Against tanks it has vector dancer to make it really easy to get into rear armor where you're almost guaranteed to kill anything with AV 10 on the back, so the Avenger only wins against the few vehicles with better than AV 10 rear armor, or if the tank's position on the table manages to restrict you to front/side armor. Meanwhile against MEQs the Vulture's sheer volume of fire means that it kills almost as many marines as the Avenger's AP 2/3 weapons. The Avenger does have some advantages, but you really have to look for them.

True enough. I feel the Avenger is stronger of the two the earlier in the game it is. If I had a choice of which one I would want coming in against even a decent mech list turn 2 I want the Avenger in first since I could still take out vehicles even through the front armor even more so if you add a pair of missile launchers. As the game goes on though the Vulture will win hands down thank to its sheer amount of shooting and vector dance will keep it on the table.