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Hey guys, I've been working on my BA army, and I've been thinking of space wolves as allies for them. The plan is to have the blood angels as the quick jabs, and then the space wolves as the knockout swing. I was wondering if this is a good idea because I plan on doing this with a small loganwing unit. The list itself would be a core of assault marines with preists, a stormraven, and 2 vindicators, then the space wolves would be Logan, and 5 WG termies in LRC. Blood angels go in fast and land raider follows up to drop termies in peoples faces. This would be used most likely at around 2.5k to 3k points. What do you guys think of it?

Thanks, Pheonix Lord Asurmen

I think you're really short on models. Additionally, if you're taking SW allies, I cannot fathom why you wouldn't include some ML Long Fangs as well. Additionally, if this is your plan, I'm not sure why you wouldn't incorporate some drop pods as well; because if you aren't causing some mayhem right in your opponent's face early on, I think you're going to find that your Vindicators will get wrecked before they have a chance to do anything. You're also going to need an alpha strike option to kill the ubiquitous Quad Gun, or else your SR will just be a waste of points.

If you're taking SW allies you should consider Grey Hunters in drop pods. SW troops are perhaps the best troop choices in the game and can feally add some back bone to BA. For a hq, maybe jump a rune priest with a jumpback and join him to an assault squad unit for divination buffs.

D

Yeah, I agree about the drop pods--dropping in a Frag-nought will help you deal with that Quad gun or even walkers or light vehicles (3x hitting automatically can do some damage). Additionally, the SW troops choices are strong, and their "Split Fire" ability for Devastators might make taking them as an Allied Heavy choice an even better choice for you than one of the tanks.

That said, I think your Fast Vindicators are going to do some damage, but plonking down a couple of Drop pods to block line of sight would definitely help.

Furthermore, I have really struggled with Assault marines lately, so I might add in a Scout squad to hold a back-line objective too.

I don't know what your list looks like exactly, but fast vindicators and fast predators are better than the long fangs.

I don't know how much of 40K you've played, but your "BA go in fast" plan is likely to result in "BA die fast before the SW get where they're going". Also consider that the Stormraven futher piecemeals your force.

However, using drop pods to put grey hunters in people's faces does get the SW there in time.

Personally, I would never use Wolfguard terminators with BA because you are making a low model count situation even worse. BA want cheaper allies, not expensive ones.

Are the units much cheaper for Space Wolves? Because that would be the only real reason for that list (and maybe Logan, I know nothing of this guy)

With only Blood Angels you could fill LR with 5 Assault Terminators and Deep Strike with it.

But again, I know pretty much nothing about SW

I wouldn't have allied SW because the BA are kinda expensive and not really but you dont want SW blood angels have everyhting they need except ap2 glaive encarmines

Like my friend soomemafia capitalize on there easy land raider list it was a gift from Matt Ward use it well and beat the living crap out of every one with a 3 land raider list with death company and drop pods full of furioso libbies and well all that fun stuff

Actually the BA are missing a lot. Like efficient HTH options and good HQ choices. In fact, the only thing I'd say the BA have over the SW is fast vehicles. I don't even count the Stormraven as a plus, because for every time it saves me from hellturkeys, it makes me cry vs Vendettas.

Furioso libbies are terrible. Look at their cost and look at what they actually do. Stop giving dubious BA advice.

Oh, and since when hasn't Sanguinary Guard been CC-specialist? Antificer armour & Glaive Encarmines are nasty thing.

And DC, no matter what yoy say, play them correctly and you'll get the assault bonus, I've done it in almost every game.

And furiosos DN.

All of these three, I've seen wiping out entire squads of 20-30 orks, even more tyranids. Alone. Now how many 200pts squad can do the same? Not too many, so don't come here and say that BA doesn't have HtH options...

 soomemafia wrote:

And DC, no matter what yoy say, play them correctly and you'll get the assault bonus, I've done it in almost every game.

Then your opponents are terrible

All of these three, I've seen wiping out entire squads of 20-30 orks, even more tyranids. Alone.

It's highly mathematically unlikely that you'd wipe out 30 orks with 200pts of any of those options you listed. What happened there is; you got lucky.

don't come here and say that BA doesn't have HtH options...

He didn't, he said efficient assault options.

I'll jump in again, as the debate is getting lively. Let's attend to another issue here, which I am still curious about: Deep Striking in Land Raiders.

Soomemafia has it as his "footnote" reason for playing BA, but I've read people's comments advising others never to attempt it. Martel, anyone want to jump in here and discuss the relative merits of doing this (or reasons not to)?

This doesn't really have anything to do with Space Wolves as allies, but I'd love a clarification.

That said, it seems to me that it would be another "points sink," in a force already short of models. I'm planning to use some IG as allies for my BA force.

There is no reason to do it. You have a massively high chance to mishap, and all you gain is stopping your landraider being on the table turn 1.
The risk:reward is awful. The risks are massively high, and rewards are negligible. You're better off getting 2 squads of hammernaters and deep striking them both, or just driving your land raider as fast as possible from turn 1.

 Griddlelol wrote:

Then your opponents are terrible

What makes you people expect that the enemy always gets to assault, or he is an idiot? There was no magic trick there, I played smart and suprised him when he was locked in combat with another unit. After that my 5-man squad of DC (with chaplain, so it is more than 200 after all, my bad) took down 13 orks and the rest died in sweeping advance. I agree, it was a little lucky but admit it, the whole game is after all determined by luck, no matter your list.

And don't get me started with Furioso. If you know anything about this lovely little fellow, you know it's possible

 Griddlelol wrote:
He didn't, he said efficient assault options.

Well my bad, but the point is still same. They do.


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@pantheralegionnaire:
I don't even use it so often, but in some games I do. Because there's nothing funnier than dropping the toughest tank in game in front of some IG. Then load your troops out (only if they are troops mostly meant for shooting, they can't assault yet) and fire all weapons of the squad & tank.

Just don't drop it in front of melta-weapon or lascannon (unless you are 100% sure you can take it out in first turn. If you are, and there are no more such weapons in his army, that is propably the best tactic you can get.)

The blender Furioso still is far inferior to the fragnought I think. Getting the blood talon version into HTH can be quite a trick. Orks aren't a good measuring stick, since they have problems with AV 13 and AV 14.

Neither the DC nor the sanguinary guard are point efficient, making them bad choices in a TAC list.

Deep striking a Land Raider makes no sense at all. You have to reserve it and have a locator beacon in play to drop it safely. You could, instead, move it 18" on turn 1 and then charge 6+6+2D6 on turn 2. Under what circumstance is that not far enough?

Look, people need to undertand that the BA codex is full of gimmicks that are total crap versus codices that mean business. If you haven't ran into these lists, you won't understand what I mean until you've played in games where you get 0 VPs because your codex is overcharging for everything and your opponent knows how to exploit this.

"And DC, no matter what yoy say, play them correctly and you'll get the assault bonus, I've done it in almost every game"

Against good players, you'll get spoiling attacked, shot down in transit, or you'll get one assault off against a sacrificial unit and then vaporized. I know its a mirror match, but I've never lost to a BA player fielding DC in 6th edition.

Okay, I agree most of the things Martel is saying. I still think that you judge DC too harshly. They are like eldars. In hands of an amateur, they are useless baitmeat, but if you master them, there are only few units more useful. And yes, deep striking Land Raider only have some sense in big fields.

There is no mastering the DC. For the DC to be good, you have to rely on your opponents to cooperate. That's a poor thing to count on.

One of three things is usually the case:

A) Jump Pack DC: so expensive per model that shooting resources can easily be found to allocate to stopping them.

B) LR DC: most problematic to deal with, but pretty much the same thing as assault termies that are more vulnerable to counter assaults. Plus you are paying death star prices for a non-death star unit

C) Drop pod DC: most popular, but still have little impact when they drop and are subject to focus fire and spoiling assault that turn. And they are on foot. Yuck.

soomemafia wrote:
I played smart and surprised him when he was locked in combat with another unit.

Surprised him? With DC charging? That's not a surpirse, that's an oversight on your opponent's part. As soon as the DC were in assault range, he should have manoeuvred to enter assault with them. If he's tied up in assault, then practically anything would have done the same job. It also shows that it took until T3 for the 200pts of DC to even make an impact.

And don't get me started with Furioso. If you know anything about this lovely little fellow, you know it's possible

The issue is here, is that any opponent other than orks will have adequate AV:13 defence. It won't make an impact until it assaults whereas the fragnaught will.

Martel732 wrote:There is no mastering the DC. For the DC to be good, you have to rely on your opponents to cooperate. That's a poor thing to count on.

This. The only times I've let DC charge me is a) they bail out a land raider or b) when I put a throw away unit in their way. Spending 200pts to kill my 60pt unit? Spending 450pts to kill my 115pt unit? I know who's winning.

"It also shows that it took until T3 for the 200pts of DC to even make an impact."

I've had BA lists crippled by turn 2. Both giving and receiving. So many BA players pretend they can ignore the shooting phase. Big mistake.

Blender dreads, averaged across all match ups, have a horrible tendency to take melta to the face. At least the fragnought has a decent chance of killing one squad's melta capability with clever firing tricks.

 Griddlelol wrote:

This. The only times I've let DC charge me is a) they bail out a land raider or b) when I put a throw away unit in their way. Spending 200pts to kill my 60pt unit? Spending 450pts to kill my 115pt unit? I know who's winning.

Well then you were playing against a lousy player...
It's not the units fault if player wastes them.


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I admit it, skillful player recognizes the threat and is able to assault them first. But also can skillful BA-player spoil their assault and use the opportunity.

I really don't see why you hate DC just because you have played against some guy who just runs them mindlessly towards the enemy...

In my opinion (with no offence intended) any player who uses DC is a lousy player.
With premeasuring it's so incredibly easy to know what turn they can assault and therefore what turn you can assault them and thus negate all their benefits.
Their one sole use is assault, I hardly have to out-think my opponent, if you're not charging with them, tacticals or assault marines are better.

 soomemafia wrote:

 Griddlelol wrote:

This. The only times I've let DC charge me is a) they bail out a land raider or b) when I put a throw away unit in their way. Spending 200pts to kill my 60pt unit? Spending 450pts to kill my 115pt unit? I know who's winning.

Well then you were playing against a lousy player...
It's not the units fault if player wastes them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I admit it, skillful player recognizes the threat and is able to assault them first. But also can skillful BA-player spoil their assault and use the opportunity.

I really don't see why you hate DC just because you have played against some guy who just runs them mindlessly towards the enemy...

I hate DC because they don't have truly effective delivery methods. Their big trick only functions on the assault phase. They are pedestrian if assaulted or counter assaulted. They also never score, but come out of troops and so are really stealth elites. There are BA elites I think are just flat out better buys.

"Well then you were playing against a lousy player...
It's not the units fault if player wastes them."

You don't get to chose which unit you assault. I make that choice for you. Like so many BA players, you seem to forget that your opponent gets a turn too. The DC must assault the first target of opportunity, because trying to be cute and choosy means another turn of sucking down fire.

"But also can skillful BA-player spoil their assault and use the opportunity. "

No, they can't, because BA are constantly outnumbered. BA run out of bodies to run interference quickly.

The long and short of it is that using BA CC specialist units are a good way to get massacred against opponents who know what they are doing. If you don't believe me, come take on my BA hybrid mech list. This is not even remotely the scariest list you could face, but still, you only assault the units I want you to, and I'm driving away from you shooting the whole time. Obviously, lists that shoot back hurt me, but BA CC specialists don't shoot worth a darn in general.

"I really don't see why you hate DC just because you have played against some guy who just runs them mindlessly towards the enemy..."

I have faced DC in all deployment options I have listed. I have yet to lose to a list using DC. It's not just some random goober I'm beating. DC have deployment problems and functional problems.

Going back to the "Drop Pod for DC" delivery method: from what I have been reading (mostly from you guys, so this is kind-of a loaded question), the way you do this is to give the DC bolters. Then their rage and extra attacks make them still sort-of decent at CC, and they can have some Melta/Powerfist/something useful equipment, right? But my question is: Isn't Sternguard in a Drop pod better to fill this role? Better shooting, potential for the Combi-meltas and so on, and still have 2 attacks on their profile, so will do decently well if assaulted. Right?

I modelled all my Death Company with Jump Packs, and took hours and hours to paint them, and I have only seen them get vaporized at long range at 35 points a pop. Sucks. I've never even gotten a kill with my Death Company Blendernought yet--it gets vaporized every time before it can cross the field. And everything I hear about putting these dudes in a Storm Raven and dropping them down on top of fools (which was my initial plan--super awesome in concept--a 2 ton psychotic death robot falling from the sky on top of you, blades whirring hungrily) indicates that the opponent will shoot down my flyer when it arrives and I will lost them all in a fireball.

So...yeah, I am struggling to use Death Company.

Yeah, DC is difficult when your enemy realizes to consentrate on them.
And veterans are useful, but not quite the same.
For 2 reasons: 1) DC has relentless so they can rapidfire and assault.
2) with Chaplain (only when assaulting) DC gets to re-roll all hits and wounds.

And @martel:
We're stuck in a situation where both of us think that the other one is playing against idiots.
And I believe that neither of us is going to change their opinion, no matter what we say.
So let's just do a favor for the rest of dakkadakka, and stop arguing about this. K?

 soomemafia wrote:

We're stuck in a situation where both of us think that the other one is playing against idiots.

Why not just forget this part and continue with the discussion? If no one assumes the other is playing morons, then it's probably better anyway.

I'm struggling to think of a useful tactic for DC that doesn't involve charging into assault ASAP. Their points cost requires you get them in assault and you initiated it. How do you use them if it's not getting into assault quickly (note:this doesn't mean footslogging across a table with no care to coversaves, I'm talking about whatever method you use)?

well, that's difficult. Since CC is only reason to field them (unless you want a 300-point bait). But I have also used a boltersquad of five guys in a razorback (without chaplain to keep them cheap). Moved them across the field and while blocking LoS to other enemy squads with razorback, and shooting the hell out of enemy on an objective. Then assaulted next turn if possible.

 Griddlelol wrote:

 soomemafia wrote:

We're stuck in a situation where both of us think that the other one is playing against idiots.

Why not just forget this part and continue with the discussion? If no one assumes the other is playing morons, then it's probably better anyway.

I'm struggling to think of a useful tactic for DC that doesn't involve charging into assault ASAP. Their points cost requires you get them in assault and you initiated it. How do you use them if it's not getting into assault quickly (note:this doesn't mean footslogging across a table with no care to coversaves, I'm talking about whatever method you use)?

Yeah, guys, I'm enjoying the discussion for sure, and I don't really think people are trying to put one another down. Soome is coming from Finland, after all, and I'm in Indonesia and Martel is in the U.S. so I think it's pretty cool that we're all talking about this. It's going to vary depending on who we play in our local shops, too, and I certainly don't consider myself very good at this yet. I appreciate all your perspectives and observations, and love the discussion. So, "Assume good intentions" is probably a good way to discuss stuff. We're all just trying to get better, really, or to help others do the same.

I could totally see Death Company (in terms of Fluff as well as functionally) being a distraction, attracting the opponent's attention as I move other stuff across the board, or shoot him or whatever, if they weren't so expensive (in game terms)! I mean, seriously, the Jump Pack guys are 35 points apiece! That's a tough "suicide" unit to throw away. And I roll so badly that cover saves are probably not going to get me there. And instant death prevents my FNP from helping much...

All I can say is I am not very good at using DC right now.


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 soomemafia wrote:
well, that's difficult. Since CC is only reason to field them (unless you want a 300-point bait). But I have also used a boltersquad of five guys in a razorback (without chaplain to keep them cheap). Moved them across the field and while blocking LoS to other enemy squads with razorback, and shooting the hell out of enemy on an objective. Then assaulted next turn if possible.

How good are 5 of them at causing damage by themselves? Four attacks each (if they get the charge) or maybe even Five, with +1 Str. That's a lot of attacks, if they get there. That's the frustrating thing to me--they SOUND so cool. If I could just GET them there, it would be awesome.

I actually think I am going to have to try the Stormraven delivery method--have 6 of them with Jump Packs in there, and jump down and try to assault something. Maybe my DC Dreadnought too. I may lose (again) but I think I have to try it! Running them across the field in this 6th ed. shooty game is not working for me. If I can figure out how to do ANYTHING else of value while the enemy is shooting at them, maybe it'll be a noble death that's worth something in strategic terms.

You get 8 bolter shots and twin-linked heavy bolter. They'll fire few guys down at least. And by adding TH or PF you get some AT-capacity and couple of almost ensured kills in CC. Don't forget that WS5. Giving them edge against normal marines and other basic soldiers.

My opponents aren't morons They just can't overcome the maths of DC.

DCs don't need chaplains. Whatever they charge is in deep trouble. That's not in dispute. It's the overall costs of getting that charge off that I'm talking about.

The other problem is that BA ASMs are kind of anemic in HTH now, so meq opponents that take out the DC have removed by far the biggest CC threat. Oh, they just happen to be more expensive, too, especially after you give them a few toys. DC are very efficient targets for shooting attacks and by far the best choice to take out at a range. Because the ASMs just aren't a priority anymore for many lists.

I have always gotten good mileage out of my drop pod DC with bolters and one fist. HOWEVER, Martel's rhetoric on switching them out for drop pod Sternguard has me convinced to at least try it for a while. Previously I was using my DC as drop pod bolter death, I would primarily use them as bolter fire base and as an area denial unit. If i got to assault with them it was a bonus. a DW guy charged them once with 5 TH/SS termies and the temies got rocked, 10 DC with a hidden fist is nice (hidden because it cant be singled out in a challenge and has enough bodies to take a turn of wounds allowing the fist to strike back).They did work well, but maybe 2 outta 5 games my points could be better spent.

Sternguard while probably just as expensive as DC once they are kitted out with the tools they need to get the job done will (IMO) be more effective than DC.