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Okay, so I understand Coteaz's unit can make as many shooting attacks as units that fall into the 12 inch bubble.
I had this scenario come up today, The Doom of Malatai drops in a spore. The Tyranid player then uses the spore to block LOS to the doom. Both are easily inside the 12 inch bubble.

We ended up deciding the purifiers and Coteaz could fire at the spore, and then fire at the doom only if they could draw LOS to the doom by killing the spore.

Did we handle it correctly? It ended up having a large effect on the course of the game.
I would mention, I don't play GK.

It's units that fall into the 12" bubble and he has LoS to.
Since he didn't have LoS when the unit (DoM) arrived, he can't shoot it.

If the pod dies however, he then has LOS to fire with, does it count as all shots firing at the same time, or are they sequential?

Well it's a debatable one, but I would liken it to long fangs perhaps, you don't shoot the two lascanons at a tank and THEN shoot the two Hvy bltrs at he unit that was hiding behind it... Think of all his shots happening in a 'phase'.. But then again some would argue 'if at the beginning his Los is blocked then no' whereas 'if at any time during the shooting phase they HAVE Los at the beginning on that units turn to shoot (like one squad kills tank, next squad shoots separately to shoot at squad behind)... I would still go with blocked Los at beginning of THAT units current 'phase' though.. My 2c

 iGuy91 wrote:
If the pod dies however, he then has LOS to fire with, does it count as all shots firing at the same time, or are they sequential?

Did the enemy arrive within 12" and in Line of Sight?
Or did you have to kill something to get Line of Sight?

The first one means you can fire.
The second means you can't.

IBEY says you can "immediately make an out-of-sequence shooting attack" against an enemy unit that has arrived from reserve.

So the question becomes: did the Spore arrive first, and then the Doom deploy out of it? Or did the Spore and the Doom arrive at the same time?

If the former is the case, then yes, you may shoot the Spore first, and if it dies shoot the Doom. If the latter, then no, you may only shoot the Spore.

Eric - you're making a distinction that is both irrelevant and unsupported by rules.

The pod arrives and then the unit deploys - exactly like a SM Drop Pod. Which means that the unit and pod arrive at the same time (ie, you can't shoot the pod with the unit still embarked).

Since they arrive at the same time and Coteaz only has LoS to the pod, he can only make his attack against the pod.

rigeld2 wrote:
Eric - you're making a distinction that is both irrelevant and unsupported by rules.

I made no distinction at all. Read what I wrote: I summarised two potential options (based on the OP), and sided with neither of them. I left others to pull rules to make that decision, trusting that someone like yourself would do so. My summary was hardly irrelevant, since it directly addressed the issue the OP was having. One of the options is unsupported by the rules, but recall that I gave TWO options, not one.

Edit: Also, my name isn't Eric. That's the name of a dead parrot.

Hrm, seems the consensus is that he would only get the shots against the spore.
I guess I will pass that along

rigeld2 wrote:
Eric - you're making a distinction that is both irrelevant and unsupported by rules.

The pod arrives and then the unit deploys - exactly like a SM Drop Pod. Which means that the unit and pod arrive at the same time (ie, you can't shoot the pod with the unit still embarked).

Since they arrive at the same time and Coteaz only has LoS to the pod, he can only make his attack against the pod.

Pg 36 seems to disagree with this though. In the Movement phase during which they arrive, deep striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a deep striking Transport vehicle if they are in one.

After start of the turn sequence, the unit will disembark from the Transport during the normal movement phase.

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Eric - you're making a distinction that is both irrelevant and unsupported by rules.

The pod arrives and then the unit deploys - exactly like a SM Drop Pod. Which means that the unit and pod arrive at the same time (ie, you can't shoot the pod with the unit still embarked).

Since they arrive at the same time and Coteaz only has LoS to the pod, he can only make his attack against the pod.

Pg 36 seems to disagree with this though. In the Movement phase during which they arrive, deep striking units may not move any further, other than to disembark from a deep striking Transport vehicle if they are in one.

After start of the turn sequence, the unit will disembark from the Transport during the normal movement phase.

Those rules cover general deep striking transports (land raiders, flyers, etc).

The Drop Pod and Mycetic Spore rules are more specific and therefore relevant.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Eric - you're making a distinction that is both irrelevant and unsupported by rules.

I made no distinction at all. Read what I wrote: I summarised two potential options (based on the OP), and sided with neither of them. I left others to pull rules to make that decision, trusting that someone like yourself would do so. My summary was hardly irrelevant, since it directly addressed the issue the OP was having. One of the options is unsupported by the rules, but recall that I gave TWO options, not one.

Edit: Also, my name isn't Eric. That's the name of a dead parrot.

Sorry, I misread your post.

And your name. Eek.

rigeld2 wrote:
Eric - you're making a distinction that is both irrelevant and unsupported by rules.

The pod arrives and then the unit deploys - exactly like a SM Drop Pod. Which means that the unit and pod arrive at the same time (ie, you can't shoot the pod with the unit still embarked).

Since they arrive at the same time and Coteaz only has LoS to the pod, he can only make his attack against the pod.

This is correct. Attach Coteaz to a Purgation Squad (Astral Aim) and avoid this problem.

Except they can't use Astral Aim during the opponent's movement phase. IBEY allows an out of sequence shooting attack, not a psychic power plus shooting attack.

rigeld2 wrote:
Except they can't use Astral Aim during the opponent's movement phase. IBEY allows an out of sequence shooting attack, not a psychic power plus shooting attack.

This is true. You can't cast powers on your opponent's turn (unless the power gives you specific permission to do so).

However, do people think Astral Aim lasts through the opponent's turn? BRB says that Blessings do. Astral Aim is not a blessing (as the GK codex was written for 5th), but it does act as a blessing, and it does not specify when it ends. How long did psychic powers last in 5th? (I don't remember.)

Astral Aim is not a blessing and only lasts as long as the power specifically states it lasts.

As for the drop pod or spore debate. If the spore, like the drop pod, states its passengers must immediately disembark when it arrives from reserves then this disembark is happening at the exact same time as the corteaz shooting. When two things happen at the same time like this the controlling player gets to set the order.

That player may choose to allow the shots BEFORE his unit disembarks. If the transport is destroyed by these shots the unit will still be inside. The rules for this type of situation are presented in the transport section of the BRB. The models that survive will have disembarked. That player will likely choose to allow the shots AFTER his unit disembarks. When the unit disembarks, either because the transport died, or because they walked off, they will also trigger shots from Coteaz and his unit. At this time you need to draw line of sight. It will be possible that the unit walked off behind its transport preventing LoS, its also possible they are partly exposed in some way. Even if they have a dead transport it may only have been wrecked and could still block LoS.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
Astral Aim is not a blessing (as the GK codex was written for 5th)...and it does not specify when it ends.

 DJGietzen wrote:
Astral Aim is not a blessing and only lasts as long as the power specifically states it lasts.

Yes, that was already covered. A problem arises when the power does not state when it ends. Does anyone have a good argument for when this power ends?

Wouldn't we have to know what type of power it is to answer that? W/O a FAQ I think we can't really answer that. Astral Aim does seem like a blessing or buff to me.

I think that first you shoot at the spore and then you shoot at it's content IF you can draw line of sight to it when it disembarks. Only way he can avoid it is by disembarking outside the 12" zone of Coteaz IBEY, or by having LOS blocked by the spore.

 Mythra wrote:
Wouldn't we have to know what type of power it is to answer that? W/O a FAQ I think we can't really answer that. Astral Aim does seem like a blessing or buff to me.

It is an unlisted type of power.

The power does not say what it is.

Just like almost all of the other powers in the GK Codex.

 DJGietzen wrote:

As for the drop pod or spore debate. If the spore, like the drop pod, states its passengers must immediately disembark when it arrives from reserves then this disembark is happening at the exact same time as the corteaz shooting. When two things happen at the same time like this the controlling player gets to set the order.

While this would normally be true, this entire issue has been FAQed.

FAQ wrote:
Q: Does a squad disembarking from a drop pod, or mycetic spore, count as arriving from reserve for Inquisitor Coteaz's I've been Expecting You fired? (pg 44)
A: Yes. This means that Inquisitor Coteaz and his unit will be able to fire once at each unit.

Since both drop pods and mycetic spores would need to "open" for the occupants to disembark, I'd say that you can't really block LoS with them. Cover save, sure. But just because someone models their drop pod or whatever not to have open doors doesn't mean the doors aren't opened when it lands. Doing so would be widely considered modeling for advantage, as discussed previously in another thread. And the distinct lack of an official model for the mycetic spore would further support this, in my opinion.

The FAQ says you can shoot at them, so as far as the FAQ is concerned, neither a mycetic spore, or drop pod should be considered to block LoS.

Nothing in the FAQ states that a Mycetic Spore doesn't block LOS. So by default, LOS to the target will be required at the time the shot is taken.

I've never seen a Mycetic Spore model that has a see-through structure like a drop pod.

 Mannahnin wrote:
Nothing in the FAQ states that a Mycetic Spore doesn't block LOS. So by default, LOS to the target will be required at the time the shot is taken.

this is correct.

As with any model if it blocks Line of Sight, then it blocks Line of Sight.

I've never seen a Mycetic Spore model that has a see-through structure like a drop pod.

Well there is not a GW model for the Spore, so there could be one similar to a drop pod, or one made from a drop pod, but with copious amounts of greenstuff for the organic bitz.

It says you can shoot them but it doesn't mention not needing line of sight. I think you would still need to see the doom to shoot him. The power itself does mention you do need LoS.

Drop pods and spore pods don't technically need to open for a disembark. Whether the doors on a pod are open or closed you drawn LoS from the hull. (Doors are really fluff.) If they did open the doors then you could use true LoS to shoot a unit behind it tho right?

 Mannahnin wrote:
Nothing in the FAQ states that a Mycetic Spore doesn't block LOS. So by default, LOS to the target will be required at the time the shot is taken.

I've never seen a Mycetic Spore model that has a see-through structure like a drop pod.

While you might not have seen them, logic dictates that they would need to open somehow in order for units inside to exit. And upon opening, as with drop pods, they would have sections you could see through.

I suppose I'd be willing to go either way on it for the spores, so long as it was clear beforehand. But you'd definitely have LoS through drop pods, as in the way they work, all of the doors burst open upon landing.

I think logically, the best way to handle it would be to say they give a cover save, but don't block LoS. Because they really do have to open to let the contents out. Otherwise, since everyone gets to basically design the dimensions and look of their spores completely on their own, they could always design spores to dimensions and specifications that are advantageous to the specific unit they plan on deploying with it.

I could have 1 type of spore, modelled 1 way for my ranged nids, and another, designed a different way for my CC critters.

You could only open doors on the side you get out of.

 Mythra wrote:
You could only open doors on the side you get out of.

That's not how drop pods work 40k universe. All the doors burst open, and the marines pour out.

That argument was posited in another thread, and the consensus was that doing so would be considered modeling for advantage, if I recall correctly. Either way, let's not get too far off topic. I think the primary question has been answered here. Whether or not drop pods and spores should block LoS should be it's own thread, if you'd like to continue discussing it, and get a broader community view on the topic.

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:
Nothing in the FAQ states that a Mycetic Spore doesn't block LOS. So by default, LOS to the target will be required at the time the shot is taken.

I've never seen a Mycetic Spore model that has a see-through structure like a drop pod.

While you might not have seen them, logic dictates that they would need to open somehow in order for units inside to exit. And upon opening, as with drop pods, they would have sections you could see through.

A spore might only open in one area, one side, whatever. There's no reason to assume that it must pop open like a flower or drop pod.

I suppose I'd be willing to go either way on it for the spores, so long as it was clear beforehand. But you'd definitely have LoS through drop pods, as in the way they work, all of the doors burst open upon landing.

Unless LoS is blocked by one of the supports, sure.

I think logically, the best way to handle it would be to say they give a cover save, but don't block LoS. Because they really do have to open to let the contents out. Otherwise, since everyone gets to basically design the dimensions and look of their spores completely on their own, they could always design spores to dimensions and specifications that are advantageous to the specific unit they plan on deploying with it.

I could have 1 type of spore, modelled 1 way for my ranged nids, and another, designed a different way for my CC critters.

Yes, absolutely true. And for an organic race that evolves differently based on need how does that not make sense?

If the Doom can't draw LOS to the Grey Knights then his power should be able to affect them. Worst case they should get a cover save.

I think logically, the best way to handle it would be to say they give a cover save, but don't block LoS. Because they really do have to open to let the contents out. Otherwise, since everyone gets to basically design the dimensions and look of their spores completely on their own, they could always design spores to dimensions and specifications that are advantageous to the specific unit they plan on deploying with it.

I could have 1 type of spore, modelled 1 way for my ranged nids, and another, designed a different way for my CC critters.

Yes, absolutely true. And for an organic race that evolves differently based on need how does that not make sense?

That would be an extreme case of modeling for an advantage and exploiting the lack of an official model. I have seen spores built that look like a flower opening it's petals... You could easily see right through them on ground level.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
If the Doom can't draw LOS to the Grey Knights then his power should be able to affect them. Worst case they should get a cover save.

They do get a cover save. As it stands most people I know who play Nids (myself included) use the rule for Shooting Attacks, so only models within LOS can actually suffer the Wounds.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
That would be an extreme case of modeling for an advantage and exploiting the lack of an official model. I have seen spores built that look like a flower opening it's petals... You could easily see right through them on ground level.

First, keep in mind that I only own one spore right now. It's not modeled as an opening flower.

It's not modeling for advantage. There's no GW model to compare it to and decide if an advantage is gained.
People using slightly modified Carnifexes for Tervigons before the official model were not modeling for advantage either.