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recently at my FLGS my friend who plays CSM played against Tau.

He was running a couple squads of firewarriors with fireblade in one of them, pathfinders, commander with bodyguards, 2 railheads, railbroadsides and a riptide
and he had a ADL and kept going to ground for that 2+ cover

My friend was running typhus with a squad of termies in a land raider, 2 large squads of plague marines, 2 medium squads of zombies, 3 obliterators a helldrake, and a defiler

the CSM player got destroyed

Some of it was bad luck (the riptide got close to the land raider and then punched it to death and then killed typhus and the termies in close combat because his shield drones took wounds for him and he saved the rest until his ap2 st10 smash attacks killed them)

but he ran his plague marines right up the middle giving the firewarriors much opportunity to light them up with help from pathfinder markerlights

afterwards there came the ton of hate towards new tau and the riptide but since i am a tau player myself i tried to defend them and suggest that the CSMs players tactics needed a bit of work like putting the marines in transports or run the helldrake with the flamer and roast the FW or pathfinders (he doesn't like running it because he thinks its cheese)

any suggestions on how to run his nergle army any better

the battle pretty much went all of tau hid behind the wall while CSM walked accross the field getting shot up trying to reach them

also i did not see this but my friend mentioned that while in rapid fire range the FW with fireblade got 4 shots per model, as far as i thought they got 2 from rapid fire and a third shot from fireblades volley shot if they didn't move (and doesn't standing up count as some type of movement?) sorry i do not have my codex with me at the moment.

thanks in advance for any help

Sounds like he needs some way to get across the board faster, looks like he just plodded forwards to his doom. What was the mission? Objective based means he could probably try to hunker down and hope to weather the storm.

it was purge the alien

and i suggested that he needs to add more transports or something to help him

when we first started playing i beat him because i could sit back and shoot as he tried to run across the board and one game he put a bunch of termies and berserkers in vehicles and ran them at me, i lost almost all my models by turn 3 it was gross.

and i know if he brought the helldrake with the baleflamer he could have roasted the pathfinders or the fw to help him out but he just focused on the riptide.

one funny thing about the match was that he shot at the riptide and killed a missle drone and it failed leadership and ran off the board.

obsidianIV wrote:
the battle pretty much went all of tau hid behind the wall while CSM walked accross the field getting shot up trying to reach them

That is the core of the problem.

Plague marines are still incredibly resilient to fire warriors. You don't want to try to assault the fire warriors. You want to trade shots at 24" away.

obsidianIV wrote:
if he brought the helldrake with the baleflamer he could have roasted the pathfinders or the fw to help him out but he just focused on the riptide.

Especially if the pathfinders were using marker lights to mitigate the bad BS of the fire warriors. The helldrake is a much better choice than the defiler in that regard.

obsidianIV wrote:
My friend was running typhus with a squad of termies in a land raider, 2 large squads of plague marines, 2 medium squads of zombies, 3 obliterators a helldrake, and a defiler

Typhus + termies + land raider is a 700+ point death star. That is a huge investment that can easily be countered. I would not bring that personally.

Typhus is very weak vs STR 10 hits. A riptide smashing on has a decent chance to kill Typhus. 1/3 to hit, 5/6 to wound, 2/3 failed invuln save = 18.5% to kill him per swing. If the riptide did not smash Typhus, he would have had his lunch money taken quickly. Typhus is dishing out a STR 6, AP2 force, daemon weapon.
Your buddy should also have challenged with Typhus, preventing the Tau player from allocating wounds on a shield drone (In fact, he is required to challenge)

Sounds like your friend took a foot slogging army which wasn't suited to the stronger and more shooty tau gun line. Didn't realise their potential and stuck with plan A.
(I did a similar thing the first time I played against tyranids when coming back into the hobby)

The Tau line should have run alarm bells and he should have done anything to get there advantage away from them. Looking at the CSM you describe what springs to mind is deep striking the terminators (if they has a decent load out they could happily flame everything out of the ADL / melta the riptide. That could have left the landraider to transport some of the plague marines advance and try to shoot up the riptide with the obliterators.

Heaven only knows why you would take a medium sized unit of zombies, particularly if you think you are facing tau; defilers are expensive for what they do - a couple of maulerfiends could have been better; so there is a bit of an issue with the list

Sounds like a couple of bad decisions. A few questions might answer some of his problems.

-Did he try and run his PMs? Most people forget to run, but with Tau it's more important to get there a turn early.
-Did he use his terrain well for the infantry? Cover saves may be junk with Tau but you can still block line of sight.
-Did he fight the riptide with the PMs or the zombies? Both are infinitely better matched against a monsterous creature.
-What did the Heldrake hit? I would say he should've been shooting and vector striking the vehicles if possible.
-Did the defiler move forward? Too many people treat them like baslisks, when they should move like dreadnoughts.

He needs more fast distraction units. Things that are tough and can force your opponent to make tough decisions.

I play a typhus list with 2 small zombie squads, a large plague squad, a squad of plaguebearers and 6 oblits (3 squads of 2) sitting behind an ageis with comms as my solid backfield. And a bloodthirster, 5 MoN spawn, and 2 heldrakes as my fast elements.

Now your giving your opponent multiple tough targets to deal with. and when the drakes come on turn 2 (which they should), flame the pathfinders first so now its much harder for the tau to get their buffs. I actually played against the new tau and won in a purge the alien game. The str 7 skyfire missles braodsides are just a gimmick i think. Sure you get a ton of shots but your still only doing anything on a 5-6 and if they arent shooting and KILLING both heldrakes and the thirster and the spawn they are going to wreak havoc.

@humblesteve

he did run the PMs when he could but was not getting far
the terrain they had on the board was not good for blocking line of site, had a bunch of holes so best for cover and the markerlights made short work of that
he fought the riptide with typhus and termies
the helldrake ran the autogun and shot at the riptide and taking out the vehicles would not have done much the railheads kept missing or not doing much
defiler stayed back

@labmouse42
the riptide smashed and i did not know that the riptide was a character and could be challenged

The broadsides are strength eight sky fire

the missles that they can shoot 12 of is str 8? im guessing your reffering to the rail rifle in which case means less shots

obsidianIV wrote:
@labmouse42
the riptide smashed and i did not know that the riptide was a character and could be challenged

Huh, what do you know, its not a character. My mistake. I incorrectly assumed it was.

Plague marines in rhino ftw! Give first blood to take last blood! Blood for the blood god!?

Just move many cardboard boxes 12" then 6" in the shooting phase every turn. 2nd turn disembark 12" rapid bolter range. Can also move rhino 6" disembark 6" and shoot 24" bolters.

obsidianIV wrote:
@humblesteve

he did run the PMs when he could but was not getting far
the terrain they had on the board was not good for blocking line of site, had a bunch of holes so best for cover and the markerlights made short work of that
he fought the riptide with typhus and termies
the helldrake ran the autogun and shot at the riptide and taking out the vehicles would not have done much the railheads kept missing or not doing much
defiler stayed back

@labmouse42
the riptide smashed and i did not know that the riptide was a character and could be challenged

- that sucks about the running. Even with PMs, I advocate getting into combat ASAP against tau. They just drop like paper in combat
- Sometimes the terrain kills you, and there isn't much else you can do
- Typhus' unit is good for several things, but this wasn't one of them. They should be picking on small kids on the playground. The PMs have plague knives which should make quick work of a riptide and the zombies are just a strong tarpit unit
- The autogun is "ok," just not amazing next to the flamer. If he got lucky with the railheads, it doesn't change the point. Heldrake's vector strike is AP3, useless on the riptide (I think?). Best to aim for vehicles and small units with 3+ or worse.
- called it. Defilers work best when using as many of their qualities as possible. As it is, the landraider and defiler could've kept 1-2 units out of LOS for parts of the game, depending on how you played it.

 labmouse42 wrote:

obsidianIV wrote:
@labmouse42
the riptide smashed and i did not know that the riptide was a character and could be challenged

Huh, what do you know, its not a character. My mistake. I incorrectly assumed it was.

Ummm, anywaya typhus should have mopped the floor with him, typhus needs only to score 3 wounds to kill all of them (unless he had de 3++invul on the suit), and even if so, any 6 could be allocated to the suit. That being said, how many attacks does the riptide has?, something like 3?, which would be 2 with smash, so only could kill 2 termies, he can't allocate the wounds to Typhus so the CSM should have won that one. Are the drones beasts in CC or something I'm unaware of?

 Lord Yayula wrote:
Ummm, anywaya typhus should have mopped the floor with him, typhus needs only to score 3 wounds to kill all of them (unless he had de 3++invul on the suit), and even if so, any 6 could be allocated to the suit. That being said, how many attacks does the riptide has?, something like 3?, which would be 2 with smash, so only could kill 2 termies, he can't allocate the wounds to Typhus so the CSM should have won that one. Are the drones beasts in CC or something I'm unaware of?

I'm not positive, but Typhus is unwieldy without EW. The riptide can smash at initiative, which has got to be above 1. It's the only way I see it happening, as any chainfist/powerfist terms would also be harmless. But he still couldn't target Typhus unless it's really unfortunate placement. I still say avoid big fights like that with a Typhus-star. Pick on little kids. Throw plague knives at that thing and watch it cry.

Oh god Beastly CC drones?

All but one wound was saved and tau put it on the drone
I didnt see the full combat so I dont know what happened to the rest of termies

Humblesteve wrote:

 Lord Yayula wrote:
Ummm, anywaya typhus should have mopped the floor with him, typhus needs only to score 3 wounds to kill all of them (unless he had de 3++invul on the suit), and even if so, any 6 could be allocated to the suit. That being said, how many attacks does the riptide has?, something like 3?, which would be 2 with smash, so only could kill 2 termies, he can't allocate the wounds to Typhus so the CSM should have won that one. Are the drones beasts in CC or something I'm unaware of?

I'm not positive, but Typhus is unwieldy without EW. The riptide can smash at initiative, which has got to be above 1. It's the only way I see it happening, as any chainfist/powerfist terms would also be harmless. But he still couldn't target Typhus unless it's really unfortunate placement. I still say avoid big fights like that with a Typhus-star. Pick on little kids. Throw plague knives at that thing and watch it cry.

Yes Typhus has unwieldly and without EW, and the riptide would hit at his I, however you can choose the termies to take the wounds instead of him he can only score 2 wounds maximum on a 5 man squad. The placement shouldn't been a problem if the riptide had just smashed the LR, that means it was next to them, and even if typhus was the closest he LoS in 2's :/ it doesn't make sense at all. And plague knifes won't do much as it has a 2+ sv, you need to hit him with AP2, or kill his drones and make him run, then swept him.

obsidianIV wrote:All but one wound was saved and tau put it on the drone
I didnt see the full combat so I dont know what happened to the rest of termies

What size is the riptide base? if it is one of the new oval ones then 5 termies (including typhus) should be in b2b, which would mean that any termie could take the wounds instead of Typhus, I have no idea why would anyone pick Typhus as the closest model with such a huge area.

 Lord Yayula wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

obsidianIV wrote:
@labmouse42
the riptide smashed and i did not know that the riptide was a character and could be challenged

Huh, what do you know, its not a character. My mistake. I incorrectly assumed it was.

Ummm, anywaya typhus should have mopped the floor with him, typhus needs only to score 3 wounds to kill all of them (unless he had de 3++invul on the suit), and even if so, any 6 could be allocated to the suit. That being said, how many attacks does the riptide has?, something like 3?, which would be 2 with smash, so only could kill 2 termies, he can't allocate the wounds to Typhus so the CSM should have won that one. Are the drones beasts in CC or something I'm unaware of?

Typhus has ~35% to die to the riptide. Thats' with 2 smash attacks. The probmem is the riptide is hitting on a 5 as its has a WS of 2.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Humblesteve wrote:
I'm not positive, but Typhus is unwieldy without EW. The riptide can smash at initiative, which has got to be above 1. It's the only way I see it happening, as any chainfist/powerfist terms would also be harmless. But he still couldn't target Typhus unless it's really unfortunate placement. I still say avoid big fights like that with a Typhus-star. Pick on little kids. Throw plague knives at that thing and watch it cry.

Yea, was Typhus the ONLY model in B2B with the riptide? Why did not Typhus just LoS to the other terminators?

 labmouse42 wrote:

obsidianIV wrote:
@labmouse42
the riptide smashed and i did not know that the riptide was a character and could be challenged

Huh, what do you know, its not a character. My mistake. I incorrectly assumed it was.

I thought all MC were characters

 Exergy wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:

obsidianIV wrote:
@labmouse42
the riptide smashed and i did not know that the riptide was a character and could be challenged

Huh, what do you know, its not a character. My mistake. I incorrectly assumed it was.

I thought all MC were characters

Nah, mostly HQs and some broken MCs like the dreadknight emperor forbid he had any weakness. The trygon, tyrannofex, carnifex are all Mc but not Ch.

obsidianIV wrote:

My friend was running typhus with a squad of termies in a land raider, 2 large squads of plague marines, 2 medium squads of zombies, 3 obliterators a helldrake, and a defiler

the CSM player got destroyed

Some of it was bad luck (the riptide got close to the land raider and then punched it to death and then killed typhus and the termies in close combat because his shield drones took wounds for him and he saved the rest until his ap2 st10 smash attacks killed them)

but he ran his plague marines right up the middle giving the firewarriors much opportunity to light them up with help from pathfinder markerlights

any suggestions on how to run his nergle army any better

the battle pretty much went all of tau hid behind the wall while CSM walked accross the field getting shot up trying to reach them

thanks in advance for any help

(This post may sound like I'm going on a bit too strong / have an angry (or similar) tone, but that's not the intention)

Firstly, the heldrake is not cheese if it's only run on it's own. Two or more is cheese, but a single drake can be taken out by good/clever AA without much difficulty.
The 'drake should be used to assassinate markerlights ASAP. This will drop the Tau firepower like a mega-armoured nob in a 3G environment.
It's next job should be to murderize light vehicles with the vector strike, and non-Riptide elite/HQ units with the flamer.

If he was trying to use the zombies as an offensive unit, that's not a good plan. They're meatshields.
A good tactic is to run a wide, fat wall of the buggers, and walk the PM's and Typhus behind them, if you're going to footslog.

The terminators, IMO, should not be put into the Land Raider. They should DS into the Tau lines to sow terror and confusion. The 2+, 5++ is either going to soak up a ton of anti infantry shots (protecting the zombies), or attract a storm of anti armour firepower (protecting everything). If they survive (which they might), they can assault the Tau, and butcher a good number of them, with a bit of luck.

The PM's should NEVER walk up the battlefield unportected with a Tau LOS to them. That'd be pretty poor tactics indeed. While they're powerful, they are best as mid-field objective/KP hunters, not shock troops or meat shields, or walking Railgun/Plasma/Riptide/Artillery magnets. That's the zombies' job. Find cover or protect with zombies. Avoid Riptides.

Typhus. Gets better the more you allow his slow advance to scare the living s**t out of your opponent. This guy is a walking rape machine if he ever gets close, and the zombie horde thing is a force multiplier, so he's a great choice. The only problem here is that he's been placed in a LR with four terminators as a bodyguard. All the anti-armour firepower will go in one place, possibly removing the LR before it can do anything useful, and then slapping wounds on the termies/Typhus until even the destroyer hive can't help him.
Typhus should, IMO, either DS with ten termies, or walk with the zombies. Use meatshields and cover to get close. Raping ensues.


Basically, he needs to be heartless when it comes down to using his models. Don't worry about letting them get murdered by the hordeful. Protect the marines with zombies. Use them to protect Typhus. Draw the Tau closer by hiding on objectives or in cover/assassinating advance units. When they try to get close, murderize at short range, where nurgle works best.

obsidianIV wrote:

He was running a couple squads of firewarriors with fireblade in one of them, pathfinders, commander with bodyguards, 2 railheads, railbroadsides and a riptide
and he had a ADL and kept going to ground for that 2+ cover
My friend was running typhus with a squad of termies in a land raider, 2 large squads of plague marines, 2 medium squads of zombies, 3 obliterators a helldrake, and a defiler

Against tau, I wouldnt take a very expensive fighty HQ. Especilly not a slow one. A khorne lord on a jugger or a nurgle/slanesh lord on a bike with a pack of bikes has to be dealt with quickly. Bikes will make a mockery of anything tau can put up in assault. Your big nasty Typhus, Abbadon, etc are too slow and too expensive to use against tau. Even Fabious Bile is enough of a CC moster to deal with most tau, so why bother with overkill.
Huron is a great choice as he gives you a great warlord trait that will help you against tau.

CSM Terminators are not very good. DSing with a ton of combi plasma or combi melta (heavy flamer against tau) can be effective but again combat is overkill. Regular CSM are more than capable of shreding tau infantry, so why spend twice as much? Bezerkers can be even better, swinging their chain axes.

Terminators+expensive HQ in a landraider is a terrible idea. You put all your eggs in one baskey you had better be sure nothing can break that basket and that your opponent keeps all his stuff near said basket so they can be worthwhile.

Defilers are expensive and not super effective. All the daemon engines save the heldrake are overcosted and a little limited.

Noise Marines might have been fun. Tau hate noise marines. Str8 ap3 ignores cover is not nice to suits.

As for tactics, Your friend should have killed the pathfinders turn one. Used huron or ahriman to infiltrate 1-3 units of CSM or PM near the enemy to pin them down. The skyfire broadsides are not fast nor particularly hard to kill. Knowing you have a heldrake after killing the easy marketlights you should try and kill anything with skyfire(the broadsides). The riptide is just asking to get tied up in a tide of zombies for the rest of the game. Accomplish those goals(kill marker lights, then kill skyfire, tarpit riptide) and you have basically won if you didnt spend 700 points on a slow overkill HQ.

I would have DS typhus and friends, then had a squad of plague marines jump in the land raider and run up. Sneak the defiler into CC with the riptide for some amusement. Not running the flamer on the heldrake is just dumb(the descision not the person), vectorstrike the hammerheads and toast the pathfinders.

Just my two cents.

Use Typhus's ability to make plague zombies and get like 60 of them. Then get plague marines and some other heavy weapon units to fill out your army

the zombies will soak up wounds and be able to sit on objectives

put the zombies in units of 10 so that everyone cannot get shot at the same time because the extra wounds will not go to the next unit and there are ten with feel no pain so you will survive longer.

also with smaller units you can maneuver them easier