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Hi,
i had a bit of a discussion a short while ago. My opponent wanted to not reveal any of his army, in other words keeping everything in its boxes until placed on the table.
I wonder if this is proper or common. I am only used to hidden list in the meaning of not declaring magic items etc.

Could you enlighten me what is considered polite / common behaviour?

Thanks in advance
alex

p.s. was supposed to be a fun game / non competitive

The game store I play in has shelf space for storage. People will often pull units off the shelf as they deploy. This means people won't know what they are facing until it's deployed.

A few times I've countered this by bringing models I'm not using.

Basically, no hard and fast rules on this, just do something that works.

-Matt

I think lists are fair. A block with a total. Doesn't have to break everything down. This subforum is so big because there a lot of rules gray areas.

If someone isn't playing a race with hidden things like O&G or Skaven or whatever, I'd be less trusting.

But that's me. I don't mind losing games of any kind but I really hate cheating. And the difference between cheating and TFG can be a matter of interpretation.

I normally take everything out of the box and tray it up and put it in the middle of the table, and explain everything that would be visible on the model. For example:

4 Skullcrushers, Banner, Musician, Ensorcelled weapons, Aura of General Badassery.

or

Daemon Prince, Chaos Armor, shield, daemon of nurgle. (they'll also find out almost immediately that he's a level 4 who knows an extra spell and I'll usually mention that he can fly, since my modeled one has enormous wings on).

There's no rule about this as far as I know, but this is what I'd want people to do unto me. Some of my stuff is extensively converted, and I occasionally use the same models for different things (chaos trolls/ogres, skullcrushers/dragon ogres), so it's important to tell people what's going on.


I have played against one guy who not only didn't show you his army but actually wrote his list during the deployment phase and tried to bring counters to whatever you were bringing. However, most people are trying to win the game with luck and skill, not by this type of shenanigans.

Closed lists all the time, check at the end.

kuzao wrote:
Hi,
i had a bit of a discussion a short while ago. My opponent wanted to not reveal any of his army, in other words keeping everything in its boxes until placed on the table.
I wonder if this is proper or common. I am only used to hidden list in the meaning of not declaring magic items etc.

Hidden lists are "how the game is written". With that said, as it didn't address your question, people should place their units and army list in a visible spot before the game begins. This keeps people from bringing multiple lists and pulling out the one after they have seen your army composition. If someone is adamant about not keeping as much as possible above board, aka fair, then find new people to play with.

I enjoy games more where I don't know what my opponent is going to take until each unit is deployed on the table. It makes me adjust more in game and find new ways to use units that I had not considered before.

I like ambushers more when they really ambush. Turn 2 my opponent rolls a die and I go "$HIT", something is in the woods behind me...

-Matt

My opponents & I write our lists up before we meet, deploy as per the rules and then talk each other through what each unit has, and what their upgrades do if it's not obvious or we don't already know.

That way we find it to be fair on both sides, whilst still adding a random factor of not knowing which unit is the stronger. It key theoretically still be abused though you have to have faith in your opponent I guess.

The worst ones for it are the random gamers you meet in your flgs that stroll up after seeing you play a game with your full force deployed, they then offer you a game with a force built specifically to counter you. It can be fun if it still doesn't go their way but for the most part I hate it

Lists and upgrades are for after the game completes.

Normal abilities and rules for a unit are discussed often enough, but only as the unit itself appears. Even that is mostly because I play with folk who know significantly less than I do about other armies.

Personally I place my army fully ranked up in its movement trays on the table, facing myself, before the game. This allows my opponent to get some idea as to what he's facing (Grey Seer, BSB, big block o' slaves, etc.). The only things I leave in my case are things like Assassins that he really shouldn't know are there in the first place. I keep my list to myself until the end of the game, and as I deploy units I turn them to face my opponent so it's apparent which regiments have and have not been deployed.

As far as keeping regiments hidden in a box until they're actually deployed, well there's no rule against it, but I'd consider it to be a jerk move.

...But that's just me.

Thanks guys,
got a good overview about what different people like to do

i personally prefer the 'place everything on the table' approach. somehow i think that warhammer is a strategy game, a bit like chess where you also know what the opponent is bringing ^^

kuzao wrote:
Thanks guys,
got a good overview about what different people like to do

i personally prefer the 'place everything on the table' approach. somehow i think that warhammer is a strategy game, a bit like chess where you also know what the opponent is bringing ^^

Their is a lot of strategy in both players hiding units and choose which to deploy next.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

kuzao wrote:
Thanks guys,
got a good overview about what different people like to do

i personally prefer the 'place everything on the table' approach. somehow i think that warhammer is a strategy game, a bit like chess where you also know what the opponent is bringing ^^

Their is a lot of strategy in both players hiding units and choose which to deploy next.

I believe that these are tactical rather then strategical decisions. Nothing against tactics in general but strategy implies planing rather then reacting or exploiting gaps produced by the opponents tactics.
Despite having fun my biggest objective is to sit at the table, pat my imaginary white cat, smile knowingly and say: perfect, just as planed. ^^

Strategy and tactics tend to be synonyms unless one is discussing things like global war. In fact if you go to any online thesaurus they will list each other. The entire genre of boardgames are usually referred to as strategy games. Though you're right, nearly every single movement is a tactical play.

Closed lists nearly every time but my list is on the table or next to it. Hide stuff in the box like assassins, fanatics and stuff is pretty common I think same goes for magic items and stuff. You will see what I have when you fight my character or my regiment and at that point I tell my opponent what my character/regiment has. After the game he can check my list of course.

There was actually a really cool article in 'Wargames Illustrated' last month about hidden deployments and whatnot, covered topics such as 'the big sheet' across the table, deploying via a map and with a GM responsible for telling players what they can see, sort of a Fog of War aspect...

I prefer not to know ehat my opponent is going to place until he does. It also means that I don't know how many units he has, which makes choosing who deploys first more of a gamble.
I do enjoy putting a couple of DPs beside the table before deployment, just to make him sweat a little .