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I have struggled to interpret the rules regarding whether or not the doomwheel attacks at it's modified strength regarding impact hits and grinding attacks. The army book simply states that it grinds at str 6. If I am not mistaken, TBRB states that impact hits are at the model's strength, so if I am to go on what the rules say then impact hits at modified str and grinding attacks at str 6?

If the strength of a unit/weapon/whatever cannot be modified by a buff/debuff, there will be a note saying so in the rules for the unit/item/whatever.

Since the rules for the Doomwheel don't have such a note, the Doomwheel can have it's strength buffed or (much more likely) debuffed.

Aye, but since the wording in the codex states that grinding attacks are at str 6 not at model str I would have a hard time convincing someone that the hex does indeed affect it. I have looked at the FAQ and if there is anything about this in there then I missed it.

Again it seems strange that a soulblighted doomwheel would hit harder in a turn when it did not charge.

As far as I can gather (unless there is something I am missing) this is a mistype in the army book that must nonetheless be followed as written?

phw4 wrote:
As far as I can gather (unless there is something I am missing) this is a mistype in the army book that must nonetheless be followed as written?

...yup. The Doomwheel is basically a big ol' pile of weird rules with the phrase "Unit Type: Unique" tagged on to the end to justify any serious contradictions.

If it grinds at S6, and not Strenght of Model, then a debuff to themodels strength cannot affect the grind

nosferatu1001 wrote:
If it grinds at S6, and not Strenght of Model, then a debuff to themodels strength cannot affect the grind

All of the effects on the giants chart that has a strength is S6. In the past, GW said that things that affected the giants strength affected the hits caused on the chart.
That is no longer in any of the FAQ's.
Are giants now immune to strength modifications, or are both of these a case of incomplete FAQ's?

HIWPI? Strength buff/debuff affects the hits.

-Matt

Whereas I would play that something not based on S of model is not based on S of model, as that is the current rules.

Hitting harder on a turn where it did not charge is not a problem, just different to other units. It is unique after all

Well, sure. But why does it hit at S6, instead of S10, or S2? Because that's the Strength in its profile.
It's pretty clearly a mistake. Just like with the Giant.

If the strength of an attack is unmodifiable, it says so right in the description (see Ockam's Mindrazor, for example). The rules for the Doomwheel do not say it is unmodifiable. So Enfeebling Foe it all you want.

And yes, I play Skaven.

Yeah, but...Enfeebling Foe says it reduces the target's Strength by D3, right? So the Doomwheel goes from 6 to 4 or whatever.

But the rule for its Grind doesn't technically say anything about where it comes up with the S6 for those D3 hits. So you Enfeeble the 'Wheel, and it Grinds, which uses a number independent of the unit's Strength score...

Grind strength also is reduced. It's not rules as 'unmodifiable' so it can be modified freely.

It's a really simple concept. I'm surprised there's so much trouble with it.

How is the Grind's Strength also reduced? It isn't the model's Strength, it's just the strength of one of it's attacks.
A cannonball fired from an Enfeebled Cannon would still be S10, right?

I mean, I agree with you on how it clearly is meant to work, but it still looks like the 7th to 8th crossover missed a spot here.

Grind has a set value for itself, independent of the models other stats.

You can't reduce it or increase it. Unless the modifier says the model's attacks have their strength reduced.

Valid point there. I hadn't considered that.

Yeah, it just happens to have the same value as the model's strength stat. So the confusion is understandable.

I would not be terribly surprised if grind is intended to be based on the Str of the model, but if interpreting GW's intentions was considered a legitimate way to approach the rules then there would be a problem.

Based on the wording I would not even consider trying to enforce what is ultimately just my opinion, but it would take very little effort by GW to let their intentions be known sometimes. Either grind hits at str or make a point of saying it -always- hits at str 6. Arguably it already clearly states the latter, but not clearly enough for someone like me to look at it and come up with a question mark


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have just looked at the updated FAQ and read this

If the move takes it into a friendly unit, the creature will inflict D6+1 S6 Hits, distributed in the same manner as shooting attacks and then stop 1" away from the unit

There is no FAQ entry regarding the DW hitting an enemy unit.

So now, unless there is another entry I have missed, if a STR hexxed doomwheel hits an enemy unit it's impact hits will do damage at reduced str, but if it hits a friendly unit it will do hits at str 6 ignoring the hex. I think this is a pretty good example that GW are not paying attention.

The Grind attack is obviously meant to reflect the model's attacks; it's just another form of Impact Hits.

To be fair, if Games Workshop cleared up every little confusing bit that everyone ever brought to their attention, I don't think they'd get much else done. There are a lot of books with a lot of texts in them, and they all interact in different ways that players are constantly discovering.

RAI < RAW as we can't be 100% on what was intended

You can't be sure if the sun's going to come up tomorrow, or whether or not your senses can be trusted. But you can make a very, very reasonable guess.

Same thing here. I mean, what is a Grind attack? It's D3 automatic hits. At S6. Which happens to be the same as the model's Strength value.

...it's supposed to be based on the model's Strength.

Of course, by RAW, that currently doesn't matter. If this came up in my game, I'd let my Doomwheel get hexed (because it makes sense), but I wouldn't push for my hex to work on my opponent's Wheel's Grind attacks (because that's technically the way it works).

No, you can't apply that sort of logic to this ruleset. It only makes things more unclear.

The only fair way to interpret the rules, especially across multiple languages, is to read them exactly as they are written. That way everyone is on the same page and has the same understanding.

Going with the literal interpretation is the only way you can have a fair game. Trying to ascribe intention to the rules is bad because you won't actually be applying the authors intention, your are applying what you personally think they intended. What you think they intended and what I think they intended will almost certainly be different, thus its only going to cause trouble

That's true to an extent. But there's always going to be some assumptions that are more or less safe to make.
My point is that no one is 100% positive of anything. But 75%, and 90%, and 99.999% is doable, and I'm not going to let that .0001% doubt stop me from doing what's sensible.

Seriously, what other conclusions could you draw here?
p.71 of the base rulebook under Impact Hit: "some models...cause considerable damage when they crash into the enemy".

p.67 of the Skaven book under Grind Down the Foe: "the Doomwheel itself does a Grind Attack at the beginning of each round of combat in which it did not charge. The Grind Attack represents the giant wheel spinning in place to crush foes"--and then describes an attack that works exactly like Impact Hits, except they have a "set" Strength value.

I mean, I agree with you. By RAW, the Doomwheel's Grind Strength cannot be modified. But c'mon. It's not hard to see. Are the RAI always obvious? No. But this time they are.
I might be able to agree if someone could offer a logical reason for why the Grind isn't just another set of Impact Hits, but until then, I'll go right ahead and assume I know what the author intended this time around. Because all I'm really assuming is that the author is a reasonable, more or less logical person.

Besides, is anyone really going to complain when my interpretation of the rules is only going to hurt me?

The Grind Attack represents the giant wheel spinning in place to crush foes"--and then describes an attack that works exactly like Impact Hits, except they have a "set" Strength value.

The bolded part confirms that it is unmodifiable and not attached to the model's profile.

As it stands RAW states that if you move into an enemy unit, you take the model's strength, modified or otherwise, whereas if you move into a friendly unit you deal str 6 attacks without considering the models str (as per the latest errata).

I am all for playing RAW, but it's hard to convince people to play obviously miss worded rules when it's clear to everyone involved that they are not intended as such.

This vaguely reminds me of Furious Charge and Counter Assault being FAQd in the space wolves errata rather than in the 40k PDF, I was at a loss as to whether this affected my use of Straken's aura since it was not referenced anywhere outside of the space wolves FAQ.

BUt then that is GWs common way of FAQing things - the key answer to Skimmers in 4th ed was found in the Eldar FAQ, the Smoke Launchers plus Scout answer was in BA, and so on.

 Grey Templar wrote:

The Grind Attack represents the giant wheel spinning in place to crush foes"--and then describes an attack that works exactly like Impact Hits, except they have a "set" Strength value.

The bolded part confirms that it is unmodifiable and not attached to the model's profile.

I agree. The bolded part is not part of the book, that's a summary of what it says in my own words.
I'm pointing out how small of a matter it is that, instead of saying something like "D3 hits at the Doomwheel's Strength", or "work these attacks out as Impact Hits", it says "S6". So yes, once again, I agree with you. Totally. By RAW, it is unmodifiable. Clearly, obviously, and without question.
But my point is that, even more clearly, obviously, and with even less questions, that is not what was intended. What else could it be?

So, in this case, I'm going to go ahead and play the RAI, to my detriment, but not my opponent's. Unless we're both running Doomwheels and...I dunno, Wizarding Hats and rolled up Shadow and Enfeebling. Then I guess we'd have to decide which way we want to go.
At which point, I really wouldn't care.