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Made in us
The Last Chancer Who Survived





Norristown, PA

So I thought it might be best to start an all new thread with all the new thoughts gathered in one place. And also 1 place to go to post ideas if you have anything special you'd like to see

I'm not sure when these new things will happen, because it takes so long to make new stuff, and right now our main focus is finishing the Rebels & Reinforcements releases.

I've been posting about the "Weird West Expansion" but we decided to handle things a little differently than most games. What we plan to do is release a series of stand-alone boxed games following a specific storyline or theme, instead of just making expansion books. These boxed games will include everything you need to play...

1 quad-fold double-sided full-color game board, roughly 2'x2' square.
1 human gang of 5 models
1 supernatural pack of 5 models
1 BWG 2.0 rulebook
1 Expansion / Campaign book
1 mini tape measure
6 dice
cardstock punch out templates for building interiors and small standees for obstacles like crates or fences or cactuses.

Books, models and boards will also be sold separately. You could place additional boards next to each other to build your gaming area, and each new boxed game will have new board pieces designed to work with all of the others, so everything will match. The first game is tentatively titled "Curse of the Skinwalker" and the overall theme will be were-creatures and a lot of native american folklore.

The current rulebook will still be valid if you just want to play humans vs humans and keep things more real and/or semi-historical like now. The new 2.0 rulebook will get rules added for campaigns and artillery, and any rules tweaks will also be in FAQs or errata.. Of course I want to sell the new book But, at the same time, I don't want people who bought the old one to feel like it's obsolete all the sudden like some other games do.

All of the rules for creating a pack of skinwalkers and monsters will be in the campaign book, but the core rulebook will have some more general guidelines for supernatural creatures.

We'll probably start development on the first new box set in the coming months and there will be a kickstarter eventually, probably around or just after GenCon? not sure though. Don't want to do it too premature, and don't want it to drag on forever either. But I do know it won't happen till after the current campaigns orders have all been shipped, and that's July at the latest

So that's all I have for now. As I get more details I'll share em, and I'll have an early preview of the Skinwalker rules when I get them more finalized too

   
Made in us
The Last Chancer Who Survived





Norristown, PA

Little change for the rulebook format.. we've decided to do 1 big rulebook for the whole boxed game, instead of splitting it into 2. It will be presented in a "how to play the boxed game" kind of way, with advanced rules for how to use physical terrain and add more people to your gangs. But, right now I'm thinking of removing gang creation rules from the boxed game rules, telling folks to just use the cards that came with your models to form your gangs.

The current rulebook will still be valid, and that has the gang creation rules in it. I'll also do a series of "Official Optional Rules" PDFs for how to make supernatural gangs, campaign rules, artillery and new professions.

Just thinking this will be an easier way to do it, to have all the options folks want, without overwhelming brand new players who bought the board game and suddenly have to read 200 pages before they can start playing. Eventually later on I hope to do a big full color hardback rulebook that will include everything, but that's in a couple years after a few of the expansions come out and we have a big line of minis to show off

Just starting to chat with the fine folks at Ghost Studio, plasticy goodness coming soon

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






I'll divide this into two sections, those being my thoughts on the rules and my thoughts for models and other bitz I'd like to see.

---------------------------------------------------

My thoughts on the rules:

I will say that I agree with the idea of making the custom character rules part of the "advanced" section, and perhaps something to put in the back of the rulebook rather than the middle. I'm a player that likes making his own characters. The problem is that the character creation rules are the most difficult part of the game. It is somewhat time consuming, because of the way all the stats and skills interact with each other.

My biggest complaint is that the game appears to encourage min-maxing. It's very easy to take any character, give them a 6 RC and the biggest gun you can find, and let them go to town. Other games, such as LOTOW, solved this with very strict point limits for purchasing weapons and equipment. You might also want to find a way to cap certain skills... for instance, say a "Henchman" level character cannot ever have an RC or MC over 4. Professionals, 5, and only leaders can have a 6. Something like that.

I did like your earlier idea about creating generic character templates. For example, you could have a pregenerated set of Henchmen and then a bunch of pregenerated archetypes like "Priest," or "Lumberjack" or whatever. This would prevent evil people like me from making cheesey characters. They way it players now, you're kind of dumb if you don't give every single character at least a 5 in their main combat skill and primary profession skill

But I know I'm not the only one who plays this game, so if other players are finding the same thing, speak up.

I am also big on seeing clarification of the "Hired Guns" and how we buy them. It appears that canonical gang leaders and hired guns have abilities that make them superior to any custom character. Right now the "system" I use is pretty much, "Both sides get x professionals, y henchmen, and z hired guns." I personally like the idea of letting gang members "Hire" supernatural characters so that the division between "Human" and "Supernatural" forces are not strictly enforced. Other players may disagree, but that's my 2 cents.

-------------------------------------

Models and bitz I'd like to see:

I know I've thrown out a lot of ideas for various models so far, but hey... how often do you get the chance to tell a game designer exactly what you'd like to see??

To summarize:

- A "Mountain Man" trapper / trader type of character, with bear skins and whatnot. I still like the idea of a werewolf-hunter model based on Liam Neeson.
- A grossly obese psychopath festooned with animal bones.
- An "Alpha" cat Skinwalker resembling a Smilodon.
- After this summer movie season, we will of course require a "Masked Ranger" character with a faithful Indian sidekick.
- Not so big on the idea of "Alpha" skinwalkers using 40mm bases. I prefer 30mm just for the considerations that go along with carrying them in cases and problems of space. As I mentioned before, I would like to see a "Special" or limited edition model on a 40mm base like a Mastadon skinwalker or a Sioux Thunderbird... a really powerful model used in a specialized scenario.

But that's my "wish list." I'm really, really excited about the "Curse of the Skinwalker" because I feel like I've got enough random cowboys and Indians, and I'm itching for something "new."

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/04/25 18:15:01


 
   
Made in us
The Last Chancer Who Survived





Norristown, PA

So, yeah, there will be caps on skills just like you said, 4 for henchmen, 5 for professionals (can only be a 6 if it's their favored attribute) and 6 for bosses.

Hired guns and gang leaders will become one and the same, just called Bosses. Some bosses like Wilt Clancy have a special skill that benefits the whole gang, other bosses like Shamus McFly just have a skill that benefits himself. But any Boss type can lead your gang if you want them to.

Then, you can add other Boss types to your gang, 1 additional boss for every 5 models just like a hired gun now. So if you have Wilt and Shamus in your gang, you're better off using Wilt as the gang leader, since Shamus's skill doesn't benefit anyone else.

But whoever does lead your gang, they will be able to give their profession skill with any friendly model within 12" .. pretty much the same thing as now. So a doctor leader can yell at one of his men to go patch someone up, or a gunslinger can tell em to take their time and aim right.

You can also have an Alpha skinwalker lead your supernatural pack, or it could be another monster like Bigfoot, just like humans any 100xp character can lead.

Basically just going to be 3 levels of characters. Bosses, Professionals and Henchmen for humans and Monsters, Fiends and Beasts for Supernaturals. Thinking that will make things more streamlined, and the max level for attributes will also help discourage minmaxing.

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






I like the idea of combining gang leaders and hired guns into one "class." I think this provides much more variety in gang composition. And from a commercial perspective, it creates more incentive to buy the hired gun models. :-)

   
Made in us
The Last Chancer Who Survived





Norristown, PA

Yeah Gang Leader and Hired Gun is just redundant as 2 different class types, so I guess it will be more streamlined that way.

Also going to be doing away with gang affiliation special rules.. like right now Wilt Clancy's ability effects everyone in the Clancy gang, instead those abilities will effect your whole entire gang. Originally I was planning to have each gang be more like a faction of it's own, but the game kind of evolved and I think doing it this way will allow people to have a lot more variety of figures in their gangs.

   
Made in us
The Last Chancer Who Survived





Norristown, PA

Some new ideas we're kicking around for the boxed game, for the board sizes...

Was going to go with a 22x22" 4-panel double-sided board, and 2 5-man gangs, mostly because I was thinking of it as more of a "starter set" and wanted a lower retail price. I really want to have more minis in the box, but any more than 10 or so and the board will be cramped and probably not as fun to play on. We have to base it on 11" square panels instead of 12" because of the manufacturer's standard box size, will cost a lot more if we have to do our own custom size box.

I'd like to at least double the amount of models in the box set, so we'd need a bigger board .. the manufacturer can do the 4-fold board that's 22x22", 6-fold 22x33", 8-fold 22x44", and 9 fold 33x33". The 9-fold opens up like a spiral, I think that might be a little funky to set up, but I think that would be the best option for the overall size. Or possibly the 8-fold board, with rules saying to set up your men on the far sides across from each other, so there's a long distance between starting areas. What size would you like to see? How big of a board do you usually play on?

We could also do separate board tiles that are all just 11" square, and you lay them out however you like. But, we'd still need at least 6 of them, or 8 or 9? I'm not a real big fan of separate tiles because in games like Sedition Wars it's easy to bump a tile and have everything slide around so I think a solid all-connected board would work better. And they would still be double-sided so you could place 2 boards together for a really big game if you wanted to.

   
Made in us
The Last Chancer Who Survived





Norristown, PA

And, 1 further idea I'm kicking around, is a new mode of play for "infamous gangs" .. basically, everyone in the gang is a boss level/hired gun instead of having professionals and henchmen.

Thinking about doing that for the models in the boxed game, but it would be an infamous gang of 5 heroes, against something like 10 weaker monsters, that would "spawn" in waves, instead of making it a regular old gangfight with 2 equal sized gangs. Would still be balanced, it would just be like 5 gang leaders / hired guns vs a bunch of henchmen and a couple of professionals.

   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User



IN, USA

This seems like a pretty cool game. Always wanted to see a western mini game made.
   
Made in us
The Last Chancer Who Survived





Norristown, PA

Thanks, feel free to check out the rules, you can download them from our site at http://blackwatergulch.com/. The board game rules will be pretty much the same, just extra stuff added on to cover monsters.

   
Made in us
The Last Chancer Who Survived





Norristown, PA

We're about to send the new character cards for Rebels & Reinforcements minis off to the printer. I made a slight change to the format, so that they will be ready for this new version but still work with the current rules too.

Basically just removing the gang affiliation from the cards, so like for the Dockside Drifters, it won't say "Gunsligner - Dockside Drifters" anymore, just "Gunslinger". Gang Leader's special abilities will effect all friendly models, not just who's a part of their gang.

Also all of the new characters will have the new attribute limits, henchmen stats max at 4, professionals at 5 (or 6 only for the attribute for their profession) and gang leaders or hired guns can go to 6.

   
Made in us
Posts with Authority





South Carolina (upstate) USA

Any changes to/plans for a new rulebook?

Wife and I are KS pledgers and have our names in the book, but havent picked up a copy yet.

Whats my game?
Warmachine (Cygnar)
10/15mm mecha
Song of Blades & Heroes
Blackwater Gulch
X wing
Open to other games too






 
   
Made in us
The Last Chancer Who Survived





Norristown, PA

Even with the new game, the current book will still be valid .. it just won't have the info on the monsters, but there will be PDFs to cover whatever is missing. Don't want people to buy the book and then feel like it's suddenly obsolete only a year later, that's worse than GW tactics The actual game rules won't change and there will just be minor tweaks to custom gang creation.

   
Made in us
The Last Chancer Who Survived





Norristown, PA

Some ideas I'm kicking around for the Kickstarter, wondering what ya'll think.

So, we'll have a new rulebook and 2 new gangs to start with, the Unsung (monster hunters) and Werewolf pack. These will be sold separately, guessing something like $20 for the book and $30 for each gang. So, you can pledge $80 to get it all. We'll have a low funding goal to cover the costs of making those new figures in metal.

Plastic molds are real expensive, so we would add the full boxed game as a stretch goal, for whatever it's going to cost to pull it off then everyone who pledges for the rules & both starters automagically gets the full box set instead, which would likely be in the $80 range anyhow. And then the figures would be plastic instead of metal. We'll still be offering everything separately for folks that don't want the full box, but still.

We'll still do stretch goals to unlock other minis too, probably similar to the last one. There will be a few monster hunters and random characters but mostly they will be all monsters since we already have a lot of human figures. I'm hoping to be able to do plastic horses and mounted versions of every gang leader though.. thinking the horses would come with a mounted rider with the saddle sculpted into the legs, and maybe an alt pose of the guy on foot. And of course if we're doing horses there will have to be a Masked Rider too

We'll probably not be doing the campaign until late summer at the earliest. Got a lot of concept art and 3D sculpts to do, and currently we're focusing on finishing up the previous campaign. But, that's kinda how I'm thinking it will go so far

   
Made in us
Crushing Black Templar Crusader Pilot





Minnesota

Plastic sounds awesome! After spending the last week putting together the metal models (and now have to fix at least one of them), I wished they were plastic!

Kind of along those lines, are there any thoughts of transitioning away from metal on existing models? Something like a high quality resin? I know I would rebuy everything in resin/plastic.

Anyways, back to pinning!

   
Made in us
The Last Chancer Who Survived





Norristown, PA

Yeah, I'm not a huge fan of the teeny little bitz in metal, but it's unavoidable if you want cooler poses. Plastic will be so much easier.

Maybe once we get up and running we might look into redoing metal figs in plastic, but that would be pretty low on the list. Want to focus on new stuff But that said, we could probably fit 2-3 gangs on 1 mold, but they would have to get re-sculpted in 3D too.

I'm hoping to go with the usual injection molded styrene like GW and other model kits, not really a fan of resin unless it's for something big. I would like to do building kits or a stagecoach some day, so we would probably do that in resin. But I want to focus on the regular men and monsters first

   
Made in us
Crushing Black Templar Crusader Pilot





Minnesota

Good to hear.

The models do look great, its just they are finicky. But hey, I know how to pin now!

If you do get around to the old gangs, would be fine for most of us I am sure if you resculpted to a new model. That way what I have is old and rare and worth more!

   
Made in us
The Last Chancer Who Survived





Norristown, PA

Oh, and, for the plastic guys in the full boxed game, they will most likely come pre-built like dust tactics or zombicide. Not pre-painted though, just put together already, just so you can crack the game open and start playing. We may end up doing all plastic figures like that, and save the actual model kits for bigger things.

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






Not a big fan of plastic. In my mind, plastic is for cheap, disposable models that you use for troop building... like when your game requires twenty identical mooks. I dislike how light and fragile they feel.
   
Made in us
The Last Chancer Who Survived





Norristown, PA

I agree, I don't mind metal for regular figures, but plastic is easier to work with when you gotta build them with teeny pieces. For the most part we will probably be doing metal for most man sized stuff, just plastic in the boxed game and for any big models that we do, if we can afford to do plastic instead of resin. I don't really like metal for big figures though, like Warjacks for example. I like the feel and weight, but they can be a real pain to build sometimes.

   
Made in us
Posts with Authority





South Carolina (upstate) USA

Ive got to say that metal is my least favorite material, even though when I started gaming it was almost the only thing there was. If metal is the only way something is offered (like the current BWG) Ill deal with it, but plastic would be great.

The idea of basing the new stuff in metal, but going plastic as a high stretch goal sounds good.

Whats my game?
Warmachine (Cygnar)
10/15mm mecha
Song of Blades & Heroes
Blackwater Gulch
X wing
Open to other games too






 
   
Made in us
Crushing Black Templar Crusader Pilot





Minnesota

I love plastic and resin. Just cause it feels cheap doesn't mean it is!

I have friends that probably won't buy BWG solely on the basis that the models are metal. Even though the rules would be great.

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






sparkywtf wrote:
I have friends that probably won't buy BWG solely on the basis that the models are metal.


I understand the feeling. I like a lot of the new Malifaux models, but I won't buy them because they are plastic. I guess there's no way to please everyone.



This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/05/09 02:17:58


 
   
Made in us
The Last Chancer Who Survived





Norristown, PA

hehe .. can't make everyone happy, but I'm trying to find a good middle ground

   
Made in us
Crushing Black Templar Crusader Pilot





Minnesota

Make everything out of wood!

   
Made in us
The Last Chancer Who Survived





Norristown, PA

Good idea!

Coming soon - Blackwater Gulch: The Next Generation


   
Made in nz
Parachuting Para-Commando




Auckland, New Zealand

solosam wrote:
I understand the feeling. I like a lot of the new Malifaux models, but I won't buy them because they are plastic. I guess there's no way to please everyone.


I'm the opposite. I found their metals to be too fine for easy modelling and the plastic ones much easier to work with. It's just a case of horses for courses, I guess. The main thing is we have fun while playing the game

As for the Kickstarter idea, I like having it turn into a single boxed set and/or be retooled in plastic for stretch goals, especially if it's made clear that will be happening up front. Gives backers something to pledge towards.

======Begin Dakka Geek Code======
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Made in us
The Last Chancer Who Survived





Norristown, PA

One other thing I'm planning for the Kickstarter is modular plastic building kits. I've been kind of holding it back while we plan things out, since I wasn't sure if it's something we should add on to the Skinwalker campaign, or do a whole separate campaign that's just for the buildings, and treat it like a whole separate product line (so we can do more than just western buildings).

Anyway, the idea is you have a set of 2x2" square wall panels, but we might change that to as high as 3x3". 1 side would be like horizontal wooden planks/siding and the other would be an interior shot, like a photo frame on the wall with some wainscoting on the bottom, etc. Then they would have little tabs that plug into thin 2" tall support beam looking connector pieces. The wall pieces also have tabs on top, and slots on the bottom for easy stacking. The bottoms of the wall interiors have little tabs to mount the floors onto.

Still trying to decide how to do the floor pieces.. To be truly modular, they need to also be 2" square panels as well... but, it's not going to look "natural" that way, with floor boards being all different lengths. The floors were going to be double sided though, with the other side being like a flat tarred roof, along with some top trim to snap onto the top of the wall pieces. So with the main kit you'd get enough panels to make a 4x4" 1 story flat-roof shop. The storefront would probably be a 2x4" more decorative pice, with a top section that you can swap out with other kits, so the signage parts could all be different shapes.

I'm thinking the main kit will be 2 plastic frames, 1 for walls and 1 for the flat roof, just because it will be easier to produce as a first kit and expand upon later. And who doesn't want flat roofs for ambushes anyway? I imagine later we'd expand and make an A-frame style roof in a new frame, and another frame for just stairs and balconies, all modular too. And if we have space left int he molds we'll fit it with extra little obstacle bits like barrels & crates and fence posts

The regular wall squares would have different designs.. solid walls, window pieces, doors. I was thinking the small building would be 3 solid walls, 2 windows, 1 back/side door and 1 storefront on 1 frame. Then the 2nd frame would be 8 roof/floor tiles and some top trim pieces to connect to the tops of the walls and the flat roofs.. might have to do that as 2 copies of the same room frame with 4 tiles instead of 8.

The reason I was thinking about doing this as a whole separate campaign is the costs involved with the plastic molds are pretty crazy, we would probably need 2 6x8" molds for the main kit, each one would cost at least $12,000. So if we added this on to the next campaign it would have to be a pretty stretch high goal. I have some concept art I'm just starting to sketch out for the 3D guys though so we'll see how it goes once they start building

   
Made in nz
Parachuting Para-Commando




Auckland, New Zealand

Mantic is doing something similar with Deadzone. They're using 3" square panels (and 3" x 1.5" panels) for their buildings and they seem to work.

Also, if you had terrain only rewardsl, it might help bring in some people who wouldn't otherwise be interested in the game.

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Made in us
The Last Chancer Who Survived





Norristown, PA

Yeah that's kind of what I was thinking .. I like the Deadzone kit too pretty much the same idea here, but I think 2" squares will be tall enough, 3" seems too big for a western building, but would work good for sci fi like they are doing.. I also like the mouse matt playing board they are doing, I looked into that but it will be too pricy to include in the boxed game. Actually talking with Justin from Secret Weapon about doing a custom plastic game board tile set to go with the others he is doing, as a board upgrade that would also be a high stretch goal, after the buildings, but we'll see how that goes. Thinking of something like a muddy road system to mix in with their rolling fields tiles.

Hoping the buildings would be a kit that folks that play lots of other games would be into, so I can sell a bunch And then eventually move on to other genres too as a whole separate product line, not just "BWG buildings" .. But we'll start small and see where it goes

One thing I was thinking of... we're going to have flat building interior templates in the boxed game, so people who don't have physical terrain just place them around the board to show where the buildings are. So I might design the building kits to fit the floor templates inside, instead of needing plastic floor pieces, then the kit would just need a roof sprue and a wall sprue. We could also include one of the printed templates in the retail box with each building too. Then we might be able to get away with an angled roof in the main kit instead of making it flat. I wanted the flat roof so we could have it double sided and count as floor pieces too. I still want to do a flat roof style, but maybe a more traditional look will work better for the first kit.

   
 
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