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So I've been playing Lizardmen for the better part of the year and I've begun to solidify my lists. I feel as though my most recent list (posted bellow) is pretty solid. Any thoughts on how I could make it better? I unfortunately have not gotten a chance to thoroughly play test it yet.

Slann:490 points
Lore of Light
BSB
Obsidian Lode Stone and Cupped Hands of the Old Ones
Disciplines: Focus of Rumination / Focus of Mystery / Becalming Cognition

Saurus Warriors: 270
x20 w/ spears
Full Command

Saurus Warriors: 270
x20 w/spears
Full Command

Temple Guard: 400
x20
Full Command
Razor Standard

Stegadon: 235

Chameleons: 108
x9

Salamanders: 225
x3 salamanders
x9 handlers

Total: 1998 points.

I love constructive criticisms!

Combine the saurus and drop the spears. The parry is infinitely better than an extra rank of attacks.

Drop the temple guard, and the steg for skink skirmishers. They are so good at what they do vs their cost.

I find that salamanders work better with 2 salamanders and minimal handlers.

I have been considering dropping the spears, but that yields only 40 points which isn't enough to really do much. Also in the one game I played, the temple guard tanked about 3/4 of my opponents army for half the game. At this point, I am rather attached to them. I have discussed with my friend about ditching the stegadon, however he discouraged me from it, saying that it will be handy for blocks of infantry. Sense it delivers impact, normal AND thunder stomp attacks on top of it causing terror and having T 6 which is understandably scary for infantry. I have in the passed run hordes of Saurus before, but they would regularly get flank charged. For the Saurus it seems groups of 3 work best: one facing forward and one on either flank, and the Slann in the middle offers needed support to what ever blocks were in trouble.

Not to discount you, just to further explain my position.

Photek Xili Kor wrote:
I have been considering dropping the spears, but that yields only 40 points which isn't enough to really do much. Also in the one game I played, the temple guard tanked about 3/4 of my opponents army for half the game. At this point, I am rather attached to them. I have discussed with my friend about ditching the stegadon, however he discouraged me from it, saying that it will be handy for blocks of infantry. Sense it delivers impact, normal AND thunder stomp attacks on top of it causing terror and having T 6 which is understandably scary for infantry. I have in the passed run hordes of Saurus before, but they would regularly get flank charged. For the Saurus it seems groups of 3 work best: one facing forward and one on either flank, and the Slann in the middle offers needed support to what ever blocks were in trouble.

Not to discount you, just to further explain my position.

Last time I fought a lizardmen army with a temple guard, I killed all bar 1 model in the first round and took the slann off in the second. There are times when you need to run, plus with 1 big block of saurus and no temple guard, you get more skink skirmishers, which are the best thing in the book. The stegadon can work, if you take multiples of them, but saurus are better at dealing with infantry, and can't get one shotted by cannons. And it doesn't get normal and thunderstomps. Only thunderstomps. And if your horde of saurus is getting flank charged, then it is because you're over extending them.

The best lizardmen list out there, to date, is the light/metal dual slann skink list.

May I ask what army you play? I have experienced that saurus warriors have far less combat prowess than the temple guard lacking the additional weapon skill, strength and armor. In the worst case scenario, say a cavalry charge, the saurus warriors usually would loose a rank, fail to wound then break from combat and be overrun. On the other hand a unit of temple guard will usually take a few casualties and stay in combat, then win the next combat(s) until they wipe the unit or they break. The problem with a single horde of saurus warriors is that your opponent will usually outnumber you, thus if you fail to break the apposing unit in a single round of combat, you are usually left wide open to a flank charge.

Further more the ability to put a Slann in the second rank of temple is invaluable because the unit protects the slann and the slann can effectively tank characters wielding magic Items (5 wounds and a 2+ ward save will do that) and can cast out of combat. So if the slann was put in any other unit and it will be locked in combat and be unable to cast properly, and if he is outing floating alone then he will be easily picked off. Also given the Lord point limits it is impossible to field to slann in under 2200 points.

let me correct myself; stegadon on the charge gets 1d6+1 impact hits, then 4 attacks, then 1d6 stomp attacks all delivered at strength 5. And yes it is an excellent target for war machines. which is the point. even a single empire cannon will one shot it only about 1/3 of the time, Before rolling to wound ect, ect. Which not only diverts pressure from my core blocks but also buys the time needed for the chameleons to put it out of commission.

I have run skirmisher lists, which has worked, except against any army with a decent armor score.

Thanks for the input!

Photek Xili Kor wrote:
May I ask what army you play? I have experienced that saurus warriors have far less combat prowess than the temple guard lacking the additional weapon skill, strength and armor. In the worst case scenario, say a cavalry charge, the saurus warriors usually would loose a rank, fail to wound then break from combat and be overrun. On the other hand a unit of temple guard will usually take a few casualties and stay in combat, then win the next combat(s) until they wipe the unit or they break. The problem with a single horde of saurus warriors is that your opponent will usually outnumber you, thus if you fail to break the apposing unit in a single round of combat, you are usually left wide open to a flank charge.

Further more the ability to put a Slann in the second rank of temple is invaluable because the unit protects the slann and the slann can effectively tank characters wielding magic Items (5 wounds and a 2+ ward save will do that) and can cast out of combat. So if the slann was put in any other unit and it will be locked in combat and be unable to cast properly, and if he is outing floating alone then he will be easily picked off. Also given the Lord point limits it is impossible to field to slann in under 2200 points.

let me correct myself; stegadon on the charge gets 1d6+1 impact hits, then 4 attacks, then 1d6 stomp attacks all delivered at strength 5. And yes it is an excellent target for war machines. which is the point. even a single empire cannon will one shot it only about 1/3 of the time, Before rolling to wound ect, ect. Which not only diverts pressure from my core blocks but also buys the time needed for the chameleons to put it out of commission.

I have run skirmisher lists, which has worked, except against any army with a decent armor score.

Thanks for the input!

I play competitive Dark Elves. And everytime I see Temple Guard and Saurus, I do a little dance, because they are so easy for me to deal with. Even without Mindrazor, I took out a block of temple guard in a turn. The next Round I put my magical Dreadlord into the slaan's flank and killed it. The not being able to flee is more of a punishment than a benefit. Yes, the added WS and Armour on Temple Guard may work,but they are still overcosted for what they do.

As for the Skirmisher list, it does work, because a Metal slaan, which is a better dynamic until you can get the dual frogs, provides the anti armour, and the skinks deal with everyone else. Look at Chris Tomlin of The Black Sun podcast/gaming team thing and his lizardmen, or Sneaky Gobbo(I know there is an underscore, my key for that doesn't work) on this forum.

I have never played against a dark elf army yet which might help explain my nativity. So far in my fantasy experience I have played against primarily: Empire, Orgers, Dwarves, Chaos and Bretonia. In which Lore of Light has had a little something against all of them. and its hard to go wrong with ws 10 init 10 saurus warriors.

Thanks for mentioning those people, I'll check them out this evening.

Photek Xili Kor wrote:
I have never played against a dark elf army yet which might help explain my nativity. So far in my fantasy experience I have played against primarily: Empire, Orgers, Dwarves, Chaos and Bretonia. In which Lore of Light has had a little something against all of them. and its hard to go wrong with ws 10 init 10 saurus warriors.

Thanks for mentioning those people, I'll check them out this evening.

Against all of those, bar chaos and Brets, Skinks will do wonders, poison vs low armour save armies is amazing. Against Brets, the skinks have another purpose, redirect the daylights out of everything. WIth each full unit pumping out 40 poisoned shots a turn and costing 70 points, you can see how good they are.

they're not quite that good. For 70pt you get ten skirmishers which is 20 shots, averaging 3 poisons per shooting phase which might kill a chaos warrior. Assuming you can actually get into its abysmal range of 12 without getting ganked by something. Even lonely clan rats can beat skinks, they're cheaper and better. Anything but zombies can beat the skinks ws 2 and t 2. the only thing they have going for them is the init 4, movement 6 and poison. Against a specific opponent they can be good but otherwise they work well for rounding out the corners; not much else.

 Photek Xili Kor wrote:
they're not quite that good. For 70pt you get ten skirmishers which is 20 shots, averaging 3 poisons per shooting phase which might kill a chaos warrior. Assuming you can actually get into its abysmal range of 12 without getting ganked by something. Even lonely clan rats can beat skinks, they're cheaper and better. Anything but zombies can beat the skinks ws 2 and t 2. the only thing they have going for them is the init 4, movement 6 and poison. Against a specific opponent they can be good but otherwise they work well for rounding out the corners; not much else.

Either way, 3 poisoned shots a turn is likely to kill an ogre. three halberdiers or two dwarves. Against chaos/brets, you use the skinks to block them off or make it so that if they move, they have to spend a turn pursuing you, or reform . Lizardmen chaff is one of the best things ever, plenty of skinks give you so much control of the game before it even starts, so that by the time your saurus get into play, you are going in where and when you want to.

Although, and this only just occured to me, your meta might be different to mine. My meta uses the SCGT 2013 comp pack at 2400 where most lizardmen players run dual slann. SO they can deal with warriors relatively easily with searing doom and banishment.

I have been playing Lizardmen lately and have found my Temple Guard very good.

With Lore of life (loremaster Slann) cast Throne of Vines and the follow up with Earth Blood on the unit.
My Slann is also my BSB and has the std of Discipline
Now my Temple Guard (with Banner of Eternal Flame) strike on their initiative with +1 Str (5) Flaming and have a 4+ Armour Save in close Combat (3+ vs Shooting) and a regen save 5+ (4+ if Throne is up when cast) and are automatically stubborn becasue the slann is in the unit. And they are throwing 3 dice to test for leadership 10 (pick the two lowest) with a re-roll.
I usually run about 28 of them but have gone as low as 20 depending on tournament size.

I have fought against dark elves and taken on 2 Hydras at the same time. I have not been wiped out in 2 rounds of combat nor have I come close to having that done to me. On my turn I can regrow my unit.

Yes I can be stomped and thunderstomped.

Depending on your army I may let magic whittle you down first or shooting. Or if you have superior magic or shooting I might be rushing forth to engage you in combat.

I would like to know what someone would use to drop this unit in a turn or 2 that is not a magic spell.

 Da_Viking wrote:
I have been playing Lizardmen lately and have found my Temple Guard very good.

With Lore of life (loremaster Slann) cast Throne of Vines and the follow up with Earth Blood on the unit.
My Slann is also my BSB and has the std of Discipline
Now my Temple Guard (with Banner of Eternal Flame) strike on their initiative with +1 Str (5) Flaming and have a 4+ Armour Save in close Combat (3+ vs Shooting) and a regen save 5+ (4+ if Throne is up when cast) and are automatically stubborn becasue the slann is in the unit. And they are throwing 3 dice to test for leadership 10 (pick the two lowest) with a re-roll.
I usually run about 28 of them but have gone as low as 20 depending on tournament size.

I have fought against dark elves and taken on 2 Hydras at the same time. I have not been wiped out in 2 rounds of combat nor have I come close to having that done to me. On my turn I can regrow my unit.

Yes I can be stomped and thunderstomped.

Depending on your army I may let magic whittle you down first or shooting. Or if you have superior magic or shooting I might be rushing forth to engage you in combat.

I would like to know what someone would use to drop this unit in a turn or 2 that is not a magic spell.

Vampire Death Stars are likely the only thing with enough killing power. A vampire lord and 2 vampire heroes, all with red fury, all mounted up in a black knight bus with flaming banner. 13 attacks that wound and kill on 2's and make more attacks has a good shot at sweeping a temple guard unit.
The Death Star, unbuffed, does ~23 wounds on the charge against the temple guard by initiative 3. Then at initiative 2, the slann standing all alone takes 4 horse attacks...

Of course, it's a 661 point unit with 743 points of characters. But for pure death star killing power, vampires do it better than anyone else. The abundance of very cheap chaff makes their death stars better than most. Red fury to magnify attacks, and a magic lore that gives you re-rolls to hit and re-rolls to wound makes this a very dangerous unit.

-Matt

Yeah Im gonna have to agree with darkavenger. Skinks are awesome and temple guard are not great for ther point cost. I dont use TG because of their point cost. Also if i dont want my unit of sauri to break I run crown of command. You need the option for your slann to be able to leave the unit.TG are bound to the slann, he can not leave and TG can not leave him. I dont like that. And again they are a point sink. You get more sauri (more attacks)(more armour saves) when you dont run TG.
Skinks are amazing for their point cost AMAZING. Ive taken down a decked out daemon prince with them. Sure they break/flee but thats part of the strategy they will rally (3d6) and youve redirected a charging unit so now your sauri block, steg, or cav can charge. They are so good ive seen all skink lists and they work.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What can take out 2 hydras in a turn? A bunch of poison darts. Lol. A decked out VC lord with VC heroes, in a horded unit of grave guard wGW and banner of barrows (+1 to hit). This unit will grind through the best of the best and keep on smiling

Temple guard look way over priced for their stats. But look closely at the wording of "Guardians" on the slann page. Then you realize what happens. Normally if you had your slann is floating out alone, he runs the risk of getting picked on by enemy magic and artillery or even getting charged, something he cannot survive. You could put him in another unit but once that unit is charged he is stuck, allowing your enemy to effectively lock down your mage. But if you put him in a unit of temple guard he can still act normally and even shoot magic missiles at other units. That combined with the fact that he is in a unit makes him many times harder to kill allowing you to drop his defenses and focus more on magic. In every game I always dominate magic because of my slann giving me the edge. or if I feel like it I can give him unfathomable presence and give the temple guard 4+ ward saves against magic. Now your opponent who thought he's so clever by charging your temple guard is now stuck in a tar pit all the while the slann can be blowing chunks out them with magic.

Seriously, skink skirmishers are nice to have but don't make an army. They can't have banners, drop like fly's, can't fight in melee worth a damn, can't compete against actual shooting units, and worse of all they can't even poison half the time. If you march with skink skirmishers into range they can't poison (rules say you can still shoot but you take a -1 for multiple shots, -1 for outside half range, and another -1 because they aren't quick to fire leaving your bs 3 skinks at 7+ to hit which in the rules states you need to role a 6 then a 4 to hit and cannot poison or killing blow) the same thing happens again when they are charged. Thus when your enemy laughs as they charge you with 10 clan rats and you can either flee and possibly die or stand and shoot. then die. so again they are nice to have but better when your opponent has scary stuff to shoot at.

also if you take too many of them (and I have had this happen) then they overcrowd each other leaving some units out of range and others in your opponents charge arc, and then your skinks are charged and flee or die, your enemy then pursues into the next unit and so on and so forth till they either run out of steam or a unit of skinks finally roles lizard eyes on leadership (if they loose combat by four that's how it's gonna be, charge + banner then all they need to do is kill 2 skinks and you loose by 4, better be rolin' 1's).

saurus are good, I run them so I can laugh as make them ws10 and init10 with lore of light.

 Photek Xili Kor wrote:

If you march with skink skirmishers into range they can't poison (rules say you can still shoot but you take a -1 for multiple shots, -1 for outside half range, and another -1 because they aren't quick to fire leaving your bs 3 skinks at 7+ to hit which in the rules states you need to role a 6 then a 4 to hit and cannot poison or killing blow) the same thing happens again when they are charged.

So fire a single shot. Only use the multiple shots when you're at short range or not moving.
Being able to march and fire gives the skirmisher skinks a good threat area.

-Matt

I'm watching this thread intently. The next tournament I'm thinking of going to has like, a crapload of restrictions for all the factions (read: actually only nerfs Lizardmen) including a limit on Skink Skirmishers, and a maximum 90 shots per army of ranged shooting or something.

Plus I just love Saurus blocks, so any list thats focusing on them over those Skinks is good by my books.

you can't shoot only one shot. otherwise what you are saying is correct. it's like saying you're going to role 2d6 and a 1d3 for casting so you don't miscast. You have to use what is stated in the rules.

 Photek Xili Kor wrote:
you can't shoot only one shot. otherwise what you are saying is correct. it's like saying you're going to role 2d6 and a 1d3 for casting so you don't miscast. You have to use what is stated in the rules.

You can actually shoot 1 shot if you want to. Read the multiple shots special rule. You can choose to fire 1 shot at no penalty, or a number of shots at -1.

-Matt

Matt is correct