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I main a CSM army and I love it. But I am always partial to exploring allies as a concept.

Chaos Daemons are the only battle brothers to CSM. So, what do they add to a CSM army?

Has anyone had success with having them as allies to a CSM army? What did you take for their allied detachment? Tactics?

So far, I am not seeing that much synergy between the two, to be honest, even though they are battle brothers. :(

A good way to squeeze in monstrous creatures I suppose.

Things that I have found to help (and some depends on your build)

Plauge bearers are a better backfield scoring unit than any in the CSM book

Divination powers for Tzeentch HQs

More Forward threat

Horrors are cheap scoring units and can put out a disgusting number of shots if you'd prefer to have your CSM go up close and personal.

I always used daemons with my CSM. Usually a bloodthirster, bloodletters and a soulgrinder. Then I realised I love daemons, bought more, then started using CSM as allies for my daemons

The list:
CSM
Huron Blackheart
10 CSM, Las/Melta
10 CSM Missile/Melta
5 Spawn, MoN
Heldrake, Baleflamer
3 Obliterators, MoN
5 Havocs, 4 AC
Daemons
LoC, GR, ER, ML3 (Portalglyph)
10 Plaguebearers
Soulgrinder, MoK

What Daemons add is psychic powers and support, additional fast threat, a Pie plate on an AV13 vehicle that is also a diverse threat with skyfire in a pinch, some fairly resilient troops that can deepstrike and a Portalglyph to add to the somewhat weak amount of scoring units.

A Perfect balance if you ask me :-)

Cilithan

You NEED a reason to take a bloodthirster?
Seriously, take a bloodthirster, shout blood for the blood God and giggle like a pink horror as it tears anything it meets in combat in half.

And it has BS 10, mostly because it can.

Just 1 question. If the plague bearer has an icon of chaos and an instrument of chaos, if it deep strikes in from reserve, does that mean I can choose to have an obliterator or a mutlator unit come in for sure, and if I place it within 6 inches, it will not scatter (assuming nugle marked of course).

That might make things more interesting.

Obliterators are daemons, as are Mutilators and warp talons. Being able to pin point deep strike them in on turn 2 everytime a daemon unit comes in from reserve might be nice. Has anyone tried this? Does this work the way I think it does?

I'd bring in Flesh Hounds as allies personally. They're fast, they can scout, they're durable, they hit fairly hard, and the opponent is forced to deal with them at the very least.

Then you have the choice of either a Herald or an MC. If Herald, give the Grimoire to it and cast on hounds. If it passes, scout them forwards and watch them tank a lot of fire. If it fails, Scout them into cover.

If you decide on an MC, a Divination Lord of Change is always nice to have.

Get Horrors as troops and stick them in a ruin to go to ground and never die.

Runs around 600-700 points though. But you should still have enough room for Heldrakes, Oblits, etc. for the rest of your army. I'm a fan of Noise Marines with allied Daemons... though I'd be worried about anti-tank.

Tzeentch terminators with storm shield equivalent?

flying MC's, 2+ cover save ordnance with skyfire alt., divination.

CD has far better melee troops then CSM.

A khorne army has no reason to take Berserkers, but has every reason to take Bloodletters and other khorne units.

Slaanesh rending Daemonettes balances out nicely with blastmasters in the back.

Nurgle is tough goodness, as despite not being T5 with FNP, plaguebearers are far cheaper, and can still go to ground with their shroud save. Not to mention a GUO of any kind is fun with them.

Tzeentch has good massed shooting, divination, Fateweaver, and some interesting units to work with.

Not to mention chaos just benefits well from adding a soulgrinder.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
Just 1 question. If the plague bearer has an icon of chaos and an instrument of chaos, if it deep strikes in from reserve, does that mean I can choose to have an obliterator or a mutlator unit come in for sure, and if I place it within 6 inches, it will not scatter (assuming nugle marked of course).

That might make things more interesting.

Obliterators are daemons, as are Mutilators and warp talons. Being able to pin point deep strike them in on turn 2 everytime a daemon unit comes in from reserve might be nice. Has anyone tried this? Does this work the way I think it does?

They will still scatter d6,which is a significant reduction. They are daemons, but mark of Nurgle does not make them a Daemon of Nurgle. The wording is key.

I don't have my codex on me, but you need to check the wording on the instrument to see if it is for a friendly unit in reserve, a daemon hit in reserve, or a chaos daemons unit.

stewy37 wrote:

I don't have my codex on me, but you need to check the wording on the instrument to see if it is for a friendly unit in reserve, a daemon hit in reserve, or a chaos daemons unit.

Both Icons and Instruments affect units entirely composed of models with the Daemon rule. So yes, this would work.

The correct answer to the questions is Grimmoire.

And, I'm pretty sure the correct question is, "What do Chaos Demons add to the CSM army?" or... "What does Codex: Chaos Demons add to CSM?"

That portal glyph could be interesting too. A chaos tervigon!

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I main a CSM army and I love it. But I am always partial to exploring allies as a concept.

Chaos Daemons are the only battle brothers to CSM. So, what do they add to a CSM army?

Has anyone had success with having them as allies to a CSM army? What did you take for their allied detachment? Tactics?

So far, I am not seeing that much synergy between the two, to be honest, even though they are battle brothers. :(

Chaos Daemons are effectively four half armies molded into one. Nurglite units are all about slow and steady wins the race (until plaguebearers got nerfed anyway), they are slow but hit decently hard and are a bitch to kill. Slaanesh is a melee glass cannon, extremely fast, capable of bringing serious hurt when they get there, but will crumple like wet tissue paper to anything more than token ranged firepower. Khorne is fairly balanced melee, he hits hard, he's reasonably good at taking hits, but lacks in esoteric rules for an extra edge. Tzeentch is a ranged and goofy glass cannon, esoteric powers up the wazoo, massive amounts of dakka, but highly dependent on the graces of lady luck and will fall apart if forced into melee.

You of course can mix and match these units, and which one you want allied to your marines depends on what you want as support. Tzeentch offers good dakka and your marines are already plenty good at soaking up shots, but be warned, rolling badly for warpflame is probably the worst thing that can happen to you. As in a bad roll gives your enemies stackable 6+ feel no pain terrible. As in a spat of bad luck can make an enemy unit literally invulnerable to non instant death weapons.

Ignore any tzeentch unit with warpflame in it, the dakka they can output is not worth the chance of giving your enemies feel no pain for free, Daemonettes are probably the best troops and Lords of change remain pretty good. Blight drones are also snazzy choices, but you have helldrakes. For heavy support, try blood slaughterers for. For elites, meh just get Decimators, the elite and fast attack sections of the Daemons book is rather deficient in outstanding units, especially since Juggernauts are terrible now.

 Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:

stewy37 wrote:

I don't have my codex on me, but you need to check the wording on the instrument to see if it is for a friendly unit in reserve, a daemon hit in reserve, or a chaos daemons unit.

Both Icons and Instruments affect units entirely composed of models with the Daemon rule. So yes, this would work.

You'll need to read a little further in the Icon rules (p64). Sadly, the Icon doesn't work. The Instrument works to make them auto-pass the Reserve roll, as the Instrument only cares if you have the Daemon special rule. However to get the reduced scatter you must have the Daemon of Khorne, Daemon of Slaanesh, Daemon of Tzeentch, or Daemon of Nurgle special rules. One of those four. The only unit in the CSM codex which has those is a Daemon Prince.

DonerStoom wrote:
You NEED a reason to take a bloodthirster?
Seriously, take a bloodthirster, shout blood for the blood God and giggle like a pink horror as it tears anything it meets in combat in half.

And it has BS 10, mostly because it can.

Shouldn't it have a BS of 0 and a WS of 10?

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

DonerStoom wrote:
You NEED a reason to take a bloodthirster?
Seriously, take a bloodthirster, shout blood for the blood God and giggle like a pink horror as it tears anything it meets in combat in half.

And it has BS 10, mostly because it can.

Shouldn't it have a BS of 0 and a WS of 10?

Khorne is the God of BATTLE. Not the God of melee. Part of warfare is shooting.
And the bloodthirster has his whip, which is a ranged weapon.

Daemonettes and seekers are awesome additions to my noise marine army

stewy37 wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

DonerStoom wrote:
You NEED a reason to take a bloodthirster?
Seriously, take a bloodthirster, shout blood for the blood God and giggle like a pink horror as it tears anything it meets in combat in half.

And it has BS 10, mostly because it can.

Shouldn't it have a BS of 0 and a WS of 10?

Khorne is the God of BATTLE. Not the God of melee. Part of warfare is shooting.
And the bloodthirster has his whip, which is a ranged weapon.

Given how most Khornate servants are described as forgetting they even have ranged weapons when they charge into battle...

Maybe so, but in the current Daemons book they decided to make Daemons of Khorne focused on melee but skilled at both. Even the basic lesser daemon has BS5. Blood Letters manning an Icarus and defense line can make great backfield objective-campers and ack-ack, while being able to defend themselves from assault as well.

stewy37 wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

DonerStoom wrote:
You NEED a reason to take a bloodthirster?
Seriously, take a bloodthirster, shout blood for the blood God and giggle like a pink horror as it tears anything it meets in combat in half.

And it has BS 10, mostly because it can.

Shouldn't it have a BS of 0 and a WS of 10?

Khorne is the God of BATTLE. Not the God of melee. Part of warfare is shooting.
And the bloodthirster has his whip, which is a ranged weapon.

Okay, that makes sense!



Does he at least have WS10 as well?

Of course.

One word: Divination.

Slannesh is a great way to get at iniative AP2 with all the rending that they can bring. Dirt cheap too.

 Jayden63 wrote:
Slannesh is a great way to get at iniative AP2 with all the rending that they can bring. Dirt cheap too.

Just be wary, even a stiff breeze will make a slaaneshi force crumple.

But its been my experience that the girls tend to get ignored due to other more pressing threats that CSM can provide, or the girls soak more damage than is really needed due to the fear of just how much damage they can throw out.

Either way, its one more troop choice that might still be around at the end of the game and that tends to work out in the end.

 Jayden63 wrote:
But its been my experience that the girls tend to get ignored due to other more pressing threats that CSM can provide, or the girls soak more damage than is really needed due to the fear of just how much damage they can throw out.

Either way, its one more troop choice that might still be around at the end of the game and that tends to work out in the end.

Still better then Tzeentch troops who can accidentally make your enemies invulnerable by stacking FNP onto them.

Somewhere a Lord of Change is facepalming.