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Is there anything in the GK codex that is not cheese, and what are your reasonings?

Yes. Yes, there is.

Henchman squads that aren't min-maxed are not cheese. They're barely decent.

Strike squads aren't really cheese. They're just slightly better tac marines with power weapons, as far as I'm concerned.

Most of the special characters who aren't Coteaz aren't cheese. Stern, for example. Anything called a Brother-Captain is pretty much normal power level.

Storm Ravens aren't cheese unless you're comparing them to the hilariously bad Dark Angel fliers.

There is plenty of stuff that isn't cheese. A ton of it actually. It's just overshadowed by those few things that are super cheesy, which is what is mainly run.
Basically

Draigo
Paladins
Coateaz
Psyflemen dreads.
Vindicare assassin.

Are the 5 cheesy things. I'd say pretty much everything else is fair game. Unfortunately, these 5 things are also some of the most common thing's to see on the table when facing GK

Every codex has power units & min/maxable units.

If you want to play competitively give up on the notion of "cheese" and replace it with "Efficient".

If you don't want to play competitively tell your opponent. I often have 2 lists on me, one meant to be competitive & one meant to be fun depending what my opponent wants to play.

Yes there is. Servitors which are mindlocked without an inquisitor, Brotherhood champions (non IC's that are melee beasts but can be easily denied), most of the Henchmen as they are weak and overcosted options (not the DCA's though-their pretty badass)

no more cheesy then other codexes, far less then some
Gk has good units, but pays for them,

only undercosted thing is coteaz, by maybe 15-20 pts, but with how frikken cheap say, the DA lvl 2 librarian is, he might not even be over costed at all in 6th ed

GK and necrons get pooped on for cheese just because they are the first "6th ed" codexes, so they happened to work well with the meta before new 6th ed codexes came along

Cheese is the age old battle cry of the unprepared.

Read the enemies codex, know what he can do, know your own strengths and weaknesses and plan accordingly.

With the exception of players playing the older codexes(Eldar, Orks and SOB). If you find yourself getting stomped by Grey Knights constantly, it is your own fault.

I will say, however that players playing as Dark Eldar and Demons shouldn't feel bad about losing. DE or Demons vs GK is a tough match up.

I would say the only under-costed (aka cheesy) unit in the codex is Coteaz. Everything else, we pay for. Heck, our basic troop choice is 20 points per model without upgrades! People hate Paladins; they cost 55 points each, and a single thunder-hammer or lascannon will zorch them instantly (barring a failed invul save). Draigo: 275 points for an AP3 weapon and a storm shield, and EW. Appropriately expensive. Dreads are cheap enough, but it's still only 4 shots and they are still only armor 12. Heck, Necron barges are only like 90 points and they put out a crap-ton of dakka. Sure, GK have some killer units, but we pay for them. Just make em roll enough dice, and they will die like everything else.

This looks like one of those threads we used to see on the World of Warcraft forums, right after someone got their gonads handed to them in a small paper bag.

"WHY ARE [enter class here] SO OP!?"

Actually, I play Orks and I've beaten Grey Knights repeatedly, CrazyCryptik.
Still, Grey Knights are only so good. They can get ridiculous and OP in certain cases, but they are beatable by denying them any chance to use their cheese.

 Purifier wrote:
This looks like one of those threads we used to see on the World of Warcraft forums, right after someone got their gonads handed to them in a small paper bag.

"WHY ARE [enter class here] SO OP!?"

I was about to say the same thing.

Seriously learn and move on, just because your lose does not make them OP. I regularly destroy my own Draigo/Paladin list with my CSM.

easysauce wrote:

GK and necrons get pooped on for cheese just because they are the first "6th ed" codexes, so they happened to work well with the meta before new 6th ed codexes came along

GK's & Necrons are 5th edition books. They simply have some early hints, and/or (in the case of Necrons), were being written while 6th ed was likely being play-tested and hammered out.
Gk's however are very much like the 7th ed Skaven book from Fantasy; a very few hints to the new edition, but solidly made for the current (7th) edition.

GK's were to 5th edition what Daemons wer eto 7th edition Fantasy - no fun to face unless you went out of your way to build a horribad list. 6th simply brought them down a peg and have now leveled them out with most everyone else.
But Daemons still have huge issues due to how outright OP the GK codex is vs them. Yes Daemons can win, but it's always an uphill battle unless you're playing against a tactical idiot.
Tyranids also tend to cry, while Orks will still get routinely pasted by a Purifyer list unless they semi-tailor to beat it. (ie: remove all combat units but Meganobz and bring out the max Shootas & Lootas to dakka them.)

Experiment 626 wrote:
Orks will still get routinely pasted by a Purifyer list unless they semi-tailor to beat it. (ie: remove all combat units but Meganobz and bring out the max Shootas & Lootas to dakka them.)

So Orkz will get pasted by a tailored list, known to beat them unless they tailor a list to counter it?
Excuse me while I think that's perfectly fine.

To be fair, everyone will get pasted by a tailored list specifically made to kill them unless they counter pick it.

 Purifier wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:
Orks will still get routinely pasted by a Purifyer list unless they semi-tailor to beat it. (ie: remove all combat units but Meganobz and bring out the max Shootas & Lootas to dakka them.)

So Orkz will get pasted by a tailored list, known to beat them unless they tailor a list to counter it?
Excuse me while I think that's perfectly fine.

Except for the fact that just playing Purifyers isn't really list tailoring, just hidieously over-the-top vs Hordes for no real reason other than the codex author doesn't give three craps for external game balance.
Otherwise you can argue that every single GK player has automatically list tailored to destroy Daemons.

I highly doubt the majority of Ork & Tyranid players would really complain about Purifyers, (and by extention an entire army of them), being OP vs them if 'Winning' Flame only hit those models in base-to-base instead of being able to have 1 grunt auto-hit 30+ models.

 Purifier wrote:
This looks like one of those threads we used to see on the World of Warcraft forums, right after someone got their gonads handed to them in a small paper bag.

"WHY ARE [enter class here] SO OP!?"

The reason I ask is because I'm considering using the GK codex. Tbh, I've never actually played against them.

GK vs daemons is rock v scissors...

the rock to GK's scissors is eldar, rolling tests on 3d6 is awfull, and plenty of general SM builds or chaos:sm builds absolutely OWN GK's

(baleflamers kill 20+ point GKs as easily as 16pt SM's, and lots of chaos SM has pref enemy against me, but not i against them)

not even close to OP codex

it has many different builds in it that are competitive, but not OP, dont let people tell you it is and dissuede you from playing a gk army.

people will complain about any unit that is good against what they bring (i play orks, guard, and GK, i used to play nids when I play orks I hate purifiers, when i play my Gk I hate ork bikers cause they are so OP) at 24pts bare bones, having an ability that might not even go off, and has a chance to kill our own models, and is situationally usefull, and then only in HtH... you may as well complain how OP daemon princes are because you are throwing normal orks that cant beat them in HtH at them and expecting to win

You hate Ork Bikers with grey Knights? Seriously? Your terminators kick the Bikers asses.

The GK codex hasn't been stupidly strong since 6th dropped. It's top teir, but so are other codices.

Rock paper scissors match ups =/= cheese. That's just poor game design and something completely different. Also with the change whereby the entire daemons codex doesn't require deep strike means that the match up has certainly shifted towards balance.

The GK codex is strong, but there isn't any cheese. Not since 6th edition came out.

Its not so much that the codex has overpowered stuff, its that it doesn't really have anything that is weak. It has excellent internal balance and decent external balance.


A pure GK list, only way to play IMO, has some notable weaknesses.

1) Anti-tank is almost exclusively the Psycannon which has only a 24" range. And for AV14 the only really reliable way to kill it is to use Daemonhammers or Dreadknights in melee.

2) Almost all shooting is 24", there is almost a complete absence of anything longer than that. With Psyfleman Dreadnoughts and Vindicare assassins being about the only thing available.

3) Units are more expensive than vanilla equivalents with no increase in durability. A 26 point Purifier has the same defensive stats as a 16 point tactical marine. This gives them a body count disadvantage meaning they are more fragile.

Waaaghpower wrote:
You hate Ork Bikers with grey Knights? Seriously? Your terminators kick the Bikers asses.

you are either assuming I take terminators in a TAC list and can list tailor terminators in specifically for that purpose, then they could just be kited/avoided by bikers, the termies have less shooting per pt then there PAGK bretheren as well,

the point is units like bikers, purifiers, all counter something, and all have their counters,

that isnt cheese, thats meeting the rock to your scissors

like grey said above, total lack of decent shooting anti armour 14, or +24" range save for psyflemen and the horribly expensive assasin,

same durability as other marines that cost 25% less ect

plenty of downsides you have to overcome with GK's, just like other armies

I would say the state we have now, no codex, not even necrons anymore, are OP,

its just that the old out of date codexes are just too out of date and old now.

 TheCrazyCryptek wrote:
Cheese is the age old battle cry of the unprepared.

Read the enemies codex, know what he can do, know your own strengths and weaknesses and plan accordingly.

With the exception of players playing the older codexes(Eldar, Orks and SOB). If you find yourself getting stomped by Grey Knights constantly, it is your own fault.

I will say, however that players playing as Dark Eldar and Demons shouldn't feel bad about losing. DE or Demons vs GK is a tough match up.

Yup. My friend accuses the GK's of cheese because according to him, the base troops are Toughness, Strength, BS and WS 5. 2+ Armor and Invulnerable save as well.

they are also 12 feet tall and shoot lightning bolts out their arses

easysauce wrote:
they are also 12 feet tall and shoot lightning bolts out their arses

Thats Space Wolves silly

O hai, this thread. Wasn't aware it has been a month already.

GK are hardly OP and certainly aren't cheese at this point. You missed your chance for legit discussion on this topic by not posting it in 5th edition.

Lots of stuff isn't. It's easier to say what is:

3 dreadknights with teleporters and flamers
dragio wing
assassin spam
triple stormravens

Oh look that's all that's cheese.

Really? Draigo wing is cheese? I guess if you don't bring any str:10 ap:2, but who doesn't have some of that? Or at least enough shooting to drown them in 2+ saves.

Out of the things you listed, the only one even close to cheese is Assassin spam - assuming you mean DCA. Even then any sort of death star is countered by good list building. 3 Dreadknights is only cheesy if you bring them as part of Draigo wing to make them scoring. Again, there are plenty of hard counters.

GK are good, but they're not over powered. They have weaknesses that are rather easy to exploit.

 juraigamer wrote:
Lots of stuff isn't. It's easier to say what is:

3 dreadknights with teleporters and flamers
dragio wing
assassin spam
triple stormravens

Oh look that's all that's cheese.

Draigowing lololol, sorry, I've beaten the wing too many times with a guardian based eldar army to even come close to thinking that it's OP.
On the other hand, I used to run 80 guardians with warlocks for cover saves, so losing a couple didn't really phase me.


Basics on any army, if you shoot it enough, it will die.

 Griddlelol wrote:
The GK codex hasn't been stupidly strong since 6th dropped. It's top teir, but so are other codices.

Rock paper scissors match ups =/= cheese. That's just poor game design and something completely different. Also with the change whereby the entire daemons codex doesn't require deep strike means that the match up has certainly shifted towards balance.

The proper deployment rules simply means Daemon player get to actually play a turn or two!

I think alot of the cries of OP/cheese also stem from the fact that when you face a bad match-up vs GK's, it's not so much a simple case of Rock to your Scissors, but tends to feel more like Diamond vs Kindergarten-Safety-Scissors!
On the other hand, while GK's have their bad match-ups, (ie; vs Rune Priest spam or Runes of Win), they can still fight on and give a really good/close game. But Tyranids vs all those Force weapons + psycannons/storm bolters? Or Daemons vs GK's in general? Or Orks vs Purifyer Crowewing? etc... It's just not fun at all because the game shifts from being an underdog to feeling like you're trying to climb a mountain while draging a 20-tonne safe behind you!

Waaaghpower wrote:
Actually, I play Orks and I've beaten Grey Knights repeatedly, CrazyCryptik.
Still, Grey Knights are only so good. They can get ridiculous and OP in certain cases, but they are beatable by denying them any chance to use their cheese.

And that's awesome!

I didn't say they are impossible for Orks to beat, its just difficult to do against a good GK player.

You know what, it also means that when you beat GK with your Orks, that win means a little more than normal because you where at an disadvantage from a purely codex point of view.