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So, specialist games are now dead, probably in an effort to be "financially responsible" and show a commitment to "aggressively cutting costs" and "focusing on core products" keep the shareholders satisfied for a bit longer. But we all know that this doesn't change the fundamental problems with GW's current situation (the Hobbit disaster, stagnant sales volume, profits dependent on constant and unsustainable price increases, growing competition, etc), and in fact probably makes it worse in the long run since they have fewer products to sell (especially compared to re-launching the games with proper support). So the cuts will inevitably continue, and the only question is what will be sacrificed next in the name of profit. Options:

Warhammer World: having an open HQ with tons of gaming space and awesome events is a nice prestige thing, but it can't possibly be a net profit for GW and only a tiny minority of their customers will ever go there. Even WotC couldn't keep their gaming HQ profitable and had to close it, and I doubt GW is doing any better. Closing Warhammer World (and moving GW into a more modest office space) cuts expenses without a noticeable impact for most of their customers, so it's win/win.

White Dwarf: seriously, does anyone use this magazine for anything but toilet paper? It would be a miracle if White Dwarf manages to break even, and the few remaining subscribers are the ultimate hardcore fans who will spend their subscription money on different GW products even if they lose their magazine. And really, at this point it would just be putting it out of its misery.

Forge World: unlike Warhammer World they probably make a net profit, but in this difficult economy can a responsible company justify employing all those people to make prestige products when they could be working on more plastic space marine kits with a much higher profit margin? Plus, FW has a habit of doing awful things like marketing and previews, and that makes GW management look bad.

Black Library: probably safe since sales are great, books are a safe and predictable industry, and it gets GW's brand into mainstream stores. On the other hand, does GW really want to let you get into their world with a mere $10 novel? And think of how many space marines you could buy and build in the time it takes you to read that novel...

LotR/Hobbit: if GW is going to cut a core product, the choice is pretty obvious: the movie was a complete disappointment, the game isn't selling, and any profits are probably going straight into license fees. Really, the only reason to keep the game is if the license included a commitment to keep it in production for a certain amount of time.

40k army: yes, 40k is GW's biggest product, but not all armies are equal. BT couldn't even get a mention in the core rulebook, but on the other hand they're space marines so all they really need is a single upgrade sprue and a $10 increase in the price of the box. Meanwhile poor SoB have been neglected so badly someone in GW management is probably going to be surprised that they haven't actually been dropped yet, making them a pretty obvious target.

WHFB army: sales aren't all that great, there's tons of competition for the fantasy market, and really how many armies do you need for one game? Get rid of one of the ones that doesn't have space marines and save some shelf space.

Lawyers: the Chapterhouse case is unintentional comedy, and surely someone has to ask why they're paying obscene hourly rates to sue random authors into submission and make "GW SUCKS" the headline of every geek website. Really the only question here is whether the lawyers should be fired, or if GW should spend a bit extra and execute them for their failures.

Other: did I miss something that GW can cut?

None of the above: WOTC buys them first: the vultures are circling, and GW's stock price could collapse at any moment. So there's still hope that someone a little more competent buys GW and has the sense to see GW's neglected products as an opportunity to exploit instead of an expense to cut.

None of the above: GW goes bankrupt first: the vultures are circling, but why deal with buying the dead weight of GW's management and retail stores when you can wait a bit longer, let them collapse completely, and buy the IP at bargain prices? Meanwhile GW's management will be too busy giving themselves generous retirement packages to deal with pesky little details like running the company and everyone will continue business as usual right up until the end.

Black Library and Forge World are safe. The HH releases seem to be a cash cow for them right now. I'm not happy with their Hardback-Trade-MMPB release schedule from Black Library, but if it makes them money, so be it.

OTHER: Hobby centers that aren't making money, specifically ones in high rent locations (malls) that can't stay open late (gamers like to play late). They've done a lot of this in the last 3-4 years. It's a shame that they've also been closing the larger stores that actually have play space in the states. Ah, well.

Specialist Games are now gone?

And do we know that The Hobbit was a "disaster"?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Specialist Games are now gone?

See here bud

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Specialist Games are now gone?

And do we know that The Hobbit was a "disaster"?

Yep. GW's trend of coming up with the best possible plan and then doing the exact opposite continues: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/524134.page

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
And do we know that The Hobbit was a "disaster"?

Not confirmed since GW doesn't release sales numbers for individual products, but the movie was a financial disappointment (especially in long-term attention) and people who go to GW stores say the stuff is just sitting on the shelf collecting dust. Not surprisingly given the fact that the models are mediocre and insanely expensive, and GW's marketing has gone from minimal to nonexistent. GW even has plenty of the "limited edition" starter sets in stock. Meanwhile the license fees can't be cheap, so their profit margins on what little they do manage to sell can't be very good.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

And do we know that The Hobbit was a "disaster"?

I certainly don't know either way, but I've never seen it played.

Edit: Also, the 3 FLGS that are close to my home don't carry it, but do carry a lot of 40k, WH Fantasy, Warma-Hordes, and card games. But no Hobbit.

I had been meaning to get the Repulsive for use in my imperial fleet for a long long time. Should have just bought it when I thought about it.


It's always been my favorite ship.





And the Rogue Trader cruiser is gone as well...


sad times.

I'd say LOTR goes (along with Warhammer World). GW likes to collect money from license fees, not pay them.

Given what's happening with the various Games Days -- including the UK from what I hear -- I wouldn't be too surprised if they disappear entirely in the next few years.

To be replaced by more "exclusive" events like the various BL and FW days, and the forthcoming 40K open day.


.. But fret not, because this will be great news.

Whether you like it or not.

Our throats, as we sleep and dream of better days.

I'd be surprised if GW wasn't contractually obligated to produce/stock hobbit stuff for as long as the movie trilogy was being marketed. Following that thought, warhammer world or a bankruptcy/buyout (the former causing the latter) seem like the most likely outcomes.

I would say out of all of those, White Dwarf probably is the least valuable but they will maintain that as a loss IMHO. Black Library seems Self Sufficient.

Hobbit will happen regardless of success.

I think Warhammer Fantasy is next on the chopping block.

nkelsch wrote:

I think Warhammer Fantasy is next on the chopping block.

Woah, wait, what?

If that's a serious prediction, would you mind giving your reasoning behind it?

nkelsch wrote:

I think Warhammer Fantasy is next on the chopping block.

Are sales that bad? Product at my FLGSs seem to be moving, although I've never seen it played.

nkelsch wrote:
I think Warhammer Fantasy is next on the chopping block.

Trimming low-selling models/armies, or killing it off completely?

Which brings up the question of whether GW could even survive completely killing off WHFB. Despite all of its problems losing their oldest core product line can't be good for shareholder confidence. Would dropping WHFB (or even making serious cuts) be seen as an admission of how bad GW's financial situation is and trigger a crash in their stock value (hopefully followed by another company buying the remains of GW)?

nkelsch wrote:
I would say out of all of those, White Dwarf probably is the least valuable but they will maintain that as a loss IMHO. Black Library seems Self Sufficient.

Hobbit will happen regardless of success.

I think Warhammer Fantasy is next on the chopping block.

You're crazy if you think GW is going to cut Warhammer Fantasy, I would LOVE to hear what kind of mushrooms you are chowing down.


Fantasy is really big in my area not so much 40k. Fantasy makes more money when building a army, you need more models more stuff.

Trimming some of the less popular armies, maybe.

Doesn't look good for Sisters, right?

 infinite_array wrote:
If that's a serious prediction, would you mind giving your reasoning behind it?

Probably the same as 40k's problems but worse. Same stagnant/declining sales problems if not worse, a community that is even less happy with the rules than 40k's players, and a lot more competing games in the fantasy genre. None of the independent stores around here even bother to host WHFB nights, and I've never seen anyone playing it or even buying models.

 Peregrine wrote:

 infinite_array wrote:
If that's a serious prediction, would you mind giving your reasoning behind it?

Probably the same as 40k's problems but worse. Same stagnant/declining sales problems if not worse, a community that is even less happy with the rules than 40k's players, and a lot more competing games in the fantasy genre. None of the independent stores around here even bother to host WHFB nights, and I've never seen anyone playing it or even buying models.

From personal experience a lot of fantasy players play in house.

We have two pretty healthly leagues in my area, one of which boasts about 25 players.

The LOTR/Hobbit Line isn't going anywhere for at least 3 years.

Black Library & Forge World aren't going anywhere.

Specialists Games SHOULD have been the first things to go, and it should have happened a while ago. Despite the clamoring on here, I can't imagine there's any "real" life in those games that's driving that many people to purchase more items. I just don't believe it. Couple that with the fact that GW has very successfully licensed the brands to Fantasy Flight, and there's no reason for them to maintain an in house "specialists games" department. Let FFG market them as board games, and, if anything, partner with them on any that may require plastic 28mm models.

Getting rid of SKUs that don't sell is no different than any other business. Keeping them around for the 3 people that are making purchases doesn't make sense.

 cincydooley wrote:
Getting rid of SKUs that don't sell is no different than any other business. Keeping them around for the 3 people that are making purchases doesn't make sense.

No, what doesn't make sense is killing off a potentially valuable product instead of supporting it properly. It's really not a surprise that sales are bad when the specialist games aren't sold in GW's retail stores (and in fact are banned from open gaming in GW stores), don't ever get any new releases, don't get any space in WD or their "blog" (the only "marketing" GW bothers to do), aren't available to independent stores, and are buried in an easily-ignored corner of GW's website where you have to already know about them and go looking to find anything. Even the few people who are somehow able to get interested in them can see the obvious state of neglect and poor chances of enjoying the same hobby experience as the 40k players, so you're left with the few hardcore fans who are willing to put up with GW doing everything they can to avoid having to sell models and make money.

On the other hand, consider the alternative where GW puts the Hobbit game out of its misery and brings back the specialist games as well-supported products and actually gives people a reason to buy them instead of trying as hard as possible to drive away potential customers.

 cincydooley wrote:
We have two pretty healthly leagues in my area, one of which boasts about 25 players.

The LOTR/Hobbit Line isn't going anywhere for at least 3 years.

Black Library & Forge World aren't going anywhere.

Specialists Games SHOULD have been the first things to go, and it should have happened a while ago. Despite the clamoring on here, I can't imagine there's any "real" life in those games that's driving that many people to purchase more items. I just don't believe it. Couple that with the fact that GW has very successfully licensed the brands to Fantasy Flight, and there's no reason for them to maintain an in house "specialists games" department. Let FFG market them as board games, and, if anything, partner with them on any that may require plastic 28mm models.

Getting rid of SKUs that don't sell is no different than any other business. Keeping them around for the 3 people that are making purchases doesn't make sense.

The only reason there would be any disparity between the reaction here and IRL would be down to the fact that one has to take one's wargaming seriously enough to join a forum and probably have some years of service under one's belt to have even a vague idea what they're about, to anyone else they're just a weird tab on the main GW page that isn't 40K or Fantasy.

I would suggest, given the right support, that many new players would have the same affection and enthusiasm for the specialist games as the vets, and in fact, they are an ideal, accessible gateway product that GW, in its ineptitude, has left to rot while totally undervaluing their potential.

Warhammer World isn't going anywhere. I can't imagine that it'd be economically viable to redesign the whole complex into offices. I could see them charging for entry maybe, or charging to use the tables, but as of getting rid of the whole thing? Nope.

Forge World and Black Library are safe IMO, the HH products have been very popular it'd be a surprise if they were shut down (although this is GW we're talking about...

WHFB/40K: Definitely not; these are the cornerstones of the company. I'd reckon dropping these would be akin to corporate suicide.

White Dwarf: I can see this failing in the future, but as it stands it's the company's primary form of advertising to non-players. Despite the failure the mag is, it'd ultimately damage the company to drop it.

LoTR/Hobbit, possibly. It's clear that the Hobbit fell far below expectations (local GW has over a dozen Ltd Ed copies of the Hobbit still in stock.) Never seen anyone play Hobbit yet, or even LoTR in a good few years. If something was to hit the chopping block, it'd be this.

Lawyers: Of course not, everyone knows how good amd fair GW's lawyers are ¬¬

 Peregrine wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
Getting rid of SKUs that don't sell is no different than any other business. Keeping them around for the 3 people that are making purchases doesn't make sense.

No, what doesn't make sense is killing off a potentially valuable product instead of supporting it properly. It's really not a surprise that sales are bad when the specialist games aren't sold in GW's retail stores (and in fact are banned from open gaming in GW stores), don't ever get any new releases, don't get any space in WD or their "blog" (the only "marketing" GW bothers to do), aren't available to independent stores, and are buried in an easily-ignored corner of GW's website where you have to already know about them and go looking to find anything. Even the few people who are somehow able to get interested in them can see the obvious state of neglect and poor chances of enjoying the same hobby experience as the 40k players, so you're left with the few hardcore fans who are willing to put up with GW doing everything they can to avoid having to sell models and make money.

On the other hand, consider the alternative where GW puts the Hobbit game out of its misery and brings back the specialist games as well-supported products and actually gives people a reason to buy them instead of trying as hard as possible to drive away potential customers.

Again, pure speculation, but I'd wager their contract with New Line for the Hobbit/LoTR has made them far more money than a fully supported specialist line would have during the same time period. Pure speculation, of course.

There's a few problems with reintroducing the Specialist lines:

1. Many of them require cardboard manufacturing, something GW doesn't do in house. As they like to be insular in their manufacturing, they'd either need to learn how to do this (and spend the money to do so) or outsource it, which we've already seen they're not fond of.

2. It would require multiple FTE to sustain the businesses for support, development, and product creation. Conservatively, their developers/sculptors, etc, are making what, $45k-$60k a year, depending on experience? Is the line going to make enough money to sustain keeping $150K-$180K of salary on the books? I have no idea.

Those reasons are why I think the FFG partership is perfect for those lines. It would be MUCH easier for GW to simply develop and print 28MM plastic sprues and then send them to FFG, who would handle all of the paper products, actual game development, and support of said games. Personally, I think that would be a win-win for both parties, but then again, I'm also the fool that thinks GW could make a killing if they partnered with JINX and allowed them to make licensed apparel. So what do I know?

 reds8n wrote:
Given what's happening with the various Games Days -- including the UK from what I hear -- I wouldn't be too surprised if they disappear entirely in the next few years.

To be replaced by more "exclusive" events like the various BL and FW days, and the forthcoming 40K open day.


.. But fret not, because this will be great news.

Whether you like it or not.

That was my first thought (albeit with less wit), so I'd imagine Games Days and then WD would be the next to go...

I am just saying, of what is 'left to cut' and what they won't cut... If they had to choose between Fantasy and 40k, I feel like 40k Would win out.

It already seems like the 40k release schedule already doubles the output of fantasy and the 40k event sizes for indy and official double fantasy.

I don't think it will happen, but if things became dire, It feels like Fantasy would lose support over 40k.

I'd say they drop some armies e.g. Sisters, BT and stuff, maybe Wood Elves or fusing them with Bretonnia.

Their core systems are there to stay. Yes, 8th made WHFB a lot less popular and played, but it still is their second core game.

This really sucks..... do you think maybe its a ploy to get everyone to buy the models they always said they wanted but never got around to? I have several, and I'm sure most people do. Maybe its all an evil ploy to get us to buy, and then they will change their minds.

You know, like how they print more "limited" edition stuff shortly after they promise they won't?

It makes no sense to me, lots of people still play them, and I always intended to take Necromunda up one of these days, why on earth would they gak can it all?

 Sigvatr wrote:
I'd say they drop some armies e.g. Sisters, BT and stuff, maybe Wood Elves or fusing them with Bretonnia.

Their core systems are there to stay. Yes, 8th made WHFB a lot less popular and played, but it still is their second core game.

is it really that much less popular. I can only gague by my local meta and Adepticon, but it seems just as popular, if not moreso, than 7th was.....

WHFB Team Tournament entries continue to go up...

 Earthbeard wrote:
Our throats, as we sleep and dream of better days.

This genuinely made me laugh have an exalt