UK prison reform - Any perspectives?

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**Mr. Burning**

The BBC article:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22341867

For the work blocked/lazy

Male prisoners in England and Wales must work harder for privileges such as TVs in cells, the government has said.

Inmates will be made to wear a uniform during their first two weeks in jail and their access to private cash to call home will be restricted.

Satellite and cable TV channels, currently available in some private prisons, will be banned altogether.

The Prison Reform Trust said "getting rid of tellies" was not going to cut reconviction rates.

But Justice Secretary Chris Grayling said: "I want the arrival in prison for the first time to be an experience that is not one they'd want to repeat.

"That means an environment where they arrive [where] standards are pretty basic and then they start to gain extras by contributing... and if they won't do it, then they can't expect to start gaining those privileges."
There are currently three levels of privileges available to prisoners - basic, standard and enhanced. Currently all inmates must be placed initially on the middle tier when they enter prison.

This allows them to wear own clothes, have a TV in their cell and gives them more family visits, access to private cash and potential to earn more from prison jobs than those who are moved to basic level for poor behaviour.

However, from November, all prisoners will spend their first two weeks on a new "entry" level, which more closely resembles the basic standard currently in place.

Their behaviour will be reviewed after two weeks and they will either stay at the basic level or move up to the standard level.

Other changes to the Incentives and Earned Privileges (IEP) schemes from November will include:

A longer working day for prisoners
A ban on films with an 18 certificate
Extra gym time being dependent "on active engagement with rehabilitation"
The Ministry of Justice said it would also strengthen prisons' powers to recover money from inmates who cause damage.

When the new system is introduced, existing prisoners will not lose the privileges they already have unless their status is reviewed - other than the loss of the cable and satellite TV service available in some private prisons.

Officials are still working on possible changes to the privilege scheme for female prisoners.

Ben Gunn, who spent 32 years in prison for murder, told the BBC Mr Grayling was putting newly incarcerated people at risk.
"To actually bring people into prison and in their first two weeks, when they are at their most vulnerable and prone to suicide and self-harm, to then throw them in uniform so they're marked out from the rest of the population and restrict the money they can spend to phone home to talk to friends, family and lawyers is just absurd.

"It's positively harmful."

Abdulla Choudhury, who was released in 2011 after serving 13 years in prison, agreed vulnerable prisoners could become targets for bullies.

He rejected the notion that prison life was easy and said those with less opportunity to earn money working in prison were more likely to sell drugs.

Mr Choudhury, who now works with young offenders for charity User Voice, also questioned the timing of the government's announcement, saying: "They should focus more on training so prisoners can get jobs when they leave prison."

Noel "Razor" Smith, who was in prison for 33 years and is now a writer, said putting TVs into prisoners' cells actually helped reduce violence in prisons, because it gave inmates who could not read or write a way to occupy their time.

"You would think he [Mr Grayling] would start on drugs if anything," Mr Smith said. "It's easier to buy heroin on prison landings than on the streets."

But Max Chambers, from the right-leaning Policy Exchange think tank, said the moves were "exactly what taxpayers would expect from our prison system" and would improve behaviour in jails.

Prison Reform Trust director Juliet Lyon said it was "perfectly reasonable" to remove subscription TV channels but there was no evidence to suggest that a "so-called tough approach" would improve rehabilitation.

"But, to be more effective, you have to focus on employment and skills training, on making sure people have safe housing to go to and that they have good contact with their family."

The Howard League for Penal Reform, meanwhile, said it was "bizarre" to introduce "new layers of red tape which will only add to the cost of prison and demands on staff time".

"It is also astounding that the justice secretary spends his time policing what prisoners watch on DVD, to the point that Scary Movie 2 or series three of The Inbetweeners will be banned," chief executive Frances Crook said.

Yvette Cooper: "You get a big announcement but the reality doesn't stack up"
"Instead, Chris Grayling should look at taking our prison population back to a manageable level - giving non-violent people community sentences so something productive can be done with those who remain in prison."

Last month, MSPs warned that prisoners in Scotland's jails were spending too much time watching TV instead of taking part in activities to cut reoffending.

To me this is just the usual attempt at being tough and politicking without any real concern for the system itself.

**Mr Hyena**

The UK Prison system is extremely, extremely soft so its very much due for some reform.

**djones520**

Wear their own clothes? Sounds like your prison system is better then basic training.

**Mr. Burning**

Mr Hyena wrote:
The UK Prison system is extremely, extremely soft so its very much due for some reform.

I have what you might call first hand experience, at two sites. Believe me, the system is not soft.

**Steve steveson**

Pointless politicking. If they had any real want to reform going tough is completly the wrong direction. All evidence shows having "tough" prisons dose nothing to stop crime or reoffending and often has the exact opposite effect.

**Mr. Burning**

Steve steveson wrote:
Pointless politicking. If they had any real want to reform going tough is completly the wrong direction. All evidence shows having "tough" prisons dose nothing to stop crime or reoffending and often has the exact opposite effect.

One of the very real problems that faces the estate and the home office is the lack of interest from prison officers in changing. Many are still of a mind of just being 'turn keys' (a term they despise with venom!). Whilst there are some pretty decent officers out there many are still trapped within a mindset that sees work and education as a waste of time.

Governors are often the same, i would say that cuts are responsible for a wayward attitude in response to getting prisooners into work or forms of education or meaningful activity.

There are always going to be recidivists within the system, repeat offenders and yes, there are those who treat prison like a big holiday but the vast majority of offenders want help, which they cannot get access too, even though it should be provided.

**LuciusAR**

I've no real experience of prisons, but as far as I'm concerned the model we should be following is the one that results in the lowest rates of re-offending. That’s just common sense surley?

I seem to recall reading somewhere that the prisons with the lowest re-offending rates where the Norwegian ones that are downright luxurious by most standards. Though it debatable if that’s the only factor.

**Mr. Burning**

LuciusAR wrote:
I've no real experience of prisons, but as far as I'm concerned the model we should be following is the one that results in the lowest rates of re-offending. That’s just common sense surley?

I seem to recall reading somewhere that the prisons with the lowest re-offending rates where the Norwegian ones that are downright luxurious by most standards. Though it debatable if that’s the only factor.

Luxury is a pretty subjective term when it comes to offenders and prisons. But yeah, positive approaches reap benefits.

**Jihadin**

M.E. and Asia don't really kid around with prison or dealing out justice.....

**FM Ninja 048**

You get to wear your own clothes in prision?

I did not know that

Noel "Razor" Smith, who was in prison for 33 years and is now a writer, said putting TVs into prisoners' cells actually helped reduce violence in prisons, because it gave inmates who could not read or write a way to occupy their time.

that time watching TV could be spent learning to read/write?

how do they expect to cut re-offending when they go in illiterate, watch TV all day, then come out illiterate. Get them all at least end of primary education reading/writing skills then they can do council jobs like dustbin men, cutting down trees etc.

**Jihadin**

That makes to much sense Ninja....and who would pay for their education....and who would volunteer to teach them.....

**Mr. Burning**

FM Ninja 048 wrote:
You get to wear your own clothes in prision?

I did not know that

Noel "Razor" Smith, who was in prison for 33 years and is now a writer, said putting TVs into prisoners' cells actually helped reduce violence in prisons, because it gave inmates who could not read or write a way to occupy their time.

that time watching TV could be spent learning to read/write?

how do they expect to cut re-offending when they go in illiterate, watch TV all day, then come out illiterate. Get them all at least end of primary education reading/writing skills then they can do council jobs like dustbin men, cutting down trees etc.

There are educational programmes run by and on behalf of the prison service. Most are either over subscribed or poorly run.

Access to libraries is also available, again, that access is determined by the quality of staff.

Yes, some offenders to not give a gak, but then, they get to spend an extra 6 hours a day in their cells. Even if they are forced to attend you cannot force anyone to do the work set. Nor are educational staff expected to force them.

**FM Ninja 048**

Jihadin wrote:
That makes to much sense Ninja....and who would pay for their education....and who would volunteer to teach them.....

I'd volunteer to teach them If I had too, but I'm sure you could fine somebody

And I'm sure people would be a-lot more accepting of paying £90,000(random figure) on teachers for prisoners than £90,000 on TVs for prisoners

**Jihadin**

Wait...your system pays for the prisoners TV's?

**Mr Hyena**

Mr. Burning wrote:
Mr Hyena wrote:
The UK Prison system is extremely, extremely soft so its very much due for some reform.

I have what you might call first hand experience, at two sites. Believe me, the system is not soft.

Sky TV, warm beds and ps3s is not soft?

**FM Ninja 048**

Jihadin wrote:
Wait...your system pays for the prisoners TV's?

I presume so, I'm not that knowledgeable about the prison system, but I presume state run prision = tax bought tvs

**MrDwhitey**

Mr Hyena wrote:
Mr. Burning wrote:
Mr Hyena wrote:
The UK Prison system is extremely, extremely soft so its very much due for some reform.

I have what you might call first hand experience, at two sites. Believe me, the system is not soft.

Sky TV, warm beds and ps3s is not soft?

Indeed, every single prison cell is such as this.

The warm beds comment is absurd though.

**whembly**

MrDwhitey wrote:
Mr Hyena wrote:
Mr. Burning wrote:
Mr Hyena wrote:
The UK Prison system is extremely, extremely soft so its very much due for some reform.

I have what you might call first hand experience, at two sites. Believe me, the system is not soft.

Sky TV, warm beds and ps3s is not soft?

Indeed, every single prison cell is such as this.

The warm beds comment is absurd though.

Wait a minute... I thought they were joking?

Prisoners in the UK has their own Cable TV and ps3s? How is that any different than the teenagers these days? o.O

**azazel the cat**

whembly wrote:
MrDwhitey wrote:
Mr Hyena wrote:
Mr. Burning wrote:
Mr Hyena wrote:
The UK Prison system is extremely, extremely soft so its very much due for some reform.

I have what you might call first hand experience, at two sites. Believe me, the system is not soft.

Sky TV, warm beds and ps3s is not soft?

Indeed, every single prison cell is such as this.

The warm beds comment is absurd though.

Wait a minute... I thought they were joking?

Prisoners in the UK has their own Cable TV and ps3s? How is that any different than the teenagers these days? o.O

Well, there's a lot more rape.
(or less rape, depending on if you're a teenager from Stubenville)

ba-dum-tsh!

**Mr. Burning**

MrDwhitey wrote:
Mr Hyena wrote:
Mr. Burning wrote:
Mr Hyena wrote:
The UK Prison system is extremely, extremely soft so its very much due for some reform.

I have what you might call first hand experience, at two sites. Believe me, the system is not soft.

Sky TV, warm beds and ps3s is not soft?

Indeed, every single prison cell is such as this.

The warm beds comment is absurd though.

Ah the luxury of toilet next to the head of your bed, with nothing but a manky old screen (if you are lucky), next to the sink where you wash your own plastic cutlery. Truly, it is luxury beyond compare. Crapping in front of a cell mate, priceless.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

FM Ninja 048 wrote:
Jihadin wrote:
Wait...your system pays for the prisoners TV's?

I presume so, I'm not that knowledgeable about the prison system, but I presume state run prision = tax bought tvs

Prisoners pay for the privilege of having TV in their cells.

**Frazzled**

Is Soylent Green an option?

**whembly**

Frazzled wrote:
Is Soylent Green an option?

Nutraloaf:

**Frazzled**

DEAR GOD YOU'RE MAKING THEM EAT WIENER DOG PUKE? YOU BASTARDS!!!!

**dæl**

This is just Chris Grayling up to his usual tricks, doesn't listen to evidence or expert advice just comes up with whatever spiteful thing comes into his head and runs with it. The man's a bully, and due to people being less sympathetic to prisoners he has a job he can get away with it in.

The man has a history of pretty horrible behaviour, faking statistics when he was shadow home secretary, an expenses scandal regarding a second home when he already had a house in London, as employment minister he consistently lied about government schemes and then had documents taken down which contradicted him by telling the truth, and most recently he has told probation staff that they face disciplinary action if they complain on twitter about the fact he is outsourcing 70% of their work to private companies. Because we know from the thread on the judge being sent down that nothing could possibly go wrong with privatising the justice system.

**Mr Hyena**

and due to people being less sympathetic to prisoners

I wonder why.

**dæl**

Mr Hyena wrote:
and due to people being less sympathetic to prisoners

I wonder why.

I should imagine that it's because they seem to think all prisoners are equally wrong, but you see there is a difference between committing violent or sexual crime, and for example being caught in possession of drugs. There are over 10,000 people in prison on drugs offences, which is higher than sexual crime or burglary. There are also a vast number of people in prison who absolutely shouldn't be, the mentally ill. It's ignorant in the extreme to think of every prisoner as Myra Hindley or Jon Venables.

**Orlanth**

Mr. Burning wrote:

Ah the luxury of toilet next to the head of your bed, with nothing but a manky old screen (if you are lucky), next to the sink where you wash your own plastic cutlery. Truly, it is luxury beyond compare. Crapping in front of a cell mate, priceless.

What you are actually pointing out is the gross discrepancy between certain UK prisons. Some are grimdark Victorian hellholes, others have the 'Butlins' reputation. Also prison warders and civil servants vary from the dour stony types to the touchy feely 'criminals-are-the-victims' types.

I don't disbelieve your testimony Mr. Burning, but there is plenty of room for the overly soft system prisons to have developed elsewhere.

**Jihadin**

So does the UK gov't buy the TV or dothe prisoners use their own funds?

**SilverMK2**

LuciusAR wrote:
the model we should be following is the one that results in the lowest rates of re-offending.

So some kind of bolt to the head as soon as the prisoner walks through the door like we have with abattoirs?

**dæl**

Jihadin wrote:
So does the UK gov't buy the TV or dothe prisoners use their own funds?

A Prison Service spokesperson said: "In-cell televisions are funded by prisoners from rental payments.

"They can only watch free to air digital channels on small televisions. Individual prisons decide which channels are available and ensure they are suitable for viewing in a prison.

"Access to televisions is a condition of good behaviour. TVs can and will be removed from prisoners whose behaviour becomes unacceptable."

From here