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I'm bouncing back and forth between what army I'd like to start building when I get back stateside, and one of my ideas was a sneaky kind of all goblin list. Before I put a huge amount of thought into it, I wanted to see how effective such an army would be.

Anything goblin is fair game, and I'm not above a bit of other stuff as well, just as long as it's all about dirty tricks. Skulkers, Night Goblin tricks, goblin wizards, so on and so forth.

I figure my goal is to swamp my opponent in bodies, use something like wolves for flank charges, and depend on my dirty tricks to ruin my opponent's battle plan as much as possible.

I'd like to avoid big old giant beasts if possible(no spiders or giants), though pretty much anything else is fair game.

If you play Warhammer and no abomination of it I would totally go for it. You have tarpits, who might carry fanatics, nasty skulkers who are ok vs low WS chars and you have manglers and squigs who can be your hammer. On top of that warmashines are dirt cheap too. If you are able to get squigs into the flank or even better the back of your opponents regiment and cast sneaky stabbin on them they will wreck havoc. Heroes are dirt cheap also and can spice up your stuff. Besides that well, care for those nasty spells who will eat chunks of your big blocks and make sure your morale wont break your back. Wolf chariots, pump wagons and wolf riders are awesome too so yes, go for it. It´s lots of fun once it´s all assembled and painted.

Is your anti-spider stance also putting you off spider riders?

Shamgi wrote:
I'm bouncing back and forth between what army I'd like to start building when I get back stateside, and one of my ideas was a sneaky kind of all goblin list. Before I put a huge amount of thought into it, I wanted to see how effective such an army would be.

Anything goblin is fair game, and I'm not above a bit of other stuff as well, just as long as it's all about dirty tricks. Skulkers, Night Goblin tricks, goblin wizards, so on and so forth.

I figure my goal is to swamp my opponent in bodies, use something like wolves for flank charges, and depend on my dirty tricks to ruin my opponent's battle plan as much as possible.

I'd like to avoid big old giant beasts if possible(no spiders or giants), though pretty much anything else is fair game.

NG bunkers (normal Goblins have no purpose), flanking Squig Herders or Squig Herder Hordes, 2 Stone Lobbaz, 2 Doom Divaz, 2 Manger Squigs, a few Snotling Pump Wagons, a lvl 2 mage + a few lvl 1 mages, Goblin Waaaaghboss General, Goblin Gargboss BSB with Banner of Discipline, 1-2 units of 5 wolf riders, 2 Goblin Wolf Chariots. That's it

Normal goblins have a purpose. They are the hammer. Actually, they bus the hammer.
Take great weapon heroes and skulkers.
Skulkers fill the front rank, characters with greatweapons go into the 2nd rank. Opponent swings and kills skulkers, then heroes step up and swing great weapons.
A goblin block with 6 or 9 S6 attacks (for ~100 points more), is the goblin hammer.

As for dirty tricks, goblins don't have a lot of them. What goblins do seem to be really good at is panicking and running away.

-Matt

 Sigvatr wrote:

Shamgi wrote:
I'm bouncing back and forth between what army I'd like to start building when I get back stateside, and one of my ideas was a sneaky kind of all goblin list. Before I put a huge amount of thought into it, I wanted to see how effective such an army would be.

Anything goblin is fair game, and I'm not above a bit of other stuff as well, just as long as it's all about dirty tricks. Skulkers, Night Goblin tricks, goblin wizards, so on and so forth.

I figure my goal is to swamp my opponent in bodies, use something like wolves for flank charges, and depend on my dirty tricks to ruin my opponent's battle plan as much as possible.

I'd like to avoid big old giant beasts if possible(no spiders or giants), though pretty much anything else is fair game.

NG bunkers (normal Goblins have no purpose), flanking Squig Herders or Squig Herder Hordes, 2 Stone Lobbaz, 2 Doom Divaz, 2 Manger Squigs, a few Snotling Pump Wagons, a lvl 2 mage + a few lvl 1 mages, Goblin Waaaaghboss General, Goblin Gargboss BSB with Banner of Discipline, 1-2 units of 5 wolf riders, 2 Goblin Wolf Chariots. That's it

You might explain, that you judge from another point of view. Common unrestricted Warhammer has more uses for goblins or at least it seems like plus it plays out a lot different from my experience.

 Gorbad wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

Shamgi wrote:
I'm bouncing back and forth between what army I'd like to start building when I get back stateside, and one of my ideas was a sneaky kind of all goblin list. Before I put a huge amount of thought into it, I wanted to see how effective such an army would be.

Anything goblin is fair game, and I'm not above a bit of other stuff as well, just as long as it's all about dirty tricks. Skulkers, Night Goblin tricks, goblin wizards, so on and so forth.

I figure my goal is to swamp my opponent in bodies, use something like wolves for flank charges, and depend on my dirty tricks to ruin my opponent's battle plan as much as possible.

I'd like to avoid big old giant beasts if possible(no spiders or giants), though pretty much anything else is fair game.

NG bunkers (normal Goblins have no purpose), flanking Squig Herders or Squig Herder Hordes, 2 Stone Lobbaz, 2 Doom Divaz, 2 Manger Squigs, a few Snotling Pump Wagons, a lvl 2 mage + a few lvl 1 mages, Goblin Waaaaghboss General, Goblin Gargboss BSB with Banner of Discipline, 1-2 units of 5 wolf riders, 2 Goblin Wolf Chariots. That's it

You might explain, that you judge from another point of view. Common unrestricted Warhammer has more uses for goblins or at least it seems like plus it plays out a lot different from my experience.

With all due respect, stop with those allusive posts. I am a lot more experienced than you both in un- and restriced comp and have been a TO for more than 2 years by now whereas you are relatively new to WHFB. If you got nothing to contribute but snarky comments, do us a favor and refrain from posting. Thanks.

Normal Goblins are, by all means, inferior to NG. By comparison, they simply have +1 LD but -1I. LD doesn't matter at all whereas having a higher I is a considerable advantage - not to mention NG are even 1 pt cheaper than regular Goblins and offer stuff like Fanatics and Nets. Plus they got Hatred (Dwarfs) which is situational but is a minor advantage Goblins cannot compensate.

So, I am interested in hearing the reasons why Goblins are more viable than NG. And point me to all the competitive goblin lists that use normal Goblins instead of NG. I'm eagerly waiting.

Your opinion does not matter at all to me. Random, unfunded opinions contribute nothing to a discussion. I got it down by numbers, you're free to disagree.

/e: Just saw that you're from Germany too - so in fact, you have never (!) played in a major tournament before. And now you're going to school me on tournaments? Step down.

Light armor and shield is better than shield. S4 attacks are pretty common, and rolling two saves of a 6 are better than rolling 1.

You won't find ANY competitive list that uses only goblins. Goblin leadership (both flavors) are so bad that the army plays better with at least 1 unit of orcs. Also, goblins inability to get a survivable magic banner means again, a unit of orcs makes the army better. It's Ld10 vs Ld7 or Ld8. If you want banner of discipline with goblins, you've got stick a naked BSB in the same unit as the general, which is not a good idea.

Finally, if you run massed goblin heroes, bunkered behind sneaky stabbas, you have a block that takes very few losses in combat (because you have to allocate attacks to 1 wound characters, with excess being lost), that gets a good number of high strength attacks after those 1 wound characters have attacked and been killed.

As far as experts go, you can both get off your horse. The O&G book has only been around for 3 years, and you're comparing how to tactically deal with armies that are sometimes just a few months old.
I've been playing warhammer for 5 editions now, but that doesn't make me any more of an expert than somebody who's played for 3 years.

What my experience has told me is that people who spout what a great expert they are usually (but not always) are speaking from a narrow and flawed point of view. It would be like me thinking that just because I lived in hawaii that I never traveled and that the only time comp comes up is in a tournament.

Thanks for the post, Matt. It's not about people disagreeing, it's about *who* disagrees *why*. You disagree because of being a vet, he disagrees out of spite. That's what gets me.

There are successful Goblin only lists though, iirc, a Goblin list recently won a bigger UK tournament. Not a really fair comparison though, given the fact they were very lucky and only faced WoC and Bretonnia which are a rather easy matchup for an army that has a lot of stuff that ignores or is very effective.

Goblins certainly aren't very competitive, but they are also underestimated. Their main flaw are Skaven - they do everything Goblins do, just better :(

HawaiiMatt wrote:

You won't find ANY competitive list that uses only goblins. Goblin leadership (both flavors) are so bad that the army plays better with at least 1 unit of orcs. Also, goblins inability to get a survivable magic banner means again, a unit of orcs makes the army better. It's Ld10 vs Ld7 or Ld8. If you want banner of discipline with goblins, you've got stick a naked BSB in the same unit as the general, which is not a good idea.

I have been using skarnsik and a naked BSB with standard of discipline in the same unit for a LD9 inspiring presence. it's a huge risk though, if that unit eats it, i'm out inspiring presence, and my re rolls.. which has led me to think about taking the spider banner in a horde of NG with spears. Do you view putting them together as just putting too many eggs in one basket if that unit is routed? Or are there other reasons I'm not seeing?

What would you suggest for an all goblin army's bsb setup?

skyfi wrote:

I have been using skarnsik and a naked BSB with standard of discipline in the same unit for a LD9 inspiring presence. it's a huge risk though, if that unit eats it, i'm out inspiring presence, and my re rolls.. which has led me to think about taking the spider banner in a horde of NG with spears. Do you view putting them together as just putting too many eggs in one basket if that unit is routed? Or are there other reasons I'm not seeing?
What would you suggest for an all goblin army's bsb setup?

It's not that all goblin armies don't work, it's that they are better off not being all goblin.
Take a small unit of big uns or black orcs. Have them stand in the center rear of the battle line. Buy the unit the banner of discipline. Buy an orc warboss, he's 50 more than the goblin lord, but doesn't panic from the rest of the army, and gives +1 LD (the rest doesn't matter).
That frees up your BSB to be a different target in a different unit.

Now if they take out the general, you still get re-rolls on Ld7 (goblin boss). If they take out the BSB, you're still Ld10 (orc warboss with magic banner).
If I was insisting on a visually all goblin army, I'd model up goblins standing on the backs of goblins, on 25mm bases, and call them goblin big uns (using orc big un rules).

By going the other route, a single spell could take out both characters. Or worse, lore of shadow could drop the movement of the general/BSB bus.
You're better off splitting them up to give a bigger bubble of influence.

As somebody said above, the biggest problem with all goblin armies is that you should just play skaven. Cheaper fodder, faster troops, better lores, better toys, and an army wide rule that helps, rather than hurts (animosity and fear elves).

-Matt

Be aware that most people playing Goblin armies play a themed army for fluff reasons alone, aware of their major downfalls. I don't think you'll find someone honestly claiming that Goblins are a truly competitive army

The Spider Banner is really bad. It's horrendously expensive to begin with. Now...

You, most of the time, get 7x4=28 attacks from a horde. With poison, that's about ~4.5 automatic wounds. Out of all attacks, you get about 14 hits in, minus the 6s, thus 8 remaining hits. Those wound at 4s (vs. average T3) and thus you got about 8.5 wounds caused before armor saves (I am pretty sure that math is wrong ).

Without the banner, instead of 6 auto-wounds, you'd average 3 normal wounds. Sounds good..before armor saves.

The problem is: you won't win fights with Goblins. Like...pretty much never. T3 and no armor means they'll die in droves to about anything that charges them and you will lose a lot of them. Goblins are supposed to be Steadfast and that's what they excel at, not fighting. Save those points and invest them into sth. more useful e.g. more Goblins.

Plus: with the banner, you are forced to have your BSB right at the front. That's where you never want to have him - a BSB is essential to Goblins. If he falls, you're a huge step closer to defeat.

As with any unit wide buff, the bigger the unit, the more you get out of the investment.

Since the BSB is dead if he's got a magic banner (5+ armor save will not keep him alive in combat), I'd look at 2 approaches.

Either a block of 200 goblins with short bows (20 wide, 10 deep, volley fire is 120 poison shots);
OR
50 Spider Riders with. With an 14" move, you can pretty effectively avoid combat. You're getting ~20 poison shots when you move, and 35 poison shots when you don't.
If you get into combat, you could get 10 S3 poison attacks on a 5+, and ~30 S4 poison attacks.

Plan A is shoot the enemy dead before combat.
Plan B is avoid combat, but get less shooting.

Plan C is the one that worked for me. Goblin BSB with poison banner in a unit of 30 arrer boyz, deployed inside a folding fortress. 30 Poison shots a turn @ 24" from the orcs and gives the army a good sized bubble of re-rolls.

-Matt

I can vouch for the Shortbow horde, even without poison shots. It's the setup I see run the most and I usually field at tournaments.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

skyfi wrote:

I have been using skarnsik and a naked BSB with standard of discipline in the same unit for a LD9 inspiring presence. it's a huge risk though, if that unit eats it, i'm out inspiring presence, and my re rolls.. which has led me to think about taking the spider banner in a horde of NG with spears. Do you view putting them together as just putting too many eggs in one basket if that unit is routed? Or are there other reasons I'm not seeing?
What would you suggest for an all goblin army's bsb setup?

It's not that all goblin armies don't work, it's that they are better off not being all goblin.
Take a small unit of big uns or black orcs. Have them stand in the center rear of the battle line. Buy the unit the banner of discipline. Buy an orc warboss, he's 50 more than the goblin lord, but doesn't panic from the rest of the army, and gives +1 LD (the rest doesn't matter).
That frees up your BSB to be a different target in a different unit.

Now if they take out the general, you still get re-rolls on Ld7 (goblin boss). If they take out the BSB, you're still Ld10 (orc warboss with magic banner).
If I was insisting on a visually all goblin army, I'd model up goblins standing on the backs of goblins, on 25mm bases, and call them goblin big uns (using orc big un rules).

By going the other route, a single spell could take out both characters. Or worse, lore of shadow could drop the movement of the general/BSB bus.
You're better off splitting them up to give a bigger bubble of influence.

As somebody said above, the biggest problem with all goblin armies is that you should just play skaven. Cheaper fodder, faster troops, better lores, better toys, and an army wide rule that helps, rather than hurts (animosity and fear elves).

-Matt

I understand that all-goblin armies would be better of by bringing orcs, or by playing skaven instead. I don't expect my army to be the "best off" by a long shot, or I wouldn't be considering a goblin force.. I just want my goblin force to perform the best that it can within its own limitations. I have considered adding an orc general for the reason you stated, (and didn't know black orcs could buy the +1 LD banner, thats really nice).

If I bring a black orc boss, or black orcs I feel like I will be destroying the theme of my army. I realize a pure NG army isn't the most competitive, but, when you win, it feels well deserved like I think many non-optimal armies' generals feel when they win a match. In any event, getting off topic.

As far as magic is concerned, I'm not worried about having my movement reduced, as i do relatively little movement with the units requiring the generals IP. I worry about my general and BSB both dying to a single spell however. I typically keep squigs on flanks with hoppas, wagons, manglers etc, outside of the bubble if necessary and those are the units that move for me. My movement with goblin units is usually just reforming a bit, wheeling around to direct overruns in case I fail steadfast LD9 with reroll. My smallest unit of archers will mobilize a bit to get shots off, but about it. I do understand the risks though, of failing animosity and my units getting out of range of a general/bsb unit with hampered movement. I try to keep them together to minimize this, but animosity is animosity, and strikes whenever it wills.

I understand the fact that goblin armies are thematic and not optimal, but if we wanted to play skaven, we would. We don't want to, so we don't!

Sigvatr wrote:Be aware that most people playing Goblin armies play a themed army for fluff reasons alone, aware of their major downfalls. I don't think you'll find someone honestly claiming that Goblins are a truly competitive army

The Spider Banner is really bad. It's horrendously expensive to begin with. Now...

You, most of the time, get 7x4=28 attacks from a horde. With poison, that's about ~4.5 automatic wounds. Out of all attacks, you get about 14 hits in, minus the 6s, thus 8 remaining hits. Those wound at 4s (vs. average T3) and thus you got about 8.5 wounds caused before armor saves (I am pretty sure that math is wrong ).

Without the banner, instead of 6 auto-wounds, you'd average 3 normal wounds. Sounds good..before armor saves.

The problem is: you won't win fights with Goblins. Like...pretty much never. T3 and no armor means they'll die in droves to about anything that charges them and you will lose a lot of them. Goblins are supposed to be Steadfast and that's what they excel at, not fighting. Save those points and invest them into sth. more useful e.g. more Goblins.

Plus: with the banner, you are forced to have your BSB right at the front. That's where you never want to have him - a BSB is essential to Goblins. If he falls, you're a huge step closer to defeat.

I worry most about the BSB's position like you ahve said. I typically never get him into combat because i'm a skurrrrrrdy cat. I didn't expect to win fights with the poison banner, but was going to use it as a means to drop high T targets.

My last game against demons, I rear charged a soul grinder with a 70 man spear bus and won after a round or 2. No poison just needing 6s, I'm liking the idea, of one unit ALWAYS having poison.. and then shamans buffing a different unit if need be. I figured I could position the block the BSB is in so he could "hop blocks" to whichever block would benefit most?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

HawaiiMatt wrote:As with any unit wide buff, the bigger the unit, the more you get out of the investment.

Since the BSB is dead if he's got a magic banner (5+ armor save will not keep him alive in combat), I'd look at 2 approaches.

Either a block of 200 goblins with short bows (20 wide, 10 deep, volley fire is 120 poison shots);
OR
50 Spider Riders with. With an 14" move, you can pretty effectively avoid combat. You're getting ~20 poison shots when you move, and 35 poison shots when you don't.
If you get into combat, you could get 10 S3 poison attacks on a 5+, and ~30 S4 poison attacks.

Plan A is shoot the enemy dead before combat.
Plan B is avoid combat, but get less shooting.

Plan C is the one that worked for me. Goblin BSB with poison banner in a unit of 30 arrer boyz, deployed inside a folding fortress. 30 Poison shots a turn @ 24" from the orcs and gives the army a good sized bubble of re-rolls.

-Matt

I have been avoiding blocks that large like the plague for the sole reason that I really, really, hate running risk of regular opponents getting withering and the other lower toughness spell, and dropping an entire block by reducing them to T0. Is my avoidance logical? Is my meta weird? Should I really not worry that much about it and just concede that I will lose a block like that to a spell combo as such once in a blue moon?

also matt, lol never seen a 20 wide NG horde! woah!

Sigvatr wrote:I can vouch for the Shortbow horde, even without poison shots. It's the setup I see run the most and I usually field at tournaments.

I typically run a 50 man shortbow horde bunker for skarsnik (or have been recently) and a smaller archer bus to escort casters around. (for manueverability) between a 50 man spear horde, a squig horde, and a shortbow-bunker-horde.. deployment gets quite tight.

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Gorbad wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

Shamgi wrote:
I'm bouncing back and forth between what army I'd like to start building when I get back stateside, and one of my ideas was a sneaky kind of all goblin list. Before I put a huge amount of thought into it, I wanted to see how effective such an army would be.

Anything goblin is fair game, and I'm not above a bit of other stuff as well, just as long as it's all about dirty tricks. Skulkers, Night Goblin tricks, goblin wizards, so on and so forth.

I figure my goal is to swamp my opponent in bodies, use something like wolves for flank charges, and depend on my dirty tricks to ruin my opponent's battle plan as much as possible.

I'd like to avoid big old giant beasts if possible(no spiders or giants), though pretty much anything else is fair game.

NG bunkers (normal Goblins have no purpose), flanking Squig Herders or Squig Herder Hordes, 2 Stone Lobbaz, 2 Doom Divaz, 2 Manger Squigs, a few Snotling Pump Wagons, a lvl 2 mage + a few lvl 1 mages, Goblin Waaaaghboss General, Goblin Gargboss BSB with Banner of Discipline, 1-2 units of 5 wolf riders, 2 Goblin Wolf Chariots. That's it

You might explain, that you judge from another point of view. Common unrestricted Warhammer has more uses for goblins or at least it seems like plus it plays out a lot different from my experience.

With all due respect, stop with those allusive posts. I am a lot more experienced than you both in un- and restriced comp and have been a TO for more than 2 years by now whereas you are relatively new to WHFB. If you got nothing to contribute but snarky comments, do us a favor and refrain from posting. Thanks.

Normal Goblins are, by all means, inferior to NG. By comparison, they simply have +1 LD but -1I. LD doesn't matter at all whereas having a higher I is a considerable advantage - not to mention NG are even 1 pt cheaper than regular Goblins and offer stuff like Fanatics and Nets. Plus they got Hatred (Dwarfs) which is situational but is a minor advantage Goblins cannot compensate.

So, I am interested in hearing the reasons why Goblins are more viable than NG. And point me to all the competitive goblin lists that use normal Goblins instead of NG. I'm eagerly waiting.

Your opinion does not matter at all to me. Random, unfunded opinions contribute nothing to a discussion. I got it down by numbers, you're free to disagree.

/e: Just saw that you're from Germany too - so in fact, you have never (!) played in a major tournament before. And now you're going to school me on tournaments? Step down.

What means relatively new for you? I started end of 4th edition so I wont say I am that new. I had a major break in 7th because well, I never liked it. But you should not take everything as a personal attack. I never intended to school you on tournaments but when I came back to dakka your posts kinda irritated me a lot because they were made with an ETC point of view at least it seems so and that is confusing as gak if someone dont know where your coming from. So relax sweety and dont groan to an old man. On the tournament thing, I guess I played tournaments before you were into Warhammer but that´s pretty irrelevant and doesnt count for anything. But I agree, I never played 7th or 6th ETC stuff, it was never my thing, never will be and so I just "know" about it from talking to participants and reading stuff about it. Nuff of this GAK from my side, just dont take everything to personal, if I feel to step on you it will be pretty clear. Everything else is just a friendly post.


Why Goblins arent useless is said already so no need for me to repost it.

All goblin armies aren't likely to win the majority of your games, but they are sure a fun army to lose with!

Most of us like winning, and watching our favorite army get torn to pieces is rather sad. But my crazy goblins always find crazier ways to die and result in a good time.

So I'd say build it! Have fun with it! Be daring and gobliny! Make tactile choices that would only make sense to those on mushrooms and always be sure to have more fanatics!

On a tactical note, I prefer to use smaller blocks of goblins, thie risk is greater but the reward can be amazing! Basically the idea is to set up a fanatic wave. Small units of archers out from with a fanatic each to handle chaff, with mid sized blocks of gobbos behind with more fanatics and nets to hold combat units in place for a turn or two. Then blocks of night goblins with Max fanatics, to launch into the the now pinned opponents. (using the back of your block as an easy way to Garuntee a hit the turn you walk into with in 8 inches)

One thing is sure to happen. Lots of models get removed!
The danger as always is flyers or fast cav which do the zig zag of moving into then out of the 8" range just to pop the fanatics

Back in the days where animosity was a real treat and O&G was a lot more " funnier" read crazy random some of us aimed for the goal to kill more of your own stuff than your opponent. It´s the most satisfying way to lose with O&G I think. It´s not that easy anymore but who cares? I mean I dont play O&G to have an elite army, I play O&G because Orcs are "better" and Goblins are nastier than everyone else. In fact, I cant lose with O&G. Maybe my horde wasnt strong enough but that just proofs that I need a tougher boss to impress Gork&Mork more to get more "lucky" with the dices. It´s all about the right mentality. Believe in your horde and win since you cant really lose.

I'm thinking of running my Goblin army with a BSB with the Bad Moon Banner. Is that just a bad idea?

Silver_skates wrote:
I'm thinking of running my Goblin army with a BSB with the Bad Moon Banner. Is that just a bad idea?

That is a bad idea.
Instead of the magic banner, you could just field more night goblins and be steadfast.
You get the same effect without the character getting murdered.

-Matt

Makes me wonder, can input crown of command on a shaman or wizard hat boss, then always deny challenges to go to back and hide, while still providing stubborn? Or does unit not get to use his crown as he's cowering? Under impression only can't use his LD or his banner re roll if he had one?

Thinking a mini speedbump archer block , no ranks but deploy in front of skarsniks horde, use generals IP, or could go 2 deep if wanted.. Could get all shots from all models each turn and use the crap unit to just die and make armies overrun into squigs or goblins, to be flanked by a nearby unit afterward?

Probably not most effective tactic but just occurred to me

skyfi wrote:
Makes me wonder, can input crown of command on a shaman or wizard hat boss, then always deny challenges to go to back and hide, while still providing stubborn? Or does unit not get to use his crown as he's cowering? Under impression only can't use his LD or his banner re roll if he had one?

Thinking a mini speedbump archer block , no ranks but deploy in front of skarsniks horde, use generals IP, or could go 2 deep if wanted.. Could get all shots from all models each turn and use the crap unit to just die and make armies overrun into squigs or goblins, to be flanked by a nearby unit afterward?

Probably not most effective tactic but just occurred to me

If the wizard is the only character, I'm not going to challenge, I'll just smack him.
If you have more than 1 character, I'll challenge, and then pick the other character to go to the back, and still smack the wizard.
The player who declines the challenge does not get to pick who goes to the rear, the challenging player does.

The crown only performs well if the character with it can survive in melee. Otherwise, you're better off just running deep units for steadfast.

The Steadfast Crown on a Goblin would be...not a good idea imo. If your Goblin units are not Steadfast, you did something wrong. Save the points and get more Goblins - it's a lot more effective.

Everything in the army book's equipment chapter is pretty much crap for Goblin armies and mostly overpriced. The poison banner can work but it's damn expensive.

Haha crown of command in wizard hat boss. Not had my coffee today. Woah.

Also forgot you get to pick/could his allocate normally with whoever in b2b.

Going to go do that coffee thing now.

Poison banner cant get you up to 20 wounds per shooting phase if you run a horde of bows and shaman which allows you to cast another poison on them. But never forget those are shortbows so not many rounds of shooting and not guaranteed that you will get the gift of the spidergod.