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Simple question, I suppose, but the answer could be tougher. Hard to Hit (page 81 of the rulebook) specifies that Blasts, Large Blasts and Templates can't *hit* Flyers in Zoom mode. However, that still allows them to target and therefore place the marker there, right? As per page 33 you don't roll To Hit with Blasts and the only other restrictions seem to be:

1) your target must be in range
2) your target must be an enemy model
3) you cannot place the marker over any friendly models.

You would have to have a model with Skyfire on a blast weapon to get around having to Snap Shot (page 81 again, that's referred to as "shots resolved at a Flyer" so not To Hit), but this can happen - as with Stormraven plasma cannons, or new Tau battlesuits. I'm thinking it could possibly cheese your way to "accidentally" scattering onto something nearby that might originally be out of line of sight or range.

I realise whether or not the Blast would then be able to allocate Wounds to that unit is COMPLETELY another question, so please ignore that bit for this thread. Is there anything stopping you from placing a blast marker on a Zooming Flyer, under the assumption that it won't hit it?

Sounds like the old "my tank has a multilaser and a heavy flamer, can i fire both at a unit that's 20" and use the flamer to hit a unit right in front of my tank?" which doesn't work because if you were out of range you missed automatically, and therefore the flamer doesn't fire.

I'd be inclined to read this the same way: Flyers are not targetable by blast weapons, therefore they miss automatically, so you don't roll to see if they hit other units, etc.

i'd have to dig up some page numbers for that though (and i suspect there'll be some interpretation required to make sense of it)

Pg 13. Those weapons cannot be "fired" as snap shots.

Super Ready wrote:You would have to have a model with Skyfire on a blast weapon to get around having to Snap Shot (page 81 again, that's referred to as "shots resolved at a Flyer" so not To Hit),

Fragile wrote:Pg 13. Those weapons cannot be "fired" as snap shots.

He's already thought of that




I'd say if you can't hit it, you can't fire it. So no craft placing of Templates on his base and allowing it to scatter.

chelsea_hollywood wrote:I'd be inclined to read this the same way: Flyers are not targetable by blast weapons, therefore they miss automatically, so you don't roll to see if they hit other units, etc.

With Blast in particular, you don't roll to hit - you simply place the marker. I agree they automatically miss the flyer, but that doesn't conflict with any of Blast's requirements on page 33.

Bloodhorror wrote:I'd say if you can't hit it, you can't fire it.

Again, hitting isn't one of page 33's requirements.

The whole crux of this trick is the difference between targetting and hitting, and the way that Blast ignores the latter. Good efforts, though... I'll be honest, I want to see this shot down as I wouldn't try it or wouldn't want it used on me, but just can't see anything stopping it.

No, rules as written you can indeed do it.

I wouldn't allow it if I were a TO, but you are technically correct. (The best kind of correct. ) In a friendly game I probably wouldn't argue too hard against it, though, since it's funny and it IS what the rules say.

I think this is one of those situations where it seems clear to me that the rule is intended to not allow blasts targetting flyers, and that this is a loophole in the wording. That is, of course, just my opinion.

Pg 19. You have no permission to fire the weapon, therefore there is no "hitting or missing" involved.

Fragile wrote:
Pg 19. You have no permission to fire the weapon, therefore there is no "hitting or missing" involved.

What rule are you seeing on page 19 that is relevant?

The Focus Fire rules would prevent this from working if you are focusing fire... but I don't see anything that would prevent you from aiming a Blast at a unit that it can't hit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 chelsea_hollywood wrote:
Sounds like the old "my tank has a multilaser and a heavy flamer, can i fire both at a unit that's 20" and use the flamer to hit a unit right in front of my tank?" which doesn't work because if you were out of range you missed automatically, and therefore the flamer doesn't fire.

It's a slightly different situation. In that scenario, the flamer doesn't fire because it is out of range. Against the flyer, range isn't the issue... it just can't be hit.

Fragile wrote:
Pg 19. You have no permission to fire the weapon, therefore there is no "hitting or missing" involved.

Not seeing anything relevant on page 19 either if you meant the Snap Shot thing on page 13, I've already covered it. I'm specifically talking about using a model with Skyfire to fire the blast - it's then not a Snap shot, the model uses its own BS and we're told that shots at ground targets would be Snap shots instead (page 42).

Given the clarification on p 42, wouldn't that mean that the blast couldn't hit anyone on the ground? Or am I misunderstanding?

To which clarification are you referring?

Hmmm, not sure why I put 19 there.. It was 13 as referenced above.. Anyways.. the answer would still be a no. T, B, LBs cannot be fired as snap shots. If you are using Skyfire any shots vs anything other than the Flyer would be resolved as snap shots, which contradicts the snap shot rule.

Skyfire and Interceptor might be a quandary though.

Flyers cant shoot blast weapons against other flyers, skyfire or no skyfire, blast weapons cannot hit a flyer (Why the best weapon against Chaos Bale Dragons is other flyers)... They would not be able to hit ground targets if using skyfire to fire a plasma cannon at ground targets, but you would just not select skyfire as the firing mode... If this meant you have to hover then that's the price you pay for using Plasma cannons...

Fragile wrote:
Hmmm, not sure why I put 19 there.. It was 13 as referenced above.. Anyways.. the answer would still be a no. T, B, LBs cannot be fired as snap shots. If you are using Skyfire any shots vs anything other than the Flyer would be resolved as snap shots, which contradicts the snap shot rule.

Skyfire and Interceptor might be a quandary though.

They are not shooting at ground targets and therefore do not need to make snap shots at them. In fact in this case they are not shooting at ground targets at all. There is just no rule that I can find that protects ground targets from blasts fired with skyfire at flyers and swooping FMCs should they happen to be under the blast marker.

I wouldn't play it this way but it's correct per RAW.

Well if the model has skyfire he is required to snap shot at anything that is not a Swooping FMC or Zooming Flyer. The blast can not be snap shot so you could not hit any ground targets if you target the flyer initially.

Everyone, I am SO sorry for wasting your time. I had another look through the FAQ and came across this:

Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon
that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with
Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes
weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the
Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic
powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and
novas.

Simply having Skyfire doesn't get around this. So even when you have Skyfire on a blast weapon, you still can't fire it at Flyers.
Seems silly but I suppose it avoids any unusual situations like this one.

Thanks Ready forgot about that FAQ, I was going to reply in reference to the warp storm table results in which blast markers are used (at least two of them I think), I would never play it as the blast marker could hit the flyer but it could scatter off and hit opponents models or my models (I did have someone make me do it in case it scattered into my own units, did it as I didnt have time to think over the reasons as to why I couldnt)

Say the blast weapon had Skyfire (i.e., Riptide with Ion Accelerator and a Velocity Tracker), it could shoot the flyer, right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Never mind, I'm wrong. Page 81 makes it VERY clear. Sorry for posting without double checking my logic.

Does this mean if I hug the base of my nightscythe with necron warriors when they get out, a blast can't be placed on one of them if it would also touch the flyers base?

 RobPro wrote:
Does this mean if I hug the base of my nightscythe with necron warriors when they get out, a blast can't be placed on one of them if it would also touch the flyers base?

No, because you're targeting the warriors (which is fine), it just means the flyer can't be hit by the blast

This is one of those "Common Sense" things, it is technically permissible, but really against what the rules are trying to say.

That said, HIWPI: there is one situation where I would allow the targeting and associate backwash: barrage weapons. If you were to target a barrage, skyfire weapon at a flyer I would be fine with that, it still cannot hit like any other blast/template weapons but I would allow it to scatter on to any ground models and hit them. I would not allow the skyfire normal blasts and templates to hit from targeted flyers/FMCs though. Again pure house rule HIWPI.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
This is one of those "Common Sense" things, it is technically permissible, but really against what the rules are trying to say.

That said, HIWPI: there is one situation where I would allow the targeting and associate backwash: barrage weapons. If you were to target a barrage, skyfire weapon at a flyer I would be fine with that, it still cannot hit like any other blast/template weapons but I would allow it to scatter on to any ground models and hit them. I would not allow the skyfire normal blasts and templates to hit from targeted flyers/FMCs though. Again pure house rule HIWPI.

You can't. Blast/Template or non rolling-to-hit weapons can not "target" a flyer at all, it's in the FAQ.

"Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. "

What page of the FAQ? Because I looked through pages 1-8 of the most recent FAQ and it says no such thing(unless i missed it)

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
What page of the FAQ? Because I looked through pages 1-8 of the most recent FAQ and it says no such thing(unless i missed it)

It was posted further up the page:

Q: How do maelstroms, novas and beams – or indeed any weapon
that doesn’t need to roll To Hit or hits automatically – interact with
Zooming Flyers and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatures? (p13)
A: Only Snap Shots can hit Zooming Flyers and Swooping
Flying Monstrous Creatures. Therefore, any attacks that use
blast markers, templates, create a line of/area of effect or
otherwise don’t roll to hit cannot target them. This includes
weapons such as the Necron Doom Scythe’s death ray or the
Deathstrike missile of the Imperial Guard, and psychic
powers that follow the rule for maelstroms, beams, and
novas.

Ah, that is an odd page number to cite these rules, the flyer pages would have been better as this seems to indicate that even skyfire weapons/models cannot hit zooming Flyers and flying monstrous creatures since those are not snap shots.

I hate to say it but using that FAQ to negate the loophole is silly. You cannot allow that answer to negate Skyfire which overrules it and makes it clear you can fire at them as normal. Allowing this answer to override Skyfire would break the SR and make it so they cannot hit flyers and swooping FMCs at all with anything because they are not firing snap shots. The second part of the answer is started with 'Therefore...' causing it to be dependent on the first part to be true and since the first part does not apply to skyfire models the argument falls apart.

 Abandon wrote:
I hate to say it but using that FAQ to negate the loophole is silly. You cannot allow that answer to negate Skyfire which overrules it and makes it clear you can fire at them as normal. Allowing this answer to override Skyfire would break the SR and make it so they cannot hit flyers and swooping FMCs at all with anything because they are not firing snap shots. The second part of the answer is started with 'Therefore...' causing it to be dependent on the first part to be true and since the first part does not apply to skyfire models the argument falls apart.

Skyfire ONLY allows you to shoot at flyers using your normal BS. There is zero other permission for skyfire to override any other restrictions of hard to hit.

Also, if a weapon can not hit a target, it automatically misses which means it doesn't fire at all. Either way you look at this, it can't happen.

 Kevin949 wrote:

 Abandon wrote:
I hate to say it but using that FAQ to negate the loophole is silly. You cannot allow that answer to negate Skyfire which overrules it and makes it clear you can fire at them as normal. Allowing this answer to override Skyfire would break the SR and make it so they cannot hit flyers and swooping FMCs at all with anything because they are not firing snap shots. The second part of the answer is started with 'Therefore...' causing it to be dependent on the first part to be true and since the first part does not apply to skyfire models the argument falls apart.

Skyfire ONLY allows you to shoot at flyers using your normal BS. There is zero other permission for skyfire to override any other restrictions of hard to hit.

Also, if a weapon can not hit a target, it automatically misses which means it doesn't fire at all. Either way you look at this, it can't happen.

Yes, my point exactly. Models/weapons with skyfire use their full BS.... which is something other than a snapshot. By clear context this negates the entire FAQ ruling for units with the SR. Nothing in the Hard To Hit SR itself negates the ability of a Skyfire model/weapon to fire at them with a blast weapon, only the ability to hit them.

I agree that it's very poorly written in the FAQ, and the Skyfire and Snap Shot rules themselves (what a surprise!). But on the other hand, that "therefore" qualifier in the FAQ makes it quite clear that that particular question relates to blasts, beams, novas etc. *ONLY*. So RAI here is quite clear.

rules as written disallow it because you must fire snapshots at fliers.

blasts can never be shot as snapshots

gg

skyfire blasts work though