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I know we always have threads going on about this subject, but I wanted to get my fellow dakkians thoughts on my 2 theories.

First is my theroy on the second legion...I know its far fetched, but kind of fun.



It is written that the two unknown legions are known as the "lost and the forgotten"

I think it may be possible that the second legions primarch was a Blank of unpresidented power. Along with his legion. After his discovery by the emperor the 2nd legion primarch went on to crusade for the emperor just as hard and successfully as any of his other brothers.

However the second Primarch never got along well with any of his brothers. With their yet undiscovered latent psyhic powers they just couldn't stand being in the presence of their Brother Primarch, especially Magnus. The emperor had his misgivings as well, since the second Primarch could see him for what he truly was.

Most Humans saw the emperor as he wanted himself to be seen, the epitome of perfect humanity. Tall, handsome, and unfathabily strong. However the Second Primarch saw him for what he was, a normal man with a immense precence in the warp. (This is strongly eluded to in the book "outcast dead")

I think the emperor was at a loss as to what to do about his 2nd son. He was faithful and a dedicated warrior to the ideaism of the fledging Imperium, however knew that his son could be a future liability. However the emperor knew that eventually the legion could be a hinging factor in defeating the forces of chaos in a time of emergency. The Emperor knew that he had truly pissed off the Big 4 Chaos gods with his intentions to conquer the galaxy, rid humanity of pagen beliefs, and get away from using warp driven ships for transportation and switch to human built gateways The empeors comprimise with the 2nd primarch was a bold one. Leaving Malacador to supervise, the entire 2nd legion to include the Primarch were put into stasis deep within the catacombs of the largest moon of Saturn....Titan. Only to be awaken during a time of absolute emergency.

Long story short I believe the small wooden box that the Grand master of the knights is a switch which will deactivate the stasis containers of the 2nd legion.


I like to think that Magnus and the unknown primarch of the 11th legion were buddies. It is mentioned in the various HH novels that the pod to the 11th primarch was damaged directly before the scattering. Herego the 11th primarch was more suspeptiable to the warp during his transit.

Him and magus became good buddies since they both had one thing in common...mutation. In being good buddies both legions exchanged warriors to accompany each others legions during the great crusade. This is not uncommon from what we read about it happening with other legions.

I like to believe that the 11th primarch started relying heavily on bio/genetic research to cure his sons of mutation, and finally succeeded with a small number of his seed which eventually came to be the blood ravens. The Emperor was pissed off with him for messing with the recipe for the adaptus Astartes. decided to cull the primarch and his legion after the 11th refused to stop his research. In a brief gambit, sent his successfully repaired genesons to crusade with magnus in secret.

Eventually Magnus would earn the Ire of the emperor and knew that he himself was going to be possibly destroyed for his refusal to obide with the dicatates of the nikea decree. He hoped that perhaps the emperor would have mercy for him, but certainly not if the emperor found that he had been hiding an entire companies worth of 11th legion brothers within his own legion. Magnus then sent the 4th company away from propero with the 11th legion survivors to live on another day.

Eventually the 4th would be brought back into the fold of imperial SM chapters, with the secret intact. This would also go on to explain why the blood ravens are such a secretive chapter.


I know i have a flare for the dramatic.


Also as a side note, I posted these theories in the bloodravens thread, but thought maybe they deserved a second look in its own thread.

What do you guys think?

As far as your theory for the 2nd Legion and their stasis pods, I'd have thought a loyal, full strength legion of psychic blanks would have been awoken and enlisted during the heresy. What with Lorgar and Magnus both being psychic monstrosities, their Primarch would have been a useful ally.

Also, at various points in the HH novels, it's mentioned by Primarchs that it's forbidden to speak of their missing brothers, which wouldn't really be the case if one of them was only chilling, guiltless on Titan.

The most promising theory I've heard regarding the missing Primarchs is that at least 1 of them was a pacifist.
He would have landed on a peaceful world, been raised well in an atmosphere free from war, and then been found in adulthood as some kind of spiritual leader of his people. He may have got on well with the Emperor when he was first found, admiring his vision of a united humanity, but once he came to understand the methods of compliance and the military goals of the imperium, he'd have refused to lead a legion.

I imagine that his refusal to do as the Emperor commanded led to him being killed by Russ, almost certainly willingly, and without a fight.
Just a thought.

Well your ideas are not farfetched compared to anything else in 40K except they do not fit in at all with what has been published in the HH books.

In Mechanicum when Dorn is wistful about the lost legions Malcador in no uncertain terms tells him to remember his vow of silence and that they are lost FOREVER.

What completely seals the deal for me that the primarchs were killed and the legions destroyed and or dispersed is the conversation between Magnus and Lorgar.

Lorgar is scared shitless that the Emperor might break him and the WB, like he did the two missing legions. Magnus replies that it was discussed and that Leman Russ spoke in favor of not destroying Lorgar and that was the only thing he and Russ had ever agreed on.

Now, while the interpretation of background material can be varied, when the Emperor of Mankind BREAKS something, Humpty Dumpty can not be put back together again.

After the betrayal at Isvaan when Corax is in the special area of the palace for the Primarchs he notes that there are 20 suites and reflects that if this place had been built recently there would have been fewer.

Because the crusade had been going on for a couple of centuries by then and he uses the time reference, recent, it suggests to me that the missing legions must have been participating in the crusade for some length of time and further weakening your ideas about them.

I have been trying to create a creditable theory based on the missing legions for a while now, so I understand the desire to muse in a way that adheres to the current fluff.

Since every other primarch is in some kind of stasis anyway(Robute and the Lion) the idea that maybe the Primarch may be in stasis, but as others have said the entire legion maybe a stretch.

If you want to do a stasis based theory, in my opinion it has to be a reason that makes this legion/primarch too dangerous to let loose, but also too vital/powerful to waste. That is a tough one and I am sorry that I don't have a better theory to offer.

My theory is that one Primarch betrayed the other, either apart of a larger plot or just a personal grudge, and then Russ killed the betrayer. Yet this is WAY too much like the HH, so I am convinced that the emperor wanted one or both Primarchs silenced so that they could not reveal something that threatened his plans for the imperium. Whether that was the existence of chaos, or even the true nature of the emperor, it had to be something that scared the emperor enough to completely remove them from memory. So that no one could investigate who they were, what they did, or what they knew.

My theory involves the Mechanicus, that one of these legions were meant to take control over Mars eventually, and name their Primarch leader of entire Mechanicus religion/empire. If Mars found out they would have revolted against the emperor, and he would have been royally screwed.

I do like the idea of a legion of blanks, and that has always seemed like an original idea that doesn't make this legion overpowered, while also explaining a natural dislike of them, by their fellow asartes.

Those are some cool ideas. IDK if this still holds up, but Rick Priestly said that the he got the idea of the two missing legions from Ancient Rome. In that society, if a unit/army/general, etc. did something horrible, but later redeemed itself somehow then it would simply be removed from existence. No one would know about the atrocity they committed, but no one would know about their great victory either. So the two missing legions each supposedly did something very terrible that they later made up for and were thus removed from Imperial records as a sort of "reward" for making things right again. Because of that, I always pictured the missing two as legions that joined Horus initially but changed their minds once they saw what Chaos was really all about. I figured at that point they did something amazing to sacrifice themselves in the name of the Big E. I kind of like the OP's ideas better though!

^^ that is also a great theory. Perhaps after Russ destroyed their Homeworld the survivors fled, only return to play a significant part in the heresy.
It seems from what has been said already, Lorgar knew and maybe even liked one/both of them, Russ supposedly killed one/both of them, and Dorn believed that one/both of them could be called upon I some way to aid in the Heresy. In the case of Dorn he could have just wished he had their legions to call upon, rather than believing they were still around.
Those three knew, or had a better knowledge of the missing Primarchs then the others.
I have said in another forum on this subject that Sangiunius hid the Red Thirst from the emperor so that he would not destroy his legion/history, so mutation also seems to play a part in the missing primarchs.
I just wished they would officially say whether or not they legions were absorbed into the Ultramarines. It seems that the only way to create a successor chapter of the lost legions is if Robute organized it himself and their geneseed would have to be almost identical to the Ultramarines. Otherwise the High Lord of Terra wouldn't allow a founding using that geneseed, neither would the Inquisition.

The author of the book with the line about the Ultramarines has stated several times that it is just scandalous gossip by the Word Bearers, neither lost legion was absorbed by the XIII. It's also not certain that Russ took out either legion, the line about Astartes fighting Astartes having happened before could just as easily be about Russ and Angron fighting with their legions.

Great theories in the OP though.

One of them have to be Kaldor Draigo, how else do anyone explain his fluff?

Thanks for the responses fellas. Someday perhaps we will hear some real lore regarding this topic....

I wouldn't hold my breath though :(

I believe that a one primarch died in his stasis pod. The other led his legion into alliance with xenos and was killed for it.

We do know some things

One legion was killed off by the Space Wolves and the other was folded into the Ultramarines.

As to the why or what happened to their Primarchs, that's the only mystery left

I think one primarch was Keith Richards and the other one was mentally challenged and killed...o wait Angron wasn't killed

 Lobukia wrote:
We do know some things

One legion was killed off by the Space Wolves and the other was folded into the Ultramarines.

As to the why or what happened to their Primarchs, that's the only mystery left

Wrong.

Aaron Dembski-Bowden has stated several times that the Word Bearers are just bitter and making excuses for the Ultramarines being huge. All members of the XIII legion has the gee seed of Roboute Guilliman, this is confirmed fact. It doesn't get much more solid than the author of he book that started the rumour stating it being bollocks.

Now show me where it says Russ took out a legion. Bearing in mind that the line about Astartes fighting Astartes before Prospero is about Russ and his Wolves fighting with Angron to try and teach them a lesson.

Okay based on that we are back at square one. Not destroyed by Russ,or folded into the Ultra's. Is that line about them being referred to as "the lost" and "the purged" incorrect as well?

I was pretty sure that Russ and the Wolves murdered another legion, unless that conversation was about something else entirely.

Musselman wrote:
Okay based on that we are back at square one. Not destroyed by Russ,or folded into the Ultra's. Is that line about them being referred to as "the lost" and "the purged" incorrect as well?

Not incorrect, just unclear if one is lost and one is purged, or if they have both been lost and purged.

 Lobukia wrote:
We do know some things

One legion was killed off by the Space Wolves and the other was folded into the Ultramarines.

As to the why or what happened to their Primarchs, that's the only mystery left

We do know some things.

One legion was NOT killed off by the Space Wolves and the other was NOT folded into the Ultramarines



God it always blows my minds how people keep saying that. Especially on topics where several people have previously said how those events are not true

 Sir Samuel Buca wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
We do know some things

One legion was killed off by the Space Wolves and the other was folded into the Ultramarines.

As to the why or what happened to their Primarchs, that's the only mystery left

Wrong.

Aaron Dembski-Bowden has stated several times that the Word Bearers are just bitter and making excuses for the Ultramarines being huge. All members of the XIII legion has the gee seed of Roboute Guilliman, this is confirmed fact. It doesn't get much more solid than the author of he book that started the rumour stating it being bollocks.

Now show me where it says Russ took out a legion. Bearing in mind that the line about Astartes fighting Astartes before Prospero is about Russ and his Wolves fighting with Angron to try and teach them a lesson.

Battle of the Fang page wrote:For every Legion he created, there was a purpose. Some were blessed with the power to build, or the skill to administer, or the capacity for stealth. Our gift was different. We were made to destroy. Our whole being is destruction. Such was the will of the Allfather. He made us not to construct empires but to murder them. We were bred to perform the tasks that no other Legion could, to fight with such extravagance that even our brother warriors would shrink from treachery in the knowledge of what we, the Rout, would do to them.
‘That power was exercised more than once. Most famously, as you know, against the enemy who now hammers at our doors.

Also the quote from Prospero Burns is more then just Astartes fighting Astartes:

Prospero Burns wrote:‘The unprecedented. Like… Astartes fighting Astartes? Like the Rout being called to sanction another Legion?’
‘That?’ he answers. He laughs, but it is a sad sound. ‘Hjolda, no. That’s not unprecedented.’

The SW are clearly not sent to kill Angron because they don't when thay had the chance. Sure the Night of the Wolf could explain the "Astartes fighting Astartes" part of it but not the "Sanction" part. And its clear from the Battle of the Fang/Prospero Burns quotes that the SW believe they have been called to sanction another legion more then once.

Well all the posts that are hopeful about one of the legions being in stasis still have not addressed the conversation between Lorgar and Magnus. It seems like those two would know what happened since they are talking about it and Lorgar unambiguously states that the legions and primarchs were broken. Moreover he is quite fearful that the same thing could happen to him.

I really dont know how much more it needs to be spelled out to people, apparently a lot though.

JWhex wrote:
Well all the posts that are hopeful about one of the legions being in stasis still have not addressed the conversation between Lorgar and Magnus. It seems like those two would know what happened since they are talking about it and Lorgar unambiguously states that the legions and primarchs were broken. Moreover he is quite fearful that the same thing could happen to him.

I really dont know how much more it needs to be spelled out to people, apparently a lot though.

Hm...
Don't you mean Horus and Sanguinius? When Angel boy is mentioning the empty plynth ?

 DarthMarko wrote:

JWhex wrote:
Well all the posts that are hopeful about one of the legions being in stasis still have not addressed the conversation between Lorgar and Magnus. It seems like those two would know what happened since they are talking about it and Lorgar unambiguously states that the legions and primarchs were broken. Moreover he is quite fearful that the same thing could happen to him.

I really dont know how much more it needs to be spelled out to people, apparently a lot though.

Hm...
Don't you mean Horus and Sanguinius? When Angel boy is mentioning the empty plynth ?

No I mean the conversation between Magnus and Lorgar in the first Heretic. Its more than the just the usual 1 line throw away. Lorgar is scared crapless that the Emperor is going to "BREAK" him and his legion. Magnus confirms that the possibility was discussed but refuses to tell Lorgar which primarchs wanted him killed and which ones didnt, except he does say that Leman Russ was in favor of NOT killing Lorgar.

You really cant read this section of the First Heretic and come away with the idea that those legions were not destroyed. All this suspended animation theory is pretty much nonsense and wishful thinking. Before the HH series, it was wide open as to the fate of those legions, now it is clear that the legions are deader than a Red Shirt Enterprise crewman with no name on his first mission planetside in the opening scene of a Star Trek episode.

 Galdos wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
We do know some things

One legion was killed off by the Space Wolves and the other was folded into the Ultramarines.

As to the why or what happened to their Primarchs, that's the only mystery left

We do know some things.

One legion was NOT killed off by the Space Wolves and the other was NOT folded into the Ultramarines



God it always blows my minds how people keep saying that. Especially on topics where several people have previously said how those events are not true

Except, for the literate with a memory that own books where the Rout says that they HAVE done exactly that. So besides where it says that did it, it doesn't say anywhere that they did it

As far as ADB shooting it down, he didn't. I love the guy but he's infamous for saying too much, revealing too much, post pics of unreleased FW models etc. What he said was that the soldiers talking was supposed to be taken as conjecture and not fact... right, or he said too much and was pulling a CYA.

I always liked the idea of the purged primarch being raised on a chaos worshipping world and became a high priest of the pantheon before the Emperor caught up with them. Then they were purged by elements of the Death Guard and Word Bearers (so that typhus, erebus and kor phaeron learn't more of chaos) and under Russ' overall command

I don't buy that the legions are dead and gone.

The Lost Legions exist IRL so that players can have their own custom space marine chapters and not claim to be from a primarch we know of.

Now in 40k Fiction the matter can be left up to conjecture, personally I believe the "Lost" was purged (maybe by the wolves) but not completely destroyed and fled into the Eye of Terror, thereby being "lost".

As for the "Forgotten", I actually believe he was literally forgotten, in that something Chaosy blocked the Empy from finding him. So basically in my own personal little corner of 40k fiction I think that one Primarch was basically never found and simply chalked up to being "gone", maybe he is still out there ruling over a planet or maybe he got taken by chaos, maybe he found a race of young upstarts and convinced a charismatic group of them he was a god, these "prophets" then unite their fledgling empire under the banner of a "greater good".

2x210 wrote:I don't buy that the legions are dead and gone.

The Lost Legions exist IRL so that players can have their own custom space marine chapters and not claim to be from a primarch we know of.

Now in 40k Fiction the matter can be left up to conjecture, personally I believe the "Lost" was purged (maybe by the wolves) but not completely destroyed and fled into the Eye of Terror, thereby being "lost".

As for the "Forgotten", I actually believe he was literally forgotten, in that something Chaosy blocked the Empy from finding him. So basically in my own personal little corner of 40k fiction I think that one Primarch was basically never found and simply chalked up to being "gone", maybe he is still out there ruling over a planet or maybe he got taken by chaos, maybe he found a race of young upstarts and convinced a charismatic group of them he was a god, these "prophets" then unite their fledgling empire under the banner of a "greater good".

'fraid there's some counter evidence to this.

Laurie Goulding has previously listed the order of the Primarch's discovering, indicating that they all had been discovered:

Horus
Leman Russ
DELETED FROM IMPERIAL RECORDS
Ferrus Manus
Fulgrim
Vulkan
Rogal Dorn
Roboute Guilliman
Magnus the Red
Sanguinius
Lion El'Jonson
Perturabo
Mortarion
Lorgar
Jaghatai Khan
Konrad Curze
Angron
Corax
DELETED FROM IMPERIAL RECORDS
Alpharius Omegon

Also, the idea that one was forgotten and the other purged may be incorrect, as addressed by Lexicanum, here:

lexicanum wrote:The lost Primarchs/Legions are referred to as 'the forgotten and the purged'. This could simply be a way of describing traitors, or they are references to the individual legions (i.e.-one legion "the forgotten" and the other "the purged")

Lobukia wrote:

 Galdos wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
We do know some things

One legion was killed off by the Space Wolves and the other was folded into the Ultramarines.

As to the why or what happened to their Primarchs, that's the only mystery left

We do know some things.

One legion was NOT killed off by the Space Wolves and the other was NOT folded into the Ultramarines



God it always blows my minds how people keep saying that. Especially on topics where several people have previously said how those events are not true

Except, for the literate with a memory that own books where the Rout says that they HAVE done exactly that. So besides where it says that did it, it doesn't say anywhere that they did it

As far as ADB shooting it down, he didn't. I love the guy but he's infamous for saying too much, revealing too much, post pics of unreleased FW models etc. What he said was that the soldiers talking was supposed to be taken as conjecture and not fact... right, or he said too much and was pulling a CYA.

I agree he has a habit of saying too much, but this didn't really seem to be a case of it, rather than clearing up conjecture he didn't intend to be taken so seriously. The Ultramarines are so large because of Guilliman's abilities and the fact they recruit from 500 worlds; it's nothing to do with a missing Legion.


Bottom line: there's no actual answer to any speculation on the missing Legion's, as GW/BL themselves haven't decided. It's probably the same situation with the origins of the Blood Ravens.
Doesn't mean that personal theories aren't welcome though (OP)!

Here you go:
http://www.flashgitz.net/2012/09/humble-beginnings.html

Now we know what happened to the XI legion!

In all seriousness though, based on this:

"...more and more of us were falling prey to [the flesh change] and the voices of our persecutors were growing ever more strident. There was even talk of disbanding us and expunging us from Imperial history." Ahriman in a Thousand Sons. p386

It seems like really bad mutations could be a reason that a legion could be deleted from the records. Maybe the II and XI legions had some terrible flaws that couldn't be allowed to continue?

 cpyke wrote:
Here you go:
http://www.flashgitz.net/2012/09/humble-beginnings.html

Now we know what happened to the XI legion!

In all seriousness though, based on this:

"...more and more of us were falling prey to [the flesh change] and the voices of our persecutors were growing ever more strident. There was even talk of disbanding us and expunging us from Imperial history." Ahriman in a Thousand Sons. p386

It seems like really bad mutations could be a reason that a legion could be deleted from the records. Maybe the II and XI legions had some terrible flaws that couldn't be allowed to continue?

You know, despite all the comedic aspects of that, I quite like that interpretation.

Both Legions probaly got sent deep deep DDEEPPPPPP into the Ghoul Stars system or somewhere else......

How about this theory then. I don't know if it would stand up to the bits already alluded to with the HH series but, it's just a suggestion.

Following Chaos whisking away the Primarchs, they all land on separate planets. However, like Alpharius and Omegon, the Primarchs of the II and XI Legions land on the same planet by chance, but are found, and raised, by two rival nations. Having been raised to hate each other since birth, they both rise, by virtue of their genetic enhancement, to be the leaders of the rival nations. They proceed to plunge said world into a cataclysmic war which is only halted by the arrival of the Emperor and his legions, who proceed to take the Primarchs away (Similar to Angron's forced removal). Despite learning they are brothers they still hate each other and the Emperor is forced to deploy them apart from each other during the Great Crusade. However, whether because of a mis-read order, chance, or because the Legions are spread too thin, the II and XI Legions are forced to deploy to the same planet. They proceed to go hell for leather at each other, waging war across the planet's surface. The two legions annihilate each other, with barely a few hundred of the XI Legion left standing. At this point, having rushed as fast as he could, the Emperor arrives, and enraged by the wanton waste of life, instructs the other legions to 'purge' the remnants of the XI Legion and to 'Forget' the II Legion.

Hence, it ties in with the 'purged and forgotten'. I mean, this is just my theory, but I don't know if it stands up to the fluff so far.

Another less likely theory could be that while one legion met one fate, the other legion was almost destroyed and the existence of 'Omegon' was in fact just one of the lost Primarchs who had his face changed and was inducted into the Alphamarines to cover up his Legion's destruction.

I like the idea that they both landed on the same planet, but unfortunately we know this wasn't the case. One was found 3rd, the other second to last.

I've lately had the idea that one was disgraced and expunged, with the other being his only defender. Close brothers that needed to both be purged to stop a huge war.